Leader suggestions for the 3 "missing" trait combos

[axident]

Isn't that what they said about Charismatic + Aggressive? Oh, my lovely Boudica.

Your lovely Boudica would have NOTHING on an Ind/Phil leader on anything up to and including Monarch. Past that and Boudica shines.

 

[axident]

Exactly. Building Pyramids at a guaranteed discount, enabling Representation and popping scientists & engineers for the rest of the game. Not to mention cheap forges and universities. You would beat everybody to every technology AND be able to build the assosciated wonders without much of a hiccup to your gameplan. Especially once you secure Stone and/or Marble.

Give me no UU or UB and I doubt I would have much trouble winning games. In fact, allow me to build only archers until Musketmen, since I'm confident I will be getting to that technology around the same time the AI gets access to Macemen. Not that it wouldn't be fun!

ADD:



Would get my vote, too. Also helps with my Archers-only-until-muskets gambit.

In my current Louis game I just got cavs and am 1 tech away from Infantry. Nobody else even has cuirassiers yet, and most are using longbows and macemen. I managed to miss Hagia Sophia by 3 turns since I had a HUGE backlog of wonders and I kept putting off HS. But I got every. single. world. wonder. Except for HS. 3 extended golden ages so far. I played kinda sloppy for a while, too. Monarch/Std/Normal. If I had Ind/Phil where would I be by now... tanks vs. longbows and macemen? Those +2 GP really add up from wonders after a while; with a golden age, philosophical, national epic, and Parthenon what is that, +9 GP per wonder? Tack on the free specialists from Temple of Artemis, Great Library, Mercantalism, and Statue of Liberty, and you begin to see the problem. Paid-for specialists from forge and Angkor Wat-powered priests just add to the huge pile of GP points.

 

[alcaras]

Cre/Cha -- I'd love to see Queen Jadwiga of Poland here, for more reasons than one.

Quoting Wikipedia:

Hedwig (Saint Jadwiga (February 18, 1374 – July 17, 1399) was a Polish monarch who reigned from 1384 to 1399, and is venerated by the Roman Catholic Church as Saint Hedwig (Jadwiga) the Queen. She is the Patron Saint of queens, and of United Europe.

She is known in German as Hedwig, in Lithuanian as Jadvyga, in Hungarian as Hedvig, and in Latin as Hedvigis.

Jadwiga was reputedly a blonde, blue-eyed, tall and elegant beauty.

Jadwiga was Poland's most influential female leader of note and Poland is a civilization that could be a great addition in another expansion pack.

Jan Sobieski could be added as a Great General. Hussars could be added as Poland's UU, with a 'Holy Shrine' UB replacing monasteries. Poland could start with Mining and Agriculture.

Org/Pro -- Maria Theresa as Holy Roman Empress.

Ind/Phi -- Olga of Kiev, as leader of the new Ukrainian Civilization. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olga_of_Kiev

 

[Reprisal]

Regarding Tamerlane, if by Persia you mean Mongolia, then yes.

Soloman as the Ind/Phil leader sounds quite appealing -- though the traits are still pretty powerful if used correctly.

 

[SkyknightXi]

I'd trumpet Sejong of Korea if I could be confident that he'd classify as Charismatic (technological innovations, overseeing the invocation of Hangul...definitely Creative). Two problems, though. First, that seems to be mostly military charisma we're talking about, and while he was popular with commoners and did wage campaigns that fixed Korea's northern borders, I don't think there was a causal link. Second, while the lower classes liked him, that wasn't necessarily the case with the upper classes (they did NOT like the existence of hangul; they thought he was denigrating China's accomplishments). So much for charisma THERE.

Haroun al-Rashid also appeals to me, on top of that.

 

[King of Town]

If we are going to put ind/phi on a civ give it to the romans. I liked the chuck norris idea that if you are going to break it, break it. Ultra strong UB and UU deserves an ultra strong trait combo.

Seriously though I would love to see char/Cre. They are my favorite two traits. You don't have to waste time researching religion, you could just go dtraight through the military ones and take the world over in short order.

 

[Swein Forkbeard]

Philosophical/Industrious: Paul von Hindenburg! of Germany

Creative/Charismatic: Paisii of Bulgaria (or, alternately, Cleopatra VII of Egypt)

Organized/Protective: Meiji of Japan (or Itzcoatl of Aztec, or Harun-al Rashid of Arabia, or Nebuchadnezzar II of Babylon, or Simeon of Bulgaria)

I don't get why Phi/Ind would be such an overpowered combo; on the poll thread about "the best trait", Financial won soooooooo unevenly, with Charismatic right behind.

 

[L4zXX0r]

There are as most know, three combinations of leader traits that are not operative; those are:

Creative + Charismatic
Protective + Organized, and
Industrious + Philosophical

The third one is obmitted for obvious reasons (too much synergy between GP growth and wonders). Still this could be implemented given a new civ with a special unit/building that are under standard to compensate for this.

The first one has a slightly disadvantage as you get +1 for Monuments with Charismatic, but do not build them as you get +2 culture from being Creative.

To make a mod for these three leaders, which ones should be the candidates?

Regarding graphics, I guess there are plenty of already existing ones available.
If you could suggest the suitable graphic mod for your choice as well, that would been great

So Please - vote for which civs and leaders should take on the role for these three missing traits!

I havn't read any of the thread, except this first post, and I'll respond to this alone, then any thing else that catches my eye.

Creative/Charasmatic - Haile Selassie I of Ethiopia. To Rastafarians, he is God Incarnate. He Was incredibly popular, to not only the Ethiopians, but to others around the world.

For Protective/Organized, I would pick Geronimo, for the Native Americans. He was one of the last of the Independent Native American nations to resist the United States, not only that, but he was organized enough to evade the American and Mexican armies for quite a long time. I think he'd be great, especially with the Totem Poles.

For Philosophical/Industrious, I think Emperor Meiji of Japan is an excellent choice. He had the foresight to take Japan into the modern era. This included the monumental task of modernizing their military. The Meiji Reforms are an important point in Japan's history. Not only that, but he abolished the Shogunate, and took power for himself. Something that the Japanese Emperors had rarely done.

Also, as far as Phi/Ind goes, I don't think it's that strong. Paired up with Japan for example, it wouldn't be overpowered in the least.

Can't wait to see what others wrote here.

 

[L4zXX0r]

Ind + Phil = overpowered. Ask any player who builds mass wonders why it'd be overpowered. I believe early betas of Civ IV had that combo but it was taken out for obvious reasons.

It's so not overpowered. The only thing that maybe even might make it too powerful, is the engineering effect. Where you get an early Pyramids, and early Hanging Gardens. Since the Great Wall is no longer an engineering related GW, I think the kick is less than it used to be. I played a LOT of games with a modded Rome to take advantage of the rediculous bonus of the forum, just to test it, and to be honest, even once you have Ind/Phi+Pyramids+Hanging Gardens+Pacifism+Parthenon+National Epic+Forum (all of which take time to set up) Even then, you can still get your butt whooped from people who don't just build up wonders for the combo, but build units to take out your cities.

 

[L4zXX0r]

Israelites UU should be Desmond Decker

LOL. SKA!

 

[L4zXX0r]

Interesting idea, GoodSarmatian, regarding Lincoln as Phi/Ind ; though of course the idea of a non-charismatic Lincoln won't fly very well with many.

If Philosophical/Charismatic were to become available, I would definitely suggest looking at one of the true leaders of the Meiji restoration, most likely Okubo (who has been called the Japanese Bismarck).

I prefer Mutsuhito.

 

[L4zXX0r]

I really don't see what all the fuss is about with ind/phil. Sure there's a bit of synergy, but if the meager GPP you get from wonders is going to be contributing significantly to your great people count (great library aside, of course), you're not even close to making the most out of phil anyway. Pyramid gamble aside (and it really is a gamble), it doesn't seem all that great. Cre/phi and especially spi/phi are MUCH more synergistic combos, in my mind. A couple of extra wonders polluting up the GP pool, or free trips back and forth between caste system and slavery, and to and from pacifism, representation and mercantilism? I would pick the latter every time.

So yeah, I really don't see it as a problem.

It's not a problem. Phi/Ind requires a lot of buildings and a civic to get the most abuse out of it. Though, if you do build the pyramids, you will have that inital Great Engineer to get an easy Hanging Gardens, and maybe an easy Parthenon. But after that, I dunno. Though I do like playing that combo...

 

[intj_rational]

Protective/Organized: Mao Ze Dong. For a new leader, Meiji of Japan.

Creative/Charismatic: Probably some Greek leader... I seriously have no suggestions for this.

Philosophical/Industrious: Lincoln.

 

[OttoManD]

Cre/Char: It was said previously that there should be another Native American leader. I strongly suggest people at least give Louis Riel a look for this spot. He's regarded as the founder of my home province, Manitoba. If you want charismatic, he was elected to the Canadian parliament 3 times while he was wanted for a murder trial and hiding in America.

Pro/Org: I think Manuel Palaeologus of the Byzantines could be a good fit. He withstood an Ottoman siege of Constantinople from 1394 to 1402. Also, he organized the construction of a six-mile wall across the isthmus of Corinth. He's more well known now due to the Pope's unfortunate citation of his views on Islam. I would be happy with a Meiji-era Japanese leader as well, but this is my vote.

Phi/Ind: This is a tough one, I'm not sure whether it should go in the game or not.

Great suggestions so far though!

 

[Kallikrates]

Protective/Organized: Mao Ze Dong. For a new leader, Meiji of Japan.

I believe many Chinese/Korean/Japanese historical figures would fit this, because they were all very organized and for many centuries had an isolationist policy.

Creative/Charismatic: Probably some Greek leader... I seriously have no suggestions for this.

Although italian city states do not fit well into CIV one of the Gonzaga or Medici dukes would be appropriate. Great patrons of the arts were often not at the head of large empires.
Or emperor Frederick II of the Holy Roman Empire, althou Creative/Phil might fit him better.

Philosophical/Industrious: Lincoln.

As has probably been pointed out, Pericles would also fit this. Or some Roman like Marcus Aurelius.
(I don't see Hindenburg (suggested above) as PHIL at all, besides he was not a great leader)

 

[GA econ FTW]

On Phil/Ind being broken (or not): Might be 'broken' if the humans use it, but then again, those who are much better at this game than I have demonstrated that any trait combo can be either leveraged or ignored to bring victory. In the hands of an AI? well, if the AI is coded on some historical reality, odds are it won't be unitspamming well enough to PROTECT those wonders and shrines...and like Louis XIV, most warmonger gamers will be happy to let their Phil/Ind neighbor build them a magnificent city to conquer. So, I believe all the permutations should eventually be allowed. I realize what I'm about to say next would be anti-positive-marketing, but if a civilization or a leader was to be entered into the game, they should have both traits be exactly what history is a best fit for them, even if the leader had NO really exceptional traits, or just one. So if say both Lincoln and Catherine the Great were really Creative and Charismatic, they should have gone for it...(even though I wouldn't claim Lincoln was CRE/CHAR)

CRE/CHA: I think Catherine the Great should have been this, they've switcher her around already once, but I have no better fits.

PRO/ORG: No better agreement than with all of you folks who think Japan should have another leader.

Don't get me wrong, I think Tokes is programmed with one of the more interesting personalities in Civ IV, but that has little to do with his traits, they just make him very uninterested in open borders, tech whoring, and most likely give him a fairly large unitbuild. Isolate him, and he'll be backwards as all getout. Put him on a landlocked japan as an AI on an earthmap, and he'll be very backwards in score. Even Hacking Kublai Kahn as the leader of the Japanese on a similar map makes a difference. So it would be nice to see the Japanese resurgence to civilized relevancy that happened AFTER Tokugawa unified Japan, and Indeed, Meiji would be a good fit (I'd actually claim the AGG/PRO trait would be more applicable to Tojo, I think the real Tokugawa had a BIT of an idea of "reach tech parity or perish". Well, anyway, it would be nice to see some other Japanese leader have perhaps a slightly different programmed AI personality.

PHI/IND: Honestly, no clue what leader I would give that to, most of the suggestions are fine.

On comments of "why are some civs left out and there are now 4 african civs:....I liked that, but I think again from an earth-map IRL perspective. Keeps Egypt "honest" ?

On Israel Never being a civ: When I first read that comment I was upset, but it makes some IRL sense....and for the same marketing reasons you most likely won't see certain "leaders" ever appear in official civ releases, I can guess you wouldn't see Israel as a civ.

Spoiler :

Surprised the heck out of me when I saw Joseph Stalin and Chairman Mao on the lists...Stalin More than Mao....but then again, I think when it comes to most people both civilian and military horridly slaughtered of all those who have made the cut, I think Genghis Kahn and Qin Zhi Huang have those two beaten. I figured when I also saw Chucky De Gaulle make the list too, that they simply wanted to finish out leaderheads for "the Big Three (Roosie/Churchill/Stalin) for their world war II mod and threw in Chuckie for good measure ?

Which is too bad, because I do think that a OCC RL challenge out of jerusalem on the earth map would be intriguing.

 

[plasmacannon]

Wow!
That's some necro.
4 months short of 5 years!

Someone started a new thread on the same topic.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=463934

My suggestions can be found there.