Leaders: Part 2

[Tomice]

I don't understand your question. Are you saying basegame harbors connect cities for trade immediately in G&K, but lighthouses require the trade tech to do that in GEM? The basegame and modded versions use the same AllowsWaterRoutes building effect, so they should work the same way.

I guess, Tomice forgot that even in the base game, the Wheel was needed for a traderoute, since that was a tech we normally got quite fast while Trade is a bit more "2nd priority" in GEM.

I guess that's it, thanks Mitsho! I only played one or two vanilla games while GEM was incomplete.

We probably have to try out the trade routes in combination with the Tyrian Dye feature. Most likely Carthage will still have more than enough early gold.

Still, we should keep in mind that free harbors in vanilla were much stronger than free lighthouses in GEM. Not only did the bonus apply earlier, but harbors were also more expensive, offered additional yields (production) and came later in the tech tree IIRC.




Regarding Austria:
I guess both culture and happiness would fit for the Coffee House thematically, but those are rather boring bonuses. Gold would be quite useful to use their UA more easily, but that's even more boring.

What if every Coffee House increased the CS relation resting point like the policy from the Patronage tree does? Maybe by 3 or 4 points?Then again, it would help wide empires much more than tall ones.


If it's not too complicated, I'd propose this effect for Coffee house:
"The CS relation resting point is increased by an amount equal to half the population number of the city where the coffee house is built."

Or another suggestion:
"The coffee house offers 1 culture for every CS ally and 2 culture for every peacefully annexed CS"

 

[mitsho]

Carthage does get the civilian embark as compensation though as well.

As Austria annexes CS, a benefit for CS seems counterintuitive, no? Maybe one to keep them (long enough) on Alliance Level to buy them, but then for that the Coffee House comes late. Maybe the Coffee House can grant 1 influence per turn to the nearest City State?

But then the whole Austrian ability is quite gimmicky and game-breaking. As long as it can't be fixed (i.e. liberating Austrian CS is possible to counteract them, the whole thing can be balanced cost-wise), we may be better off giving them a new CS-related ability. But it's a very fun and active one as well...

Otherwise we can give Sweden something else. The civ does seem Tall right now (= better farms) and maybe a bit conquest oriented. So either straight up science buff might fit, or the gold on farms reintroduced there? Meh... Or Production per Population pushing the Swedes even more away from gold to production?

 

[Tomice]

We still have the option to make Austria's UB mountain-related. A building could offer 2 extra food for every mountain within the city's borders or something similar.

It would represent the flavour of our nation well and it would encourage an unique playstyle: Austria would be the only civ actively seeking the proximity of mountains!

 

[pthmix]

You mean, the only civ apart from the Inca?

Perhaps we could extend the roman ability to give +xx% yields from national wonders for each city conquered in addition to the population?

 

[Tomice]

Damn, right, the Inca! Forgot about them...

Considering it would be an UB instead of an UI, and making it production instead of food, it could still be unique enough.

Still, not as cool as I thought

 

[GenjiKhan]

Sweden gets way too powerful with this bonus production from farms . Even if this bonus gets restricted to military units,it's still quite powerful . The old UA seems quite fine to me and they could be a civilization who benefits from diplomacy . About the UB,maybe its bonus can be reducing the unhappiness of new citizens by 50% .

The part of America's UA is fine,but the part is so boring . America's theme should be about expansion through and ;

 

[void_genesis]

Back on the Netherlands UA, would it be possible to give them a modest happiness boost simply for discovering new luxury resources? (similar to the old spanish gold boost for discovering natural wonders). This would encourage exploration early game and diplomacy late game to enter ai territory.

 

[mitsho]

Sweden gets way too powerful with this bonus production from farms . Even if this bonus gets restricted to military units,it's still quite powerful . The old UA seems quite fine to me and they could be a civilization who benefits from diplomacy . About the UB,maybe its bonus can be reducing the unhappiness of new citizens by 50% .

The thing behind the old UA is that it's a) needlessly complicated, b) is the only UA that benefits another civ as well, c) and on top of that doesn't make you play differently (i.e. you want open borders anyways), d) giving great persons to City States makes you not use them in a fun way for yourself, and e) doesn't go well with its two unique units and military personality.

It also feels wrong to give Great Persons to City States instead of receiving these units from them.

Diplomatic UA's are hard to do as a) they don't go well with multiplayer and more importantly, b) it's hard to find distinct playstyle choices there. I'm not a fan of the production on farms either, but I fail to find a way to make noble prize work in game

If allotment should point more to the economic side of a civs military, one could go more for a "cheaper to buy and pay upkeep for units"-sort of UA. Pro is it makes you play differenty (i.e. buy them when you need them), but this doesn't really work since the AI will constantly attack you as they think you're weak...

I'm not sure how the "unhappiness of new citizens" would work? Can the game make a difference between the current pop and new pop? Why not just make specialists cost less happiness? has an obvious correlation to the farm bonus...

The part of America's UA is fine,but the part is so boring . America's theme should be expansion through and ;

The national is there to allow the expansion through the other means

Back on the Netherlands UA, would it be possible to give them a modest happiness boost simply for discovering new luxury resources? (similar to the old spanish gold boost for discovering natural wonders). This would encourage exploration early game and diplomacy late game to enter ai territory.

Hmm, that could work as well, coupled with the double yields on NW it would be strong enough I'd guess. It also gives you enormous flexibility, what to do with that surplus happiness which you may get rather early. Culture (Tradition opener), Gold (sell'em), Quick Wide Expansion, Tall Pop Growth (with Polders).

I'm okay with a mountain-related bonus for Austria, though not really sure how that effect fits on Coffee Houses

 

[Tomice]

Another quite famous institution is the "Spanish riding school" in Vienna, a major tourist attraction nowadays with their beatiful white Lipizzan horses: Wikipedia
So a unique stable providing culture would be very fitting. And AFAIK there's no unique stable yet? It's also no building anyone would usually build in any city anyway as Thal prefers.



Also, a generally important factor today is tourism. According to Wikipedia: "In 2007, Austria ranked 9th worldwide in international tourism receipts, with 18.9 billion US$. In international tourist arrivals, Austria ranked 12th with 20.8 million tourists."
Considering we have only 8 Mio. inhabitants, we are by far the country with the highest tourism income per person! Sadly, tourism comes to late to be relevant for the game. Even if we take into account that there was significant tourism as early as "Sissy's" lifetime.




Brainstorming summary of things Austria is well-known for:

• Multi-ethnic monarchy
• Social welfare state & free schools (VERY similar to Sweden, but also Germany or France)
• Mountains, alpine farming
• Skiing, winter toursism
• Classical music (Mozart & Co)
• Vienna Opera Ball, Salzburg Festival
• Many famous Musicians and artists, Sigmund Freud, Erwin Schrödinger, Christoph Waltz, Arnold Schwarzenegger
• Strong industry (Red Bull, Swarowski, Silhouette, KTM, Steyr-Mannlicher, Glock)

 

[void_genesis]

Maybe Vienna could have some enhanced options on its great artists?

Would giving them the ability to pop a free social policy and/or culture bomb for a three tile radius be too overpowered? Gameplay wise it would be very different and fun. I remember an old version of VEM that tried three tile culture bombs and it was an amazing way to wage war.

That got me thinking- perhaps Vienna could have the ability to use great artists adjacent to ai cities to culture flip cities into their control- similar to the cIV dynamic but more active and fun.

 

[Gothic_Empire]

Can we please make the celts not suck? Because outside of zerging to the first pantheon, they got nothin' goin' for 'em.

-GE

 

[GenjiKhan]

The thing behind the old UA is that it's a) needlessly complicated, b) is the only UA that benefits another civ as well, c) and on top of that doesn't make you play differently (i.e. you want open borders anyways), d) giving great persons to City States makes you not use them in a fun way for yourself, and e) doesn't go well with its two unique units and military personality.

a)I think the word here is complex,not complicated,as it needs lots of work to get balanced;

b)It's not necessarily the only one,if you consider the luxury-resource related UA of Arabia and Netherlands as a ability that needs the help from other players in order to work well . By the way,I feel this is their main strenght because they are the only one who can benefit more from diplomacy without having to rely on trading;

c)I think it does . For other civs,having many DOFs means only a chance to get more RAs,but for Sweden,it means that they'll need that as well . Plus,the possibility of giving GPs to get provides them with an alternative route to diplomatic victory and cultural victory;

d)Care to explain?

e)It's not related to its UA,so it's not worth answering;

It also feels wrong to give Great Persons to City States instead of receiving these units from them.

It can be these two ways with them . I don't understand your point of view here.

Diplomatic UA's are hard to do as a) they don't go well with multiplayer and more importantly, b) it's hard to find distinct playstyle choices there. I'm not a fan of the production on farms either, but I fail to find a way to make noble prize work in game

a)Well,it's not because of this single element that the whole Sweden must change to a boring and overpowered UA . b)That isn't exactly a fail of the Sweden's UA,but a fail from the game system itself,as there are very few strategies for cultural and diplomatic victories,which is what their UA are good for;

If allotment should point more to the economic side of a civs military, one could go more for a "cheaper to buy and pay upkeep for units"-sort of UA. Pro is it makes you play differenty (i.e. buy them when you need them), but this doesn't really work since the AI will constantly attack you as they think you're weak...

I don't understand why changing Sweden's theme,from a diplomatic civ,to just one more warmonger civ . Maybe that's what their theme should be;

I'm not sure how the "unhappiness of new citizens" would work? Can the game make a difference between the current pop and new pop? Why not just make specialists cost less happiness? has an obvious correlation to the farm bonus...

You know how the Aqueduct works?It's exactly equal,but reduces the amount of that each new citizen consumes,it reduces the that each new citizens produces . I'm not sure if it's possible to do this,but it may be worth trying;

The part of America's UA is fine,but the part is so boring . America's theme should be about expansion through and ;

The national is there to allow the expansion through the other means

Such suggestion is so boring and uninteresting that I'm even impressed that no one has ever complain about it .

 

[Thalassicus]

Most civs have to wait until the Modern Era for infinite expansion, and need cities of at least 10 pop. The UA of -25% from cities allows the US to expand infinitely at the Renaissance Era, two eras earlier than other civs, and can do it with smaller 6 cities. This is based on the minimum number of happiness buildings required for a city to contribute 0 net unhappiness to the empire.

Inca has a UI improving hills next to mountains. Austria's UB could make mountains themselves into useful tiles. I think these are decently different bonuses. The problem is it's impossible to place leaders near mountains, because the game treats mountains as invisible holes in the map. This is an issue for the Incans too. What if the Austiran UB simply requires one nearby mountain tile, like the Observatory?

Another option could be an Austrian Music Hall, to represent the foundation of classical music.

 

[mitsho]

Again, I'm not a fan of the Sweden farms UA myself. Gifting Great Persons to City States means you can't use them in their intended way, more Great Person Rate with Open Borders/Alliances (what's it again?) doesn't change the way you play. Besides, shouldn't Great Persons go to Stockholm to receive the price than Swedish Great Persons go to the City States? Another aspect is that it's a hit or miss ability which you need to trigger, i.e. invest something in it.
That the bonus works together with its UU is a very important factor, there's nothing less fun than two conflicting uniques. (maybe two uu at the same time that you can't use to the full extent). But we're not set on making them military. In fact, replacing one unit with the Folkskola UB goes in the other direction and the Carolean as a infantry unit may be used for defense as well.

I'd suggest a Tall Diplomatic personality for Sweden, maybe together with the UA of receiving Great Persons from City States already at the Friendly level. That Policy has been cut right, so it might fit here. Was it cut because those Great Persons raise the bar for creating new great people. I would like something like this better than gifting great persons away. It could include the Open Borders bonus anyways, but as an added bonus on top, not the main course.

Not sure, less happiness for new citizens is possible. Actually I'm quite sure we can't make a distinction between old and new citizens. Happiness on UB seems a bit overused anyways, maybe a UB that improves villages (in the late game)?

 

[mystikx21]

Generally I agree with mitsho here. The current design of Sweden is not interesting and is confused for the AI, or for that matter a human to make effective use of it. They don't get the GPs from alliances, but rather have to expend them. They're reliant on diplomacy but have two military UUs. Just poor synergies all around. The allotment structure and some means of generating more GPs may not be very sexy as a plan but it does move heavy toward tall diplomatic, with some muscle when needed. There is a clear cohesion in that plan versus the vanilla design that is all over the place. Even if it offers unique diplomatic victory approaches, the problem there is that diplomatic victories are not all that interesting and Patronage not all that powerful for long-term alliances with minor powers.

I could see a UB/UA improving villages but farms makes more sense for Sweden at least.

I don't think making a distinction for new citizens happiness is either a)a desirable mechanic worth trying or b) easy to do. It actually sounds like a terrible idea as it punishes early growth in favor of expansion rather than offering a clear reward for either. I'd agree reducing unhappiness on specialists would make more sense and achieve much the same result in a more useful and less punishing way but I'd also agree more happiness related unique buildings is unnecessary.

The national happiness on America is perfectly fine, the one problem is that massive expansion with a free tech granting building is going to be very overpowered. You could easily pick up 15-20 cities by the time you get labs and chew through the entire rest of the tech tree. It should help the space race, not guarantee its victory. I'd have similar concerns about the Romans if they are getting population from conquests. Example: I fought a war against Carthage and they had something like 25 cities, with all the refugees ending up in Carthage at the far end of their empire. If I hadn't been blockading it throughout to starve it down, it would easily have been size 50 when I conquered it (as it was, it was still size 45). And that's just one civ. Rome could easily be size 50 by the mid-industrial era from conquering other civs and natural growth. Something to consider.

Pretty sure you can still get free GPs from CS in the Freedom tree. But perhaps that will be overhauled still.

 

[GenjiKhan]

Most civs have to wait until the Modern Era for infinite expansion, and need cities of at least 10 pop. The UA of -25% from cities allows the US to expand infinitely at the Renaissance Era, two eras earlier than other civs, and can do it with smaller 6 cities.

Such UA fits their expansion theme,but my concern is that such bonus is passive and doesn't allow the player to create more strategies with it . For that reason that I liked the part and disliked the part . It shouldn't be that hard to complement this UA with another ability that fits their expansionist theme .

I'd suggest a Tall Diplomatic personality for Sweden, maybe together with the UA of receiving Great Persons from City States already at the Friendly level. That Policy has been cut right, so it might fit here. Was it cut because those Great Persons raise the bar for creating new great people. I would like something like this better than gifting great persons away. It could include the Open Borders bonus anyways, but as an added bonus on top, not the main course.

Well,one thing we both agree is that the suggested UA of Swedenc5production: on farms) isn't good enough to replace the vanilla's UA of Sweden . About your suggestion of UA,it would become easily overpowered,if it doesn't have any drawback . But having a drawback on an UA would be highly controversial,or am I wrong?

 

[mystikx21]

1) There's no other good mechanic to expand and grow rapidly because the primary limiting agent to expanding is happiness. It's a passive bonus, but it's a very powerful passive bonus. Being able to expand aggressively even in the early-mid game rather than in the late game is a distinct play style. I don't understand the problem there. I don't think a UA with gold on specialist effect (if it works like the liberty tree production on specialist) is going to do very much at all to behave as expansionist or create new strategies. It's just a nice little bonus for having more cities to push out some extra gold in them.

2) I don't think the problem is whether it's good or not good enough to replace the vanilla UA for Sweden, I agree the farm idea would need paired with something else (specialist reduction?, higher GP rate?) to be equally useful without becoming overpowered. But this isn't really a defence of the existing UA to say so. I think the problem is that the vanilla UA would be better if it could fit with other mechanics that we can't very well do (say, diplomatic influence on a UB for minor civs, ways to manipulate the diplomacy of other major civs, or altering the conditions for diplomatic wins, other than with CSD). Increasing rewards from CS is already another civ. That doesn't leave much we can do with what it offers us that makes it very useful or interesting.

This alternative of more frequent GPs from CS would be better also and would only become overpowered if it didn't decrease cost of new GPs (it has a downside). The using GPs to gain alliances with minor civs is also not that interesting. You can already do this with Merchants and gold/quests with any civ. I'd rather just use the other GPs for usual purposes rather than to garner favor and influence. It would be far better to receive them than to give them as a result and encourage more diplomatic activity on your part because there are definite rewards.

 

[Gothic_Empire]

Would it be possible for Swedish GP to automatically grant influence with a CS once they're spent? It's sort of strange to assume that a GP could only do one thing in his lifetime in the first place. =)
Then Sweden would have a more obvious mechanic that didn't feel like a giant waste in opportunity cost.

RE: Celts - what if they had a building that granted units the "Kill Unit = Faith" promotion?

 

[Tomice]

About Babylon:

Should we change the Bowman to have a promotion instead of just higher strenght numbers? I find promotions that are kept on upgrade more interesting.

What about making it a melee/ranged hybrid unit, by removing the "may not melee attack" promotion and giving it a bonus defense promotion? Ranged units cannot capture cities or civilians, a unit that can would be something interesting. I know, Babylon is a defensive civ, so it might not fit perfectly, but it's something worth brainstorming IMO.

If possible, the effect could fit well on another UU maybe (one of the elephant UU's maybe?).

 

[mystikx21]

There's the old "AI won't understand how to use it" problem with making a unit ranged and melee.

Units keeping promotions is more interesting but units with high strength are now more valuable as they don't generate extra upkeep costs.