Large Map and New Civilizations are now playable

[Alexius08]

I ran some Dutch starts to see if the 600 AD scenario produced any regular patterns on regent/normal:

Dutch start 1:
-founded Protestantism
-Italian New World conquerors
-Portuguese Recife is the only non-conqueror New World colony
-Spain never conquered Cordoba
-Russia never conquered Kazan or Astrakhan
-Turkey didn't conquer Constantinople
-England, France, and Italy are the only other Europeans in the Renaissance
-Indrapura never conquered, but Vietnam had its other cities
-no China or Korea, weak Java, strong Mughals

Dutch start 2:
-founded Protestantism
-Portuguese conquerors on Aztecs, Inca uncontacted
-zero New World colonies
-Spain took Cordoba
-Vikings own Paris
-Russia took Kazan but not Astrakhan
-England and Vikings are the only other Europeans in the Renaissance (France is still building archers because Holy Rome took their iron due to lack of Paris)
-Indrapura never conquered, Vietnam bottled up in Hanoi
-China going strong, Korea dead, weak Java

Dutch start 3:
-founded Protestantism
-Aztecs and Inca uncontacted
-zero New World colonies
-Spain took Cordoba but Moor culture is overtaking Andalusia
-Spain owns Bordeaux
-Russia took Kazan and Astrakhan
-England and Italy are the only other Europeans in the Renaissance
-Indrapura never conquered, Vietnam bottled up in Hanoi
-China going strong, Korea dead, strong Java, weak Mughals
-somehow Thailand collapsed, I've never seen that so early
-Ethiopia and Nubia carved up independent Egypt
-Iran founded Baku, which I never see, so that was cool

The constants here are that Europe is regularly behind on technology compared to where it should be, so no one is colonizing and they're barely exploring by 1580. France is especially weak, so weak that Spain is no longer the worst performer (I think Barcelona not flipping to Moors on spawn has helped a bit, though the Reconquista is still by no means guaranteed). Indrapura is also an insanely tough independent city, I'm not convinced the AI is capable of taking it.

Ran 3 starting saves for Canada from the 600 AD scenario at normal/regent. Besides Protestantism being consistently founded on Amsterdam, the tech situation in the resulting saves end up being similar to the 1700 AD starts at spawn time. Either Chateau Frontenac is already built (once by Mughals, once by Germany) or someone has researched the techs for it (both France and Japan reached Refining). Weirdly, for one of the saves, no cities were founded in Canada's area at all.

 

[Osborneman]

Tried Holy Roman - well, it wasn't easy in 1.17 to take Jerusalem - good luck to Dues Vult now
It's take quite long time to get there by land. And you cant reach it by sea - Arabian heavy galley will eat your Cogs (well, maybe its best way to get where, need to try). And Arabia usually now quite strong

P/S While i was heading to Jerusalem - all began DOW to me. Poland, Turic, even Nubia
Taking Rome with started army - possible. Skip Venice and go to Rome
UPD. With some luck it can be done

I have done Austria UHV1, the way I did it was to take Rome ASAP with the starting army then build 2-3 cogs as quickly as possible in Rome to ferry over a few Lancers/Trebs and just hope Yerushalayim is weakly defended. You don't need to declare on Arabia until you're in position to move in and disembark your units, in which case if they destroy your cogs they've already done their job.

 

[Maggy_domain]

The maintenance is an absolute overkill for Russia. Even with just 6 cities, I can't imagine at all how am I supposed to get 10 cities in Siberia when I'm just barely able to sustain those 6 cities only controlling half of the Eastern European part of Russia which then also affects my science progress.

Besides making buildings that would at least barely keep me afloat in terms of money and production I also somehow need to process all these tiles so that the cities stopped being a huge waste of money. And for that I need not one, but dozen and many more workers which I'll also have to take a crazy amount of time to produce as the production until then remains terrible, a time I could spent onto constructing forges, katorgas, libraries, markets, military units and a lot more stuff, all of which also would take an insane amount of time because of production levels. And let's not forget the events which from time to time just destroy the tile improvements and buildings that took so much time and effort to make.

It's just insanity, especially for my gameplay style, I'll gladly wait until the final version of the update when this hopefully gets at least barely manageable.

I'm in the middle of a Russia game, currently at around 1840 going for the third UHV. I wanted to write down a guide at some point but in the meantime I can chip in here.

I cracked the 1st UHV thanks to @Osborneman suggestion: stay away from the steppe. these keshiks are ungoldly annoying and you dont have resources to defend your borders. Conquer Kyiv, Riga (if founded) and Kazan. Settle everything in between. I ran elective initially, to cope against the unimproved land. Plus caste system, theocracy. In the meantime Leoreth buffed manoralism, so this is probably what I would now go for. In my war for Riga, I spotted a stack of polish workers big enough to warrant a temporary slavery change (not necessary tho). Once a good amount of improvements were up I switched to Monarchy and never looked back. This maintenance reduction is gold for UHV2.

Also, forget about St. Basil, your research will initially collapse. Mount Athos is the strategy. I find that from 600 AD there is currently a 50/50 chance that Byzantium collapsed before building it. Once Nubia beat me to it but the second try was easy. Chop everything around Kyiv and it will be enough. Stone currently reduces by 50% the production time of both Orthodox cathedrals and all the Orthodox wonders: St. Sophia and the Kremlin won't be contested. There is stone east of Kazan or north of St. Petersburg. I chose the latter cause keshiks. The Kremlin is fundamental for UHV2 as it will make your settlers and missionaries fly across Siberia, the soldiers can trail behind. I had no trouble by that point to complete the UHV. Research will still be in the pit around 30%, but so it was in 1.17 tbf. And you don't need tech anymore and for a while. Beware of wars tho, you'll always be stretched thin. No time and no money to build an army. Once you unlock pikemans and lancers you can start move around in the steppe.

With time the economy will improve. There is a general lack of grassland and good food production so I inevitably built a lot of farms over cottages. Once you reach state party tho it's a slingshot. Insanely powerful. 2k research and almost the same in espionage. Not sure how I feel about it but it's certainly rewarding to see all the investment pay off. Look at this:

I only have one comment so far: I *never* used the UP. I tried the first run but went bankrupt. The first 100ish turns I was constantly on the edge, and swapping out elective and monarchy would have immediately bankrupted me. Sadly, there's no reason why you would ever pick despotism over elective --> monarchy --> state party. Perhaps in the endgame, to whip all the ICMBs and satellaties in time, but as it is very easy to tech up in the late game right now, I won't feel the pressure. Not sure how to address this, I'm welcoming others thoughts.

 

[BaneFire]

I'm in the middle of a Russia game, currently at around 1840 going for the third UHV. I wanted to write down a guide at some point but in the meantime I can chip in here.

I cracked the 1st UHV thanks to @Osborneman suggestion: stay away from the steppe. these keshiks are ungoldly annoying and you dont have resources to defend your borders. Conquer Kyiv, Riga (if founded) and Kazan. Settle everything in between. I ran elective initially, to cope against the unimproved land. Plus caste system, theocracy. In the meantime Leoreth buffed manoralism, so this is probably what I would now go for. In my war for Riga, I spotted a stack of polish workers big enough to warrant a temporary slavery change (not necessary tho). Once a good amount of improvements were up I switched to Monarchy and never looked back. This maintenance reduction is gold for UHV2.

View attachment 694842

Also, forget about St. Basil, your research will initially collapse. Mount Athos is the strategy. I find that from 600 AD there is currently a 50/50 chance that Byzantium collapsed before building it. Once Nubia beat me to it but the second try was easy. Chop everything around Kyiv and it will be enough. Stone currently reduces by 50% the production time of both Orthodox cathedrals and all the Orthodox wonders: St. Sophia and the Kremlin won't be contested. There is stone east of Kazan or north of St. Petersburg. I chose the latter cause keshiks. The Kremlin is fundamental for UHV2 as it will make your settlers and missionaries fly across Siberia, the soldiers can trail behind. I had no trouble by that point to complete the UHV. Research will still be in the pit around 30%, but so it was in 1.17 tbf. And you don't need tech anymore and for a while. Beware of wars tho, you'll always be stretched thin. No time and no money to build an army. Once you unlock pikemans and lancers you can start move around in the steppe.

With time the economy will improve. There is a general lack of grassland and good food production so I inevitably built a lot of farms over cottages. Once you reach state party tho it's a slingshot. Insanely powerful. 2k research and almost the same in espionage. Not sure how I feel about it but it's certainly rewarding to see all the investment pay off. Look at this:

View attachment 694845

I only have one comment so far: I *never* used the UP. I tried the first run but went bankrupt. The first 100ish turns I was constantly on the edge, and swapping out elective and monarchy would have immediately bankrupted me. Sadly, there's no reason why you would ever pick despotism over elective --> monarchy --> state party. Perhaps in the endgame, to whip all the ICMBs and satellaties in time, but as it is very easy to tech up in the late game right now, I won't feel the pressure. Not sure how to address this, I'm welcoming others thoughts.

What wide-ass screen resolution do you have?

 

[AOS9001]

I only have one comment so far: I *never* used the UP. I tried the first run but went bankrupt. The first 100ish turns I was constantly on the edge, and swapping out elective and monarchy would have immediately bankrupted me. Sadly, there's no reason why you would ever pick despotism over elective --> monarchy --> state party.

Considering Russia's new UB and UP are built around despotism whipping, I think this is a big problem.

 

[TsimTsigal]

Considering Russia's new UB and UP are built around despotism whipping, I think this is a big problem.

I hate to be a "told ya all!" guy, but in this exact moment i want to be a "told ya all!" guy.

Building a civ that is supposed to last hundreds of turns around a single mechanic (that isn't even innate, you have to pay opportunity cost to use it) is just a bad design. With all due respect to Leoreth.

 

[Leoreth]

I don't understand why everyone assumes that a civilization is "built around" its unique power and that it must be universally applicable and beneficial throughout its entire existence and in everything that it does.

 

[Osborneman]

I just want to echo pretty much everything Maggy_Domain said. I actually did go full cottage/windmill economy, but only once UHV1 was completed:

Also, don't forget that the UP/UB works with drafting too! I used it when attacked by Japan+Korea to quickly build an army in the East.

 

[TsimTsigal]

I don't understand why everyone assumes that a civilization is "built around" its unique power and that it must be universally applicable and beneficial throughout its entire existence and in everything that it does.

Because if you play with anything but Despotism as Russia, you play without your UP and half of your UB (at least until Nationalism). I'm not against more situational or focused UPs, but not for one of the most verastile and sandboxy civilizations. And as others said (and i believe i said before 1.18 test builds were released), Russia doesn't really want Despotism, nor is it historical.

To sum it up, i don't think that the civ should be defined by its UP, but an UP should be at least benefitial and enabling, rather than having associated costs that might outweigth benefits and restricting.

Also, don't forget that the UP/UB works with drafting too! I used it when attacked by Japan+Korea to quickly build an army in the East.

It's absolutely true, but ironically Russia doesn't really need legions of conscripts. Can't deny it's very convinient, mostly because Nationalism is overall a great civic, but unless you want to raise entire armies in a few cities, Russian UP makes little to improve it (probably Far Eastern cities would tank happiness anyway).

 

[Leoreth]

If you want to use the UP, you can run Despotism (or Nationhood). If you want to use a different civic, you can use that civic instead.

This is a strategy game. It is Your Choice.

 

[AOS9001]

I don't understand why everyone assumes that a civilization is "built around" its unique power and that it must be universally applicable and beneficial throughout its entire existence and in everything that it does.

Maybe "built around" was strong wording on my part. I think if the building and power point you in a direction that is detrimental, there's a disconnect between the civ's toolkit and the civ's strategic direction. I guess there's still nationalism, but in my experience, by the time Russia gets nationalism the most pressing need for drafted units has already passed (no more Tatar keshik stacks popping up next to your city with one low-health crossbowman).

I just like UPs (and UBs) that are useful for the civ (and fun) no matter which way you play it. Java my beloved...

 

[Osborneman]

FWIW I didn't use despotism but Katorgas were still my first build in almost every city. Between that, Theocracy, and St. Basils you get a ton of production from buildings. Personally I think Russia is in a really good place right now, a very challenging and fun early game, but a ton of land and crazy potential in the late game. I don't mind having more of an optional UP, because Russia is already so strong it doesn't really need another bonus.

If anything, my issues with the game state right now are more with overall game balance. Many AI civs just seem weak or unstable right now. Some of my biggest tech rivals (Mughals, Germany) are collapsing for no obvious reason, and the colonial powers are failing to colonize or collapsing when they do. Korea respawned then deleted their entire army and asked for vassalization from Japan. USA didn't make it west of Dallas/St. Louis/Detroit until 1890. In general, I'm not seeing AI civs expand fast enough.

 

[TsimTsigal]

If you want to use the UP, you can run Despotism (or Nationhood). If you want to use a different civic, you can use that civic instead.

This is a strategy game. It is Your Choice.

Most other UPs don't force the player to lose something to use it. Regardless how you play as China, 25% extra food on growth is here. Same with free Italian specialist, Malian better trade an so on.

Strategy games are games of choice, but i doubt that this includes a choice between running an ahistorical and suboptimal option and having no UP - after all, they are Unique Powers, not Unique Choices.

 

[CivEnthusiast]

I'm in the middle of a Russia game, currently at around 1840 going for the third UHV. I wanted to write down a guide at some point but in the meantime I can chip in here.

I cracked the 1st UHV thanks to @Osborneman suggestion: stay away from the steppe. these keshiks are ungoldly annoying and you dont have resources to defend your borders. Conquer Kyiv, Riga (if founded) and Kazan. Settle everything in between. I ran elective initially, to cope against the unimproved land. Plus caste system, theocracy. In the meantime Leoreth buffed manoralism, so this is probably what I would now go for. In my war for Riga, I spotted a stack of polish workers big enough to warrant a temporary slavery change (not necessary tho). Once a good amount of improvements were up I switched to Monarchy and never looked back. This maintenance reduction is gold for UHV2.

View attachment 694842

Also, forget about St. Basil, your research will initially collapse. Mount Athos is the strategy. I find that from 600 AD there is currently a 50/50 chance that Byzantium collapsed before building it. Once Nubia beat me to it but the second try was easy. Chop everything around Kyiv and it will be enough. Stone currently reduces by 50% the production time of both Orthodox cathedrals and all the Orthodox wonders: St. Sophia and the Kremlin won't be contested. There is stone east of Kazan or north of St. Petersburg. I chose the latter cause keshiks. The Kremlin is fundamental for UHV2 as it will make your settlers and missionaries fly across Siberia, the soldiers can trail behind. I had no trouble by that point to complete the UHV. Research will still be in the pit around 30%, but so it was in 1.17 tbf. And you don't need tech anymore and for a while. Beware of wars tho, you'll always be stretched thin. No time and no money to build an army. Once you unlock pikemans and lancers you can start move around in the steppe.

With time the economy will improve. There is a general lack of grassland and good food production so I inevitably built a lot of farms over cottages. Once you reach state party tho it's a slingshot. Insanely powerful. 2k research and almost the same in espionage. Not sure how I feel about it but it's certainly rewarding to see all the investment pay off. Look at this:

View attachment 694845

I only have one comment so far: I *never* used the UP. I tried the first run but went bankrupt. The first 100ish turns I was constantly on the edge, and swapping out elective and monarchy would have immediately bankrupted me. Sadly, there's no reason why you would ever pick despotism over elective --> monarchy --> state party. Perhaps in the endgame, to whip all the ICMBs and satellaties in time, but as it is very easy to tech up in the late game right now, I won't feel the pressure. Not sure how to address this, I'm welcoming others thoughts.

That would indeed be quite useful, thank you. Although should say since I ran all the way from 3000 BC I already had Mount Athos built when playing the Byzantium part. And then also ran with town economy like I used to with Russia in 1.17 since they give a plenty of money to battle maintenance costs once grown enough. But I can also see all the benefits of the farm strategy, I just also simply like more seeing the map covered in towns on part. Also speaking of the Tatar keshiks being a menace in the steppes, often they just march into my land themselves and start pillaging all the hardly achieved tile improvements, something nobody really can control sadly.

 

[banzay13]

How about, instead giving Spain settler, spawn independent Santiago one turn before Spain born? #helpSpain

 

[Leoreth]

point you in a direction that is detrimental

running an ahistorical and suboptimal option

Sorry, but those are your choices and opinions, they are not objective fact. And in addition, they are opinions based on a currently rough, unfinished, and unbalanced state. Especially when it comes to Russia we already went over this in a long post that I expected to be worth the time I spent on it more than it seems to have been.

I don't know how much I have to preface things with development version and acknowledge that the balance is off right now until it sinks in. That's what I was getting at with people obsessing about UPs as the primary driver of a civ's performance and play experience. It should always be judged in the context of the whole civilization. The UP is not the only lever to impact how a civ plays and how it's doing - in fact it's not even the primary one. Conversely it makes no sense to judge a UP when everything else is still out of balance.

 

[TsimTsigal]

I don't know how much I have to preface things with development version and acknowledge that the balance is off right now until it sinks in. <...> Conversely it makes no sense to judge a UP when everything else is still out of balance.

The UP is a part of balance, isn't it? It requires tuning in same way everything else does - isn't the point of development version to find out and fix all problematic entities? Plus my point isn't even about how balanced the civ is (you can theoretically have a perfectly balanced civ with no UP whatsoever, and it might be even fun - like current Nubia (assuming UHV time period), and reports on Russia are very mixed so far), but how one-dimensional and restrictive UP feels.

On a second thought, it must be a brilliant postmodernist move on your side to make player experience the Power of Hardships - either you run Despotism (and you will love it) or no cookies for you. And no other food either - go to Katorga.

 

[Tao paï paï]

Playing with Polynesia, I find their UHV way too easy now. You have much more turns to achieve it, but the number of islands to colonize before reaching the targeted ones is still the same as on 1.17. On 1.17 I was struggling to puzzle the UHV on time, on 1.18 I achieved the 3 UHV something like 40-50 turns before the deadline each time.

Maybe we can advance the deadlines, or make some changes to their culture and science modifiers ?

 

[Leoreth]

The UP is a part of balance, isn't it?

Yes. That is my reason for why it is pointless to harp on about right now.

 

[AOS9001]

I will hold my peace on this subject then, and as the kids say these days, let Leoreth cook. Back to playtesting for bugs and errors for me.