Leaders: Part 2

[albie_123]

As a side note, since they're now out of use: The model/icon for Landsknecht would work perfectly for the Levy, the Minuteman for the Skirmisher, and the Foreign Legion for the Light Infantry. Gadraut model/icon could then be used for sentinels. (The icon I made which is being used for sentinels is pretty terrible.)

 

[ExpiredReign]

The blanks we need to fill in are:
*
*
Swedish Folkskola UB bonus
*

Looking at the background of this it appears to be more of a 'Public School' system than a 'University' system, although it has promoted further education which is evidenced in the fact about 1/3 of Swedes in 2000 were holding a tertiary degree.
Maybe this UB could be a Public School that provides a free University upon completion. Additionally for each Folkskola a GS appears at that city. Maybe limit this to 3 or 4.

 

[ExpiredReign]

The blanks we need to fill in are:
Celtic uniques
*
*
*

There is quite a lot said about Celtic chariot tactics being the thing that amazed Julius Caesar when invading Britain.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essedum#Central_Europe_and_Britain_and_Ireland

Perhaps a unit along the lines of the Barbarian's Hunter.

 

[Ahriman]

The "adjacent to city" effect for improvements would fit well for America, too!
"Suburb"

For the modern US, true, but this would be pretty odd in a pre-modern period ;-)

The obvious bonus Rome got from much of their conquests was slaves. Each city they conquer should increase the Capital's pop by one, as well as any tech or cultural bonuses.

I think the pop increase isn't enough by itself, but I like it, I think it has good flavor, and would support an interestingly different playstyle: wide but with a super-capital.

The model/icon for Landsknecht would work perfectly for the Levy, the Minuteman for the Skirmisher, and the Foreign Legion for the Light Infantry.

Good call.

 

[agc28]

Sweden I think we should keep the 10%GPP per friend bonus. This is a very unique bonus and grants a unique style of play - Peaceful play. No other civilization has anything similar that promotes peaceful play, and I believe we should keep this bonus. This bonus stacks (I think), so if you have at least 4-5 friends, this is actually an extremely powerful UA.

The problem is that this UA is weak on small maps with few civs, and strong on huge maps. If you play with extra civs (22 civs), you can get up to +220% Great Person points (on paper)

In order to compensate for this difference, I propose the following:

Gain 20% GPP for the first friend. Gain 15% for the second. Gain 10% for the third friend. And gain 5% for every additional friend thereafter. (Numbers could be tweaked, of course)

And does the AI understand how to gift great people to CSs?

 

[Alteris]

I'm okay with losing the culture aspect since we have other civs excelling at culture now. Movement + less puppet penalty sounds okay. The Satrap court is also something that should be built in Puppet cities rather fast, so that works as well. (Only the AI will suck at using it...). However, culture buildings already stay on conquest in this mod (since culture is one of the bigger problems for conquest empires and the idea is that they don't fall too far back in culture themselves, otherwise the social policy system - and the nationalism tree especially - are useless (for them)).

I was thinking you'd do one or the other, depending on the core orientation Persia would have - either conquest or culture focused. So if Persia remains culture focused it would be +x% culture in golden ages. If it changes to conquest focused it would use the movement bonus.

Either of these would be paired with the better puppeted cities allowing Persia to build a bigger empire quicker than most civs with puppet cities contributing more culturally. The idea is they'd become like normal cities almost, just without the ability to choose what to build and with a bit more unhappiness and less non-cultural yields. This combined with the movement boost would make conquest-oriented Persia able to build an empire quicker than others without crushing its economy. Combined with the +x% culture boost would make culture-oriented Persia be more inclined to a limited amount of war as the cost/benefit ratio for taking on a few puppets (who don't add to the policy threshholds) tilts more in favor of some conquest.

I'd propose:
If Conquest Persia:
+1 Movement in Golden Ages, no extra unhappiness or culture yield penalty from puppeted cities

If Cultural Persia:
+30% culture in Golden Ages, -50% extra unhappiness and no yield penalties in puppeted cities

Persia's basically able to get a jump on an early empire with these bonuses, which would normally kick in much slower with courthouses and at the cost of slower policies. Using the cultural one would also mean they could take a few puppets and actually come out with a pretty hefty boost in policies and would prefer that to actually annexing the cities. I think both foster a unique style of play.

The historical base for these ideas would be the rapidity with which the Achaemenids overran the ancient Middle East, and the satrapy system of government, leaving the local power structure and cultures entirely alone and treating them with benevolence so long as they bowed to the Persian king. It was the most far reaching empire the world had seen to that point.

Feel free to beat around those ideas a bit, I'm sure they're flawed in some way - I'm not hardly an expert level player.

 

[Babri]

The specialist UA on Germany is my least favorite UA at the moment - but that may be just a personal aversion to non-military abilities.

Agreed. We have already tried a similar UA with Ottomans (higher yields for specialists) and it ended up being too boring & eventually scraped out. I would prefer a military-production based UA which also has a good synergy with good tech. Prototype UA sounded like a good idea but its effect might need to be changed to be more appealing.

The thing interests me about prototype UA idea is that its effect could be quite unique & flavourful. And there is nothing very similar to it. However on the other hand we have many policies, wonders, and even UA of Korea etc which adds to specialist yields, making it fairly generic.

There could be a UA reflecting Prussian military discipline but that would be too military focused. Something like: Land units start with a free promotion, 10% strength boost with every adjacent melee unit & additional bonus Vs less promoted units.


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[mitsho]

I think that'd be ok. A farm bonus means they're going to want to use lots of farms, which means lots of food, which supports specialists.

That was my original reasoning... Though the University/Folkskola comes rather late so it needs to be a strong bonus (100% Great Person Rate?) which then overlaps with the Austrian Kaffeehaus. But that one could gain something related more to annexed City States?

Doesn't seem that similar. To me the Dojo is mostly about extra experience while the Krepost is mostly about more strategic resources.

Oops, I somehow was under the impression the Dojo gave on strategics. (Still I think a Dojo = Armory replacement that gives 10 extra instant experience to all units within 4 tiles of the city could be fun and more active, instant and to already built because the armory is later on. not important though )

As a side note, since they're now out of use: The model/icon for Landsknecht would work perfectly for the Levy, the Minuteman for the Skirmisher, and the Foreign Legion for the Light Infantry. Gadraut model/icon could then be used for sentinels. (The icon I made which is being used for sentinels is pretty terrible.)

Good catch, and the Quinquireme for ancient ships?

Looking at the background of this it appears to be more of a 'Public School' system than a 'University' system, although it has promoted further education which is evidenced in the fact about 1/3 of Swedes in 2000 were holding a tertiary degree.
Maybe this UB could be a Public School that provides a free University upon completion. Additionally for each Folkskola a GS appears at that city. Maybe limit this to 3 or 4.

Public School is an upgrade to a University in civ, and the Folksskola is a University replacement... Free Great Persons is too strong for a University replacement, I'd say, we can also move it later though

If Conquest Persia:
+1 Movement in Golden Ages, no extra unhappiness or culture yield penalty from puppeted cities

If Cultural Persia:
+30% culture in Golden Ages, -50% extra unhappiness and no yield penalties in puppeted cities

Persia's basically able to get a jump on an early empire with these bonuses, which would normally kick in much slower with courthouses and at the cost of slower policies. Using the cultural one would also mean they could take a few puppets and actually come out with a pretty hefty boost in policies and would prefer that to actually annexing the cities. I think both foster a unique style of play.

The historical base for these ideas would be the rapidity with which the Achaemenids overran the ancient Middle East, and the satrapy system of government, leaving the local power structure and cultures entirely alone and treating them with benevolence so long as they bowed to the Persian king. It was the most far reaching empire the world had seen to that point.

Both sound interesting, I'd guess we don't want to benefit puppeted cities since they are a passive aspect of the game and even with your variations, you come up better if you annex them, no? (Btw. this seems to have been reintroduced on the list on page 1)

Agreed. We have already tried a similar UA with Ottomans (higher yields for specialists) and it ended up being too boring & eventually scraped out. I would prefer a military-production based UA which also has a good synergy with good tech. Prototype UA sounded like a good idea but its effect might need to be changed to be more appealing.

The thing interests me about prototype UA idea is that its effect could be quite unique & flavourful. And there is nothing very similar to it. However on the other hand we have many policies, wonders, and even UA of Korea etc which adds to specialist yields, making it fairly generic.

There could be a UA reflecting Prussian military discipline but that would be too military focused. Something like: Land units start with a free promotion, 10% strength boost with every adjacent melee unit & additional bonus Vs less promoted units.

The Ottoman UA was different in that it was a straight buff to all specialists and didn't change the way we play. The German Prussian Virtues UA tries to make two specialists interchangeable and thus give us more flexibility in where to get the yield. It certainly was an underappreciated one.

The Prototype UA needs to be tested on how strong it is (or if we need to give it a trigger). And I feel there's synergy with the specialist on publishing house and the stronger tank. The first makes you tech to the later

For India
UB: Ceremonial Palace, a Palace that gives city instead of national happiness and adds 1 and 1 on improved river tiles.
India is famous for lots of petty kingdoms (divide et impera by the British), so that fits. Palaces are capped at 3 so it can be stronger and leads to Tall, when we cut out the wide bonus of that building (and change it to a tall one).

For the Dutch
UA: Double Yields from Open Borders, Research Agreements and Natural Wonders.
This makes them friendly to Big Civs and may lead them to snipe a few city states with Natural Wonders. CS are also often Coastal which help with Polders and Sea Beggars.

For the Celts: What about Hill Figures or Menhirs, i.e. a UI adding culture (and the mine yield) to hills? Too similar to the Polynesians? We can also make the Dun a hill UI, faith and culture?

 

[Alteris]

Question on the Celts UA - is that going to include faster holy warrior units as well?

Both sound interesting, I'd guess we don't want to benefit puppeted cities since they are a passive aspect of the game and even with your variations, you come up better if you annex them, no? (Btw. this seems to have been reintroduced on the list on page 1)

I think in many cases you'd want to leave them puppeted as the cultural yields would be higher. If it doesn't seem strong enough, perhaps it could get pushed up to where puppeted cities have no disadvantage over normal cities other than you can't direct construction. The tradeoff for Persia becomes to have control over city production (annex), versus better for culture (puppet). Persia also gets the advantage of being able to take over cities and have them instantly performing at 100% without having to wait for a courthouse. This would it seem give them a good edge in an early empire.

I see your point about the passive benefit. I agree active ones are more exciting. What if Persia received something like an instant heal of all units, say +50 hp, in a certain range (2 tiles?) upon city capture in golden ages? That seems more active and would promote Persia as something of a blitz civ combined with that movement bonus.

You have the golden age blitz with them which encourages using those as a war weapon, and can better afford to do it with less taxing cities immediately upon conquest.

I want to think up an active ability that could be used for a culture-oriented Persia in golden ages, but none comes to mind. Culture from city conquest is in Nationalism. Perhaps double construction speed of something (cultural and religious buildings?) in golden ages?

If Conquest Persia:
+1 Movement and units heal upon city capture in Golden Ages, puppeted cities have no happiness or yield penalties

If Cultural Persia:
+30% culture in Golden Ages + some active cultural oriented golden age benefit, puppeted cities have no happiness or yield penalties

 

[void_genesis]

One thought for the netherlands: would it be possible to allow workers to collect luxury plantation based resources (silk, dyes, spices, sugar, citrus, maybe bananas) around the world and bring them back to plant in workable tiles? This would fit with the dutch history of exceptional horticultural skill, plus help support taller cities. Maybe only allow them to be planted on marsh tiles to avoid making it too overpowered......

 

[mitsho]

How would that work gameplay wise? Would mostly be a really weak ability as it takes quite a lot of effort to benefit from it, so nothing for the AI. I'd also feel that moving ressources around isn't something civ5 is set up, although it should be

@Alteris I assume not since there's nothing that makes them religious, they are just built with faith, just faster missionaries and inquisitors.

 

[Tomice]

One more thing about Carthage: In vanilla their free harbor allows trade routes as early as the second city is founded.

I've changed them to get a free lighthouse in my own little modmod of GEM (meaning they work at least partly as intended), but they don't get trade routes before a certain tech level (Trading IIRC?).

So we should also discuss which version they should get once they're correctly implemented into GEM. I'd say the vanilla version (as it is more powerful and unique) unless we find out they're too strong this way.

 

[Eiger2112]

A possibility for how Void_Genesis's idea for Dutch resources might work: As soon as they get access to any growable resource (spices, citrus, dyes, cotton, incense, silk, sugar, truffles, wine?) they would immediately (delay would be better but harder to code) receive a second copy of that resource. It wouldn't have to be placed on a tile, just available to them like the GEM resource "Movies" is made available once you build the Hollywood WW.

So if they trade for Spices with another empire, they'd then have 2 spices, and could let that Trade deal expire and still have 1. If they have Sugar on a tile, and build a plantation, they'd then have 2 sugars. If they lose that city or the plantation is pillaged, they'd still have 1.

This actually works out quite similar, but more powerful, to their vanilla G&K UA, but it gives them full happiness if they trade away their original 1 (because they now still have one). Still, they get no benefit if they're not able to trade it (no friendly civs without it, or in an isolated start), but potentially some more happiness and some cash if they can sell these extra copies.

Cheers, Eiger

 

[bagas12]

As we are giving the Ottomans a capital centric UA , should we call the ability the Crossroad of the world ? As contantinople was nicknamed in Ottomans reign time, it sounds better imo than "Tribute".


And about the UA of the dutch, giving happines instead plus gold from open boards, is more flavorful as to get the real money its is needed to sell the luxuries, if we give plus gold we will just open board everyone and keep the luxuries, in other words, we are not actually trading.

And was not the East India Company about it? Seeking new luxuries to sell?



A question. Is there a way to mod the city states to, whem they give their luxuries we can sell it?

 

[Brannock]

Augustus's ability seems like it would overlap with spying in a bad way. Not really a fan of it. I like the Forum very much though and am excited to see where Rome might go. They have a solid foundation with that UU and UB.

How would Suleiman's ability work? Gold is global. Or would we be directly adding +1 gold to capital tile yield (thus gaining Mint/etc bonuses), or what?

I feel like I would really miss Washington's +1 sight. Might be worth moving that onto a warmonger. +1 Sight is a very underrated ability. Attila? Askia?

Still not convinced on NASA Center. As I mentioned before, free tech seems hilariously powerful for something you can build in every city. Washington would essentially be able to threaten an imminent Science victory (and Giant Death Robots) once he techs Plastics. On the other hand, beelining Plastics means Washington has a lot of techs to backfill and even a wide America would have trouble clearing out the entire tree within a couple dozen turns. Hmm. I'm on the fence.

"Trading Post" could also be a potential avenue for an UB for America. Fits with the economy and expansionism - Market that adds food per resource worked?

England seems a bit weak after stripping away two of their bonuses.

Very impressed with France's rework. Excited to play with it.

 

[Thalassicus]

@mitsho
If we move the GP rate bonus from the Austrian UB to the Swedish UB, we need to find a new bonus for the Austrians.

Krepost doubles strategic quantity (like the Bazaar doubles luxury quantity). Dojo gives experience for garrisoned units, with a little culture for strategics on the side.

@Ahriman
The rate of policies and cultural border expansion should be about the same in the current version as v12. Border costs halved, as did the cost to fill out 12 or more policies. Early policy costs were somewhat more complex, but policy rate should still be about the same as before. You can see the numbers on the Policy Costs tab of GEM_Details.xls.

@Eiger2112
I like your idea of Rome gaining population from each conquered city. That's very interesting! It might be more intuitive than my tech-absorbing idea. I'll think about it.

@Ahriman
I focus on realistic timing of unique units, but not buildings, because early buildings are late buildings. It's an abstract premise for Washington to lead the US for six millenia anyway.

@ExpiredReign
Sweden's early Public School is like England's early Steam Mill. It represents how they were some of the first nations to do public education and industrialization, respectively.

@mitsho
Would double OB/RA rewards encourage the Dutch to play differently?

@void_genesis
What if the Dutch gain permanent access to luxuries they acquire? This makes their UA a double-sided effect, encouraging us to both give our last copy of luxuries, and gain the last copy of other people. Say Alice is the Dutch and has 1 Marble, while Bob has 1 Whale. Alice offers a trade with marble+money to Bob for his single Whale. After the trade expires, Alice retains both marble and while. She can then trade away the marble to Bob again with a more favorable deal than before.

@Alteris
I like your idea of Persian city captures healing nearby units.

My goal with puppets and annexation is puppeting should be better for small cities, while annexation is better for large cities. I managed to achieve this in VEM. The unmodded game has several bugs and problems with puppets/annexation, and several limitations with the game tools make it difficult, so it's been a low priority for GEM.

@Tomice
I don't understand your question. Are you saying basegame harbors connect cities for trade immediately in G&K, but lighthouses require the trade tech to do that in GEM? The basegame and modded versions use the same AllowsWaterRoutes building effect, so they should work the same way.

@Brannock
I agree +1 sight is underrated. I'd be okay with moving that to Askia.

 

[mitsho]

Yeah, I mistook the added culture on strategics for production on the Dojo. Nevertheless, I feel one of those could become a Armory UB. As for the Great Person effect, I feel it fits better gameplay wise for the Swedes, though there were arguably more famous Austrians (Mozart to Metternich). Austria should receive something that helps 'annexed' city states (i.e. the double yield power), but those don't really seem historical... As for the Dutch and the activity of the "double yield from OB and RA", you're right they're not. But when we can't think of anything else... It at least deters us from going to war, that's a start void_genesis proposal may be too strong if we can acquire "doubles" of one luxury we don't have. Otherwise, its strength is situational. In any case, it deters us from going wide since that would give us something we already have (often). It's worth trying though.

I guess, Tomice forgot that even in the base game, the Wheel was needed for a traderoute, since that was a tech we normally got quite fast while Trade is a bit more "2nd priority" in GEM.

As another effect for a Tall playstyle, would it be possible to make the fourth ring workable? It's a small bonus, but it might be a fun one. It also doesn't much help wide when wide means that cities are closer together.

On second thought, I agree that the Barbary Port is a bad idea for a UB for the Ottomans. Thing is we only actually need one of those buildings. The rest are "useless". I'd say that is a bad design for a UB. A buff to watertiles (additional yields) however would feel wrong on the Ottomans, but maybe a +25% building production buff would be interesting (simulating construction through means acquired by piracy) and have synergy with the UA. I'm not a hundred percent sure how the UA's supposed to work though, as instant gold is a nationwide value It'd most of the times go right back to the empires through construction... Also there are many buildings that can be built and that may result in a "back-and-forth" effect where you buy building A giving you enough gold to go over treshhold to buy building B in the same city. That feels just wrong for the Ottoman empire who struggled so much with building the infrastructure of its empire...

 

[Eiger2112]

As another effect for a Tall playstyle, would it be possible to make the fourth ring workable? It's a small bonus, but it might be a fun one. It also doesn't much help wide when wide means that cities are closer together.

I like that idea a lot. And I think the bonus might be more than small, since you could pick and choose from a LOT more tiles. Coupled with something like what we're thinking for Rome, adding Pop from conquest might be very powerful for tall, and then you could limit it to Capital-only?

It might also work for Babylon which somebody else mentioned seems, historically, to lend itself to a tall strategy. Or India. For either, not capital-limited and combined with a river growth bonus, it would be powerful.

Tricky part might be if it was combined with something like the Banuae Rice Terraces, or Church of Lalibela, that effect all hill tiles within city radius? Could those be made to work with the wider workable radius? And if so, SHOULD it work wider, or is that just too much synergy?

Cheers, Eiger

 

[Alteris]

@Alteris
I like your idea of Persian city captures healing nearby units.

My goal with puppets and annexation is puppeting should be better for small cities, while annexation is better for large cities. I managed to achieve this in VEM. The unmodded game has several bugs and problems with puppets/annexation, and several limitations with the game tools make it difficult, so it's been a low priority for GEM.

Gotcha, thanks for the info on the puppet/annex balance in the mod.

I've been trying to think of a more interesting active cultural bonus for Persia, but nothing comes to mind so far.

This is the best I can come up with for now:
In Golden Ages +1 Movement, +50% culture, and units within 2 tiles of a conquered city heal by 50%

Would that unit healing bonus be too strong?

One of the three abilities could be toned down if they seemed too hefty. Seeing as how they only come in golden ages, though, they might work the way they are.

Also, did the Satrap's Court get moved back to Banking in a recent update? I seem to remember it being on Trade - not sure if my version is just out of whack or that was an intentional shift.

 

[Stalker0]

This is the best I can come up with for now:
In Golden Ages +1 Movement, +50% culture, and units within 2 tiles of a conquered city heal by 50%

Even if all persia gets is the 50% culture, its completely worth it for a UA.