[LP] Leader Pass Pack 4: Rulers of the Sahara Revealed (Coming Feb. 16th)

[Zaarin]

I mean if one was to become a staple, I think the Iroquois makes the most sense.

As I said.

Given the controversies that pop up and the extra work that Firaxis has to do every time a non-Iroquois indigenous civ is included, I'll be somewhat surprised if we get more than one in each game.

The "controversy" was one headman making a political play. I think a lot of people here make it more significant than it was. (I wouldn't call the request by the Tewa--and maybe a similar request by the Haida--not to be included a controversy.)

 

[bbbt]

The "controversy" was one headman making a political play. I think a lot of people here make it more significant than it was. (I wouldn't call the request by the Tewa--and maybe a similar request by the Haida--not to be included a controversy.)

But you have a situation where a number of groups that Firaxis has reached out to have requested not to be included (as indicated) and a situation where they perhaps worked with part of a tribe but maybe not who was authorized to speak on behalf of the them (or VV? I don't really remember the deal with the Cree).

All of which might lead to be a very limited pool of tribal nations willing to be included and they can feel they've covered their bases with.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Given the controversies that pop up and the extra work that Firaxis has to do every time a non-Iroquois indigenous civ is included, I'll be somewhat surprised if we get more than one in each game.

I think the Sioux are in a similar situation to the Iroquois, at least in terms of representation in various media, which wouldn't mind appearing.

I assume the Comanche would be fine too considering they used a Comanche UU for the Shoshone. I'd take this rotation of having the Iroquois and Comanche/Sioux at least every game then only having one, even if it's not ideal.

 

[Zaarin]

But you have a situation where a number of groups that Firaxis has reached out to have requested not to be included (as indicated) and a situation where they perhaps worked with part of a tribe but maybe not who was authorized to speak on behalf of the them (or VV? I don't really remember the deal with the Cree).

All of which might lead to be a very limited pool of tribal nations willing to be included and they can feel they've covered their bases with.

It definitely suggests they need to touch base with elders of the nation they want to include earlier in the process, before they've started working on assets.

 

[FinalDoomsday]

I believe the best way to soften the blow of moving to a new Civ game with just a dozen or so civs is to have fresh interpretations of the legacy civs that always show up. I hope the fact that Elizabeth is squeezing in at the very end of Civ 6 means 7 is going to have someone new for England (Assuming Civ 7 follows the tradition of Civs and Leaders)

 

[Kwami]

The "controversy" was one headman making a political play. I think a lot of people here make it more significant than it was. (I wouldn't call the request by the Tewa--and maybe a similar request by the Haida--not to be included a controversy.)

You can put scare quotes around the word, but that doesn't make it less true. As you recall, the developers went above and beyond to work with the tribe and ensure that they were satisfied with their portrayal in the game, but that still wasn't enough for some of their leaders. The result generated media coverage and bad publicity in the US. Did that ultimately matter? Maybe not. But why go through all the extra effort only to still upset some tribal leaders and risk the bad press that follows?

In the previous game, we had the Shoshone only because the Pueblo said no at the last minute due to their taboo against depicting the dead. Many other tribes have similar beliefs.

There are a few established tribes that present a lower risk, such as the Iroquois. Easier to just go with them.

(And why do we only have "indigenous" peoples from North and South America? Why not the Ainu, or Australian aboriginals, or any of the various Siberian peoples? Are they not good enough? Too much work? Incompatible beliefs? Folks here seem to care a whole lot more about American civs.)

EDIT: Eh, we're getting too far off topic. I won't continue this discussion.

 

[Zaarin]

You can put scare quotes around the word, but that doesn't make it less true.

As you recall, the developers went above and beyond to work with the tribe and ensure that they were satisfied with their portrayal in the game, but that still wasn't enough for some of their leaders. The result generated media coverage and bad publicity in the US. Did that ultimately matter? Maybe not. But why go through all the extra effort only to still upset some tribal leaders and risk the bad press that follows?

And you can claim that one headman manipulatively using Civ6 to advance his political agenda is a controversy, but that also doesn't make it true.

 

[Kwami]

And you can claim that one headman manipulatively using Civ6 to advance his political agenda is a controversy, but that also doesn't make it true.

The US media isn't as savvy as you. It was a controversy that the developers and publisher almost certainly would have rather avoided.

 

[Zaarin]

The US media isn't as savvy as you. It was a controversy that the developers and publisher almost certainly would have rather avoided.

TBH I doubt most people--even most Civ players--even heard about it. We talked about it here and perhaps on Reddit, but we're more invested in the game and what surrounds the game than the average player, never mind the average non-gamer. Of course Firaxis would have preferred it not happen, but I don't think it significantly affected Firaxis or Civ6 in any way. Especially since the general Cree response, for example, the Poundmaker Singers, was positive. I agree that being asked not to be included by the Tewa and probably the Haida might make Firaxis gun-shy about being creative with their choice of Native American civs (and probably other indigenous peoples) going forward, but I really think people here put far too much stock in what one headman said that probably very few people heard about and fewer remembered.

 

[King William I]

If we're relegated to only one NA indigenous civ per game, I'd rather see the Navajo over anyone else. They're a good choice for a 'plains' civ that won't default to horses and warfare

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

If we're relegated to only one NA indigenous civ per game, I'd rather see the Navajo over anyone else. They're a good choice for a 'plains' civ that won't default to horses and warfare

Well considering they live in the desert I wouldn't necessarily call them a plains civ, but I agree with the rest of your statement. They are definitely my most wanted new tribe.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Well considering they live in the desert I wouldn't necessarily call them a plains civ, but I agree with the rest of your statement. They are definitely my most wanted new tribe.

They could even have a Maori type gimmick for wandering around a bit. They originated in Canada sometime in the pre-Columbian period and migrated to the SW US area, where they may have been one of the reasons for the abandonment of the cliff dwellings by the Ancestral Puebloans.

 

[Zaarin]

As far as Plains-adjacent nations go, I'd be more interested in the Nez Perce, personally. Lots of fertile design space in some of the Southern Plains nations like the Caddo or Pawnee, too.

They could even have a Maori type gimmick for wandering around a bit. They originated in Canada sometime in the pre-Columbian period and migrated to the SW US area, where they may have been one of the reasons for the abandonment of the cliff dwellings by the Ancestral Puebloans.

Everyone started somewhere else, and the Navajo weren't exceptionally mobile. Part of their appeal is that they actually had permanent settlements. So I don't think they're prime candidates for being Land Kupe.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

As far as Plains-adjacent nations go, I'd be more interested in the Nez Perce, personally. Lots of fertile design space in some of the Southern Plains nations like the Caddo or Pawnee, too.

Lots of fertile design space in most of the Native American groups once you get beyond the 'pop culture' view of them.
The Comanche, for an example, although one of the premier horse-cultures and mounted warfare tribes, also managed a large trade network, acting as middlemen between Spanish, French, US, and other native groups all the way from Santa Fe to the borders of (modern) Louisiana. Among other items, they were one of the primary suppliers of horses to many other plains natives.

And the Haida, the 'Vikings of the Northwest' who raided from Alaska to Puget Sound, also traded from northern California to Alaska and even introduced 'exotic' goods like abalone shell from California into the artwork of the Pacific Northwest.

The mobility of many tribes could be a basis for some 'outlier' Unique attributes around trade, diplomacy, and movement of Resources in addition to the usual 'war party' motif so common.

 

[Zaarin]

And the Haida, the 'Vikings of the Northwest' who raided from Alaska to Puget Sound, also traded from northern California to Alaska and even introduced 'exotic' goods like abalone shell from California into the artwork of the Pacific Northwest.

Part of the reason I want a PNW nation like the Haida, Tlingit, or Tsimshian is just how unexpected for many people a Native American people primed for culture victory would be.

 

[Caesar of Bread]

Part of the reason I want a PNW nation like the Haida, Tlingit, or Tsimshian is just how unexpected for many people a Native American people primed for culture victory would be.

The Haida could be a perfect example of a civ that is combined with both military and culture.

 

[Zaarin]

The Haida could be a perfect example of a civ that is combined with both military and culture.

PNW warfare was so ritualistic that I'd find portraying any PNW civ as militaristic very odd. Essentially the way "warfare" worked in the PNW was (a potentially deadly) game of intimidation, culminating in the taking of hostages and paying of ransoms. That's not to say they couldn't be violent or people didn't die, but neither killing the enemy nor taking land was part of the goal of such warfare. (You can see similar warfare rituals in the indigenous people of Papua New Guinea.) The Haida and Tlingit would be prime candidates for Trade and Culture (with the Tlingit probably benefiting from being traded to rather than trading with), while the Tlingit and Tsimshian are both prime candidates for Religion and Culture. Any of the three are prime candidates for Booming Without Improvements and Culture. (The Haida were also slavers, but I don't see them as benefiting from an Aztec-style ability, especially since they didn't keep the slaves themselves but traded them--therefore losing the synergy of the Aztec ability.)

 

[Laurana Kanan]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1624800514423619585

 

[AntSou]

Hmmm, I think the dress looks fine actually. I like the detail in the knot around her waist.

 

[Zaarin]

It still looks like leather to me, especially in the bodice. She looks like she's about to join Commodus in the Colosseum.