[LP] Leader Pass Pack 4: Rulers of the Sahara (Feb. 2023) - Patch Notes Discussion

[Eagle Pursuit]

The funny thing about Ramses is that his lips are glossy. Combined with the kohl, it makes him look like a silent era movie star.

 

[UWHabs]

For Ramses, the early game is where you see the greatest benefit from building wonders, but simultaneously has the greatest risk that you are failing to build adequate settlers.

Sundiata is very much just Mali with Great Works. It doesn't feel substantially different than Mansa Musa. That's not a bad thing. I rather enjoy playing as Mali.

NeoCleo is very powerful with a good start. 3 floodplain resources within two tiles of your capital, especially plantation resources, is a great way to snowball. However, just one or no floodplain resources in your capital, or a low number of floodplain city spots nearby will hamper her severely. She is the closest any leader in this pack comes to being OP.

Unless if you're getting like 5 floodplain resources in your cap, I wouldn't say Cleo is really OP at anything. As much bonuses as she gets, it's dwarfed by the potential bonuses you can get in a start location for like Teddy, or even the Inca, if you factor in that they can potentially get like a 7 food tile 10-15 turns into the game. She has some nice bonuses, for sure. But especially without any real production bonuses early, she's going to have a hard time. Like, if she gets lucky and can chop out an early Etemenaki, oh baby she is going to do some damage. But if you have a wonder spammer on the map who beats her to it, that hurts. The Appeal bonus is good for an Earth Goddess play, for sure, to give a good amount of passive faith without needing holy sites. But National Parks are very late for her.

 

[tedhebert]

Ah well... not surprised, but... Keita is bugged with Owls... I get my 2 writing slots in market, but do NOT get the 2 art slots in Gilded Vaults ;-(

 

[Kupe Navigator]

Ah well... not surprised, but... Keita is bugged with Owls... I get my 2 writing slots in market, but do NOT get the 2 art slots in Gilded Vaults ;-(

Isn't it because Gilded vaults replaces BANKS instead of market? Correct me if I am wrong bur Keita's ability only gives slots to market NOT banks.

 

[Weraptor]

Only markets are supposed to provide those, not banks.

 

[The_J]

Current live stream with ptolemaic Cleo.

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

Ah well... not surprised, but... Keita is bugged with Owls... I get my 2 writing slots in market, but do NOT get the 2 art slots in Gilded Vaults ;-(

Gilded Vault replace Bank, not Markets.

 

[tedhebert]

Gilded Vault replace Bank, not Markets.

Isn't it because Gilded vaults replaces BANKS instead of market? Correct me if I am wrong bur Keita's ability only gives slots to market NOT banks.

Only markets are supposed to provide those, not banks.

Sorry I was confused thought I remembered gilded vaults giving work of art slots... Then the bug is that it's giving me 2 slots in Tawdenni here ;-) Might not be related to the pass though... it's weird, that city has no wonders and nothing special !

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Sorry I was confused thought I remembered gilded vaults giving work of art slots... Then the bug is that it's giving me 2 slots in Tawdenni here ;-) Might not be related to the pass though... it's weird, that city has no wonders and nothing special !

View attachment 654616

It's possible you used the Medici Great Merchant to construct the Bank. He gives that Bank Great Works slots.

 

[tedhebert]

It's possible you used the Medici Great Merchant to construct the Bank. He gives that Bank Great Works slots.

Awesome... That's exactly it... Sorry all for the mixup !!! Checked the spent GMs and there it was... Giovani de Medici ;-)

See, sometimes the game DOES work correctly, and our minds don't

 

[Starina]

Sundiata Keita established a complete monopoly on works of literature. Difficulty level 8. It was difficult and Tokugawa almost flew into space, but the culture of the book, sand and kind words did their job.
Unfortunately, 2 great writers were missed, so only 55 out of 59 books were collected.
I rate Sundiata Keita as 7.5/10. Severe drawdowns in science could contribute to an unwanted losing war

Spoiler Big Image :

 

[blackbutterfly]

Sundiata Keita established a complete monopoly on works of literature.

I like Sundiata.
He's a more balanced Mali helping with a cultural victory.

Nowadays that is the most common non-dom victory IMO (with Monopolies mode).
However playing vs. Europe on a TSL map I won a religious victory. Mali "Africa build":


This has been my favourite DLC in the Leader Pass.
Not broken.
Not OP.

Balanced.
But still fun to play.

 

[pokiehl]

Might be old news: but did anyone see Germany's civ ability got a buff? (3 districts give +4 housing and +2 amenities). When did that happen?

Sounds like you’re using my mod Civilizations Expanded Lite.

 

[Kmart_Elvis]

I really want to like NeoCleo. The culture + food on resources should make for a great start, plus the appeal bonus goes great with Earth Goddess and Sphinxes, but it's just way too inconsistent to pull off to make me like her. I've tried with her a couple times, even cheesing all the options to make it work: Wetlands map, Legendary Start, Abundant Resources. Most of the time I don't get a single resource. The most I can get is 2. I keep restarting, in this last session, must've been 20 and 30 times. I guess 2 resources is as good as you're going to get. Anything above that is hitting the lottery.

I honestly like her design, but damn, if I have to spend a half an hour just trying to start a decent game with her, maybe having that extra +4 gold and faster alliance points is probably the better option the most time.

EDIT: Just got a 2 resource start. There's nowhere around me that I can settle that can get a single floodplain resource. Just confirms she looks good on paper, but a pain in practice.

 

[blackbutterfly]

I really want to like NeoCleo. The culture + food on resources should make for a great start, plus the appeal bonus goes great with Earth Goddess and Sphinxes, but it's just way too inconsistent to pull off to make me like her. I've tried with her a couple times, even cheesing all the options to make it work: Wetlands map, Legendary Start, Abundant Resources. Most of the time I don't get a single resource. The most I can get is 2. I keep restarting, in this last session, must've been 20 and 30 times. I guess 2 resources is as good as you're going to get. Anything above that is hitting the lottery.

I honestly like her design, but damn, if I have to spend a half an hour just trying to start a decent game with her, maybe having that extra +4 gold and faster alliance points is probably the better option the most time.

Check out @boesthius Cleo's Preserve Only Challenge

PotatoMcWhiskey is also doing a Cleo tourism game, with Preserves.

(Seriously these guys are just copying each other)

 

[Thormodr]

I really want to like NeoCleo. The culture + food on resources should make for a great start, plus the appeal bonus goes great with Earth Goddess and Sphinxes, but it's just way too inconsistent to pull off to make me like her. I've tried with her a couple times, even cheesing all the options to make it work: Wetlands map, Legendary Start, Abundant Resources. Most of the time I don't get a single resource. The most I can get is 2. I keep restarting, in this last session, must've been 20 and 30 times. I guess 2 resources is as good as you're going to get. Anything above that is hitting the lottery.

I honestly like her design, but damn, if I have to spend a half an hour just trying to start a decent game with her, maybe having that extra +4 gold and faster alliance points is probably the better option the most time.

EDIT: Just got a 2 resource start. There's nowhere around me that I can settle that can get a single floodplain resource. Just confirms she looks good on paper, but a pain in practice.

You can always have adundant resources and a wet world to generate more floodplain resources. It worked well for me.

 

[AntSou]

@Kmart_Elvis which map settings do you use? I have no issues generating floodplains on large maps. In fact, I never not get plenty of floodplains.

There's also a mod which increases movement and sight and removes penalty from terrain for the starting settler. It's pretty useful.

Edit: I forgot to mention I use Wetlands mod. That will probably make a big difference too.

 

[Aurelesk]

Because of the production malus, the Desert Folklore pantheon with the Work Ethic belief is a must for Mali. Unless you are isolated or have easily defensible terrain, you can't really go with anything else. Its not as great as like Russia with Dance of the Aurora and Work Ethic but it gets you better production than another civ would have regularly. In my Sundiata game I was fairly isolated with really protective terrain so I was able to get the settler pantheon instead of going with usual choices for Mali.

Also, make sure you are working productive tiles instead of food tiles! Mali can generate food with its ability so you skip working some early food tiles. In addition, your first cities are going want to be on the edge of the desert so they still have regular tiles to work and then your later cities can be in the desert proper.

Something I found out playing as Babylone is that modifiers add together, making the malus significant worse when other are added, or way less problematic when bonuses are added. For example:
- Negative Amenity: it gives -10%, -20%, -30% and -40% under -1, -3, -5 and -7 Amenity respectively, which makes Babylone at -60%, -70%, -80% and -90% Science. So your Science is, in fact, reduced by 20%, 40%, 60% and 80%: the malus is doubled!
- Positive Amenity: it gives +10% and +20% over 3 and 5 Amenity respectively, which males Babylone at -40% and -30% Science. So your Science is, in fact, increased by 20% and 40%: the bonus is doubled too!

I guess it works the same for Mali. -30% Production would mean that each Production modifier would be 43% more powerful. A Displeased city with -10% Yield would mean the City is at -40%, which means -10% is -14,3%. But is also means +10% is +14,3%. So you really want to have avoid maluses by keeping your Cities happy, and really want to have those positive modifier like Kisiwani, Colonial Taxes, ASRS.... I will test if the +50% / +100% card works the same, and we get +71% and +143% Production instead.

What I don't like about Mali is that the Production malus is applied since turn 0, but you need to have Suguba to enjoy the 20% discount. I would love to have that 20% discount since turn 0 too which would mitigate the early game. I underestimated how potent -1 Production / +4 Gold Mines are. I also underestimated how potent Religious Community is: +8 Gold per trade Route, which can be doubled with Harbor, Railroad, Tunnel... is not as bad as it seems. While it is not as big as a commitment: only your Trading cities needs a full Holy Site, while Choral Music / Feed the World need you to have them in all cities, and Work Ethic needs at least Holy Sites.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Hmm, I always get floodplains with her using standard everything maps. My biggest issue is I don't want to build on the floodplains . . .

I really want to like NeoCleo. The culture + food on resources should make for a great start, plus the appeal bonus goes great with Earth Goddess and Sphinxes, but it's just way too inconsistent to pull off to make me like her. I've tried with her a couple times, even cheesing all the options to make it work: Wetlands map, Legendary Start, Abundant Resources. Most of the time I don't get a single resource. The most I can get is 2. I keep restarting, in this last session, must've been 20 and 30 times. I guess 2 resources is as good as you're going to get. Anything above that is hitting the lottery.

I honestly like her design, but damn, if I have to spend a half an hour just trying to start a decent game with her, maybe having that extra +4 gold and faster alliance points is probably the better option the most time.

EDIT: Just got a 2 resource start. There's nowhere around me that I can settle that can get a single floodplain resource. Just confirms she looks good on paper, but a pain in practice