Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by Frostyboy, Aug 9, 2007.
Isn't that what they said about Charismatic + Aggressive? Oh, my lovely Boudica.
Ind/Phi is pretty much a dream combo for Specialist Economies.
I think Israel would be the perfect Civ to add and have 3 leaders to fill out the traits.
King David - Creative + Charismatic
Writing the Psalms shows his creativity, and his Charisma was noted as well.
King Saul - Protective + Organized
Thwarted invasions by the Phillistines and others on numerous occasions (Protective) and was the first king (thereby first leader of an organized civ) of Israel (Organized)
King Solomon - Industrious + Philosophical
As noted before, Built the temple (Industrious) and was known throughout the world as being very wise (Philosophical).
No way - Israel doesn't warrant three leaders, not when a lot of other important civs are still haven't gotten their second leader.
Spain could get one of the leaders.
Philippe II or Charles Quint.
I'm not familiar enough with the personality of these two to tell which one of the three traits they should have.
Or Japan. I easily imagine a protective and organized leader for Japan.
As is Agg/Char for warmongers. Why is Ind/phi more problematic than Agg/Char? I really don't get it.
+ With a single option it is now possible to have Praetorians who benefit from Agg/Char.
How can it get much worse than this in terms of balance, I don't know...
I admit I'd like to try Ind/Phi. I'm curious as to what I could come up with (just as I was curious to try Boudica).
Protective/Organized would be way too close to Tokugawa. (IIRC, he went from Agg/Org to Agg/Pro, right?)
Nebuchadrezzar II of Babylon (Industrious,Philosophical)
Reason: He rebuilt Babylon from top to bottom. He even constructed one of the seven wonders of the world, the Hanging Gardens of Babylon. This justifys the Industrious trait. His efforts strengthened Babylon's cultural identity and inspired later generations, which justifys the Philosophical trait in my opinion. Not only this, but he brought in many different cultures and ideas into Babylon through his conquests.
Heraclius of the Byzantine Empire (Protective, Organized)
Reason: Heraclius was the Byzantine emperor when Jerusalem fell to the Persian Empire in the early 600's AD. At this time the Byzantine Empire was facing internal strife and was falling into dissary. Heraclius reorganized the Roman forces and lead them against the Persians to reclaim Byzantine lands. This warrents Heraclius the trait of Protective, for defending the Byzantine Empire from the Persians, and the trait of Organized, for reorganizing the military to fight the Persians.
Abu Bakr of Arabia (Creative, Charismatic)
Reason: Abu Bakr was the fourth person to accept Islam and follow the prophet Muhammed. He was a very religious man and when Muhammed died, he prevented the collapse of Muhammed's kingdom and became the first ruler of the Arabian Caliph after Muhammed. He should get the Charismatic trait for that. He should also get the Creative trait for his efforts to soldify Islam in the Arabian penisula and for his strong religious beliefs.
Exactly. Building Pyramids at a guaranteed discount, enabling Representation and popping scientists & engineers for the rest of the game. Not to mention cheap forges and universities. You would beat everybody to every technology AND be able to build the assosciated wonders without much of a hiccup to your gameplan. Especially once you secure Stone and/or Marble.
Give me no UU or UB and I doubt I would have much trouble winning games. In fact, allow me to build only archers until Musketmen, since I'm confident I will be getting to that technology around the same time the AI gets access to Macemen. Not that it wouldn't be fun!
Would get my vote, too. Also helps with my Archers-only-until-muskets gambit.
Actually, I just used one of those combos for the leader I made for my Ukrainian civilization.
I added Viktor Yushchenko as the leader for the Ukrainians with Charismatic/Creative. I chose that because he led the Orange Revolution (charismatic) and, well, he did survive an attempt on his life and managed to rally a country even with Russian/anti-Russian sentiment in full swing (creative). I made his favorite civic universal sufferage due to the events around the Orange Revolution, and his favorite religion as Christianity.
I tried the Ind-Phil combo by modifying Roosevelt. America also has a very late UU and UB, and starts with a relatively weak tech combo (Fishing/Agriculture, which is only slightly better than Greece's (and the Canada mod's) Fishing/Hunting.
My own experience suggested it was very overpowered. I was running circles around the AI in no time flat, frankly. I was popping out lots of Great Engineers, which allowed me to rush more wonders, which in turn allowed me to pop more Great People. I had won the game long before either the UU or UB became available.
That doesn't mean it's the sort of combination that shouldn't be in the game. If it was, I would treat it like I treat Rome; whenever I move up a level or install an expansion pack, the first game I play is as Julius Caesar, because I know how to win with him and can put up a good fight as I struggle with the new AI advantages and/or game features. I also play as Rome when I feel like a romp rather than a struggle, and Ind/Phil would be the same.
I have to agree with people--No new Civs while some existing ones only have one. As much as I'd like to see both Israel and Poland, I think Japan and Spain have been thoroughly shafted enough.
Protective/Organized: Someone from Meiji Japan. I don't know enough of the history to say someone specific. Yes, it's close to what Tokugawa used to be, but... Eh. It fits the era.
Charismatic/Creative: Charles V of Spain.
Philosophical/Industrious: Here's the tricky one... Give this to Lincoln, freeing up Phi/Cha. Now, you can either assign Phi/Cha to either a Mali Mansa, or to an Aztec emperor, or you can give it to Pericles of Greece, freeing up Phi/Cre and giving it to a Mansa/Emperor. Ooooor, alternatively, that could go to a new civilization all together. But that shows a bit of cultural bias, saying that the only Mansa worth mentioning was Musa (Sakoura was pretty keen, from what little I'm skimming, but definitely not Phi/Cha, Phi/Ind, or Phi/Cre) or that Monteczuma was the only interesting Aztec.
IF, on the other hand, someone just wants to make new civs entirely...
Phi/Ind: Chuck Norris.
UB: Dojo (Barracks) Gives +3 Experience to new units, Melee and Gunpowder units start with Combat and Drill I.
UU: Texas Ranger (Spy) Can use a new Espionage action to kill units outright.
Because, let's face it, if you're going to make a broken combo, why not go whole hog and break the whole damn thing? =P
I dislike how people get carried away with the leader suggestions. Israel is never going to be in a Civ game.
^^How many people thought Khmer, Mali, or Ethiopia would end up in Civ IV? Until something is done it seems impossible, but all it takes is for someone to decide to do something about it.
If Firaxis were to make one more expansion pack, which would be like printing their own money, Israel would be a great choice. I think it would have to have at least six civs, and only the Hittites have appeared in earlier games and are not currently in. So there would be a lot of new civs, and Israel certainly fits the bill.
It'd be better to try and fit the 3 non-existant trait combos into existing civs.
I'm thinking Ind/Phil could be with Japan, since Samurai and Shale Plant never seemed that amazing. I certainly don't know any leaders of Japan that can fit, but I think we can probably squeeze it in.
Cha/Cre with Arabia sounds good, as Islam is indeed both popular and used to be a huge cultural powerhouse as well as advanced for their time.
Org/Pro for Spain sounds good as well, since Spain probably needs another leader, and Pro work have synergy with citadels. Org could really help with Spain's economy, even though they usually find a religion, I find myself always falling behind in tech due to upkeep for some odd reason. Cheap lighthouses would be a minor synergy as well.
Ind/Phil would be decent for Meiji-era leader, though hardly the best fit.
Industrious/Philosophical - Tenoch of Aztec
Charismatic/Creative - Tamerlane of Persia
Organized/Protective - Philip II of Spain
Seriously, I wanted to see the Duke of Wellington in the game.
Granted, the "Iron Duke" was later PM, but not a stellar one as I understand it. He's a better fit in the game as a Great General, don't you think?
Ind + Phi could be toned down "behind the scenes" so-to-say:
If there are modifiers on the random generation of the location of Stone and Marble vesus your starting location - and I do not know if there already are factors built in to the game to account for traits and UUs and UBs - then maybe a larger modifier could be coded in for this trait. That way anytime the Ind + Phi combo was played Stone and Marble and Gold could be coded to be almost always far, far away - based on difficulty level of course.
Secondly, the random game could preferentially choose some strong Industrial AI leaders so that getting The Pyramids would be very competitive and next to impossible at higher difficulty levels.
Those are two ways Ind + Phi could be toned down without doing anything obviously over-compensating/correcting. That way the Ind + Phi led civ would be challenged to get things a going - it will still be a strong trait, but at least it will be more likely delayed before it "takes off"! One would hope!
Back to OP...
My suggestions on the 3 traits:
Charismatic/Creative - a leader for Spain, Isabella's husband Ferdinand? They were in fact a team, so it may work very well conceptually speaking. Play one or the other and, in a team game, both could be in play!
Organized/Protective - a leader for Japan: Emperor Meiji fits really well! Meiji played a profound role in Japan's rapid change from a feudal society to a modern industrial one. I think many civver's would like such a leader in the game.
Industrious/Philosophical - a leader for... oh this is tough... hmm... the Celts have two aleady... the Native Americans. Because they are such a large diverse group of peoples... How about young Chief Pacaha who led one of the more powerful Mississippian tribes of the 1540's (as per Spanish accounts)? The Mississippian tribes were on their way to really building cities (they built large mounds - some almost pyramid-like) but died out before they had a chance to flourish. Other than Pacaha there is Geronimo and Hiawatha... But Hiawatha was spiritual and Geronimo was aggressive, neither particularly industrious I don't know who else but Pacaha for a 2nd NA leader given this last trait combo.
Of course juggling trait combos around opens possibilities! (I'll let others do that )
Wait... you telling me it's IND/PHI and it gets a FORGE UB that gives it a SPECIALIST? ROFL I never heard of a more overpowered combo OMG. Do you want to play the game or do you want I win button?
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