Leaders: Part 2

[albie_123]

I always thought starting the UA on Calendar not only made a whole lot more sense, but also was a good spot - early enough to get you going fast, but not so early that you could manage some seriously OP tactics in the first few turns.

 

[mystikx21]

Various:

I like the Gribeauval Gun no set up idea much more over the no unit penalty.

I think Hwacha still needs amended to have regular treb strength but no unit malus and a friendly territory bonus. I don't know if that's a better fit than the Turtle Ship is historically, but it seems to make more sense in synergy for game-play to give them a strong defensive ranged UU than a ship.

I like the spice market idea with instant gold on growth.

I wouldn't mind the Ottomans getting the Roman UA or at the very least providing them with "tributes" in gold from cities.

I don't like the idea of any civ getting bonuses to tiles right next to the city. That could entail a degree of micromanagement for picking where you put the city that's already fairly heavy. We already effectively have "suburbs" as a concept by having villages in my opinion and could be represented with a bonus to them where other civs could get bonuses to pastures (Huns had this) or camps (I could see this on the Iroquois) or farms (Korea/Sweden) or forests/jungles (Celts, Iroquois).

Agreed we could move forward the Mayan UA from Theology, or at least remove the Currency requirement on Theology to make it easier to beeline. Calendar does make more sense, but seems a little too early. That takes an early medieval tech and moves it to late ancient. Maybe mathematics as an early classical would work, or Philosophy as a late classical.

I like the idea of moving the food on rivers to Egypt rather than India. India could still use a river flavor though (faith on rivers?)

I like keeping the bonuses to specialists in Germany. I like not having the Panzers early, but the bonus XP is nice. I suppose I could do with the prototype idea with a powerful bonus to one unit, provided the specialist bonus stays somewhere. I like that one.

Cossack should definitely stay as a Cavalry.

 

[albie_123]

The specialist UA on Germany is my least favorite UA at the moment - but that may be just a personal aversion to non-military abilities.

Been meaning to ask for a while - what's the significance of bold / faded leaders in the personality table?

 

[mitsho]

I wouldn't mind the Ottomans getting the Roman UA or at the very least providing them with "tributes" in gold from cities.

It does seem flavourful and realistic, doesn't it? More so for than for the Ethiopians (maybe another yield and not capital-bound for them).

I don't like the idea of any civ getting bonuses to tiles right next to the city. That could entail a degree of micromanagement for picking where you put the city that's already fairly heavy. We already effectively have "suburbs" as a concept by having villages in my opinion and could be represented with a bonus to them where other civs could get bonuses to pastures (Huns had this) or camps (I could see this on the Iroquois) or farms (Korea/Sweden) or forests/jungles (Celts, Iroquois).

I'd like to reserve the pasture bonus for the Zulu/Bantu and their Kraal. Otherwise, good points Nevertheless, it might be a more active trigger for the American gold bonus than "specialist".

I like keeping the bonuses to specialists in Germany. I like not having the Panzers early, but the bonus XP is nice. I suppose I could do with the prototype idea with a powerful bonus to one unit, provided the specialist bonus stays somewhere. I like that one.

I've put it weakened on the publishing house, since it doesn't seem that popular as a UA on itself. Problem is the publishing house is not really on the tech line for Germany to make use of such a bonus, no?

Been meaning to ask for a while - what's the significance of bold / faded leaders in the personality table?

Bold is Gods&Kings-leaders and Faded DLC. It's to keep a balanced pool of personalities even if people don't have all the civs.


Double Yield from NW on the Dutch UA? Conquer some far off city states (i.e. Indonesia) with your Sea Beggars? Though I like to have a few peaceful Europeans and they seem to vanish by the minute... OTherwise a generic warlike leader like the Aztecs or Japan might fit? Someone that goes out to conquer stuff...

 

[mystikx21]

Problem is the publishing house is not really on the tech line for Germany to make use of such a bonus, no?

No but you'd need the Publishing House to make use of the combat bonuses... We could also change where Germany gets it though in the same way that other civs can get certain buildings or units faster or sooner.

 

[sukritact]

I agree with the Ottoman UA proposal and the moving up the Mayan UA (I vote Philosophy).

For Egypt (the same proposal, just shifting things around):

UA: The Gift of The Nile, +1 Food on Rivers.
UB: Scribal School, replaces Library, +20% Wonder Construction.

The food makes more sense earlier and helps cities grow; you'll be focusing more on infrastructure as opposed to wonders early on. When you want to start building wonders you get the Scribal School. A bit more synergy IMHO.

As for why a Scribal School would aid wonder building: Egyptian monuments prominently featured spells and hieroglyphs (which is the ceremonial script IIRC); you needed scribes to oversee the work.

 

[AlpsStranger]

Hey, in one of the GEM XMLs it says

<Update>
	<Where Type="TRAIT_LONG_COUNT" />
	<Set NoWarrior="true"
			FreeUnit="UNITCLASS_ARCHER"
			FreeUnitPrereqTech="NULL"
				/>
</Update>

I presume I could add something similar to experiment with starting the Long Count at calendar or philosophy. Indulge someone with no mod experience for a moment and tell me what I'd have to add to the XML file.

 

[mystikx21]

<Row>
			<Type>TRAIT_LONG_COUNT</Type>
			<Description>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_LONG_COUNT</Description>
			<ShortDescription>TXT_KEY_TRAIT_LONG_COUNT_SHORT</ShortDescription>
			<MayaCalendarBonuses>true</MayaCalendarBonuses>
			<PrereqTech>TECH_THEOLOGY</PrereqTech>
		</Row>

This is the thing you'd have to update. To mod it in the GEM file add a line to change the PrereqTech and set it to the tech desired (eg, TECH_PHILOSOPHY or TECH_MATHEMATICS)

It would look like this.

<Update>
	<Where Type="TRAIT_LONG_COUNT" />
	<Set NoWarrior="true"
			FreeUnit="UNITCLASS_ARCHER"
			FreeUnitPrereqTech="NULL"
                        PrereqTech="TECH_PHILOSOPHY"
				/>
</Update>

 

[sukritact]

Nevermind, the question was answered...

 

[Thalassicus]

I updated the table again with recent feedback.

The blanks we need to fill in are:

• Celtic uniques
• Dutch open border bonus
• Swedish Folkskola UB bonus
• Where to put natural wonder bonus (from Spain's old UA)

Hey, do you think we could look into the Maya more?

@agc28
I have not played the unmodded game in a long time, so I was unaware it was so easy to beeline Theology in G&K. I believe it was harder in vanilla, which is what the mod's based on. I played the Mayans several times and feel they are already a very powerful civ. I'm okay with removing the Currency-Theology link, however, and did so for Gem 1.13.5.

To do this in your current game open Research/GER_TechPrereqs.xml, and change this:

<Row>
    <PrereqTech>TECH_CURRENCY</PrereqTech>
    <TechType>TECH_THEOLOGY</TechType>
</Row>

to this:

<Row>
    <PrereqTech>TECH_GUILDS</PrereqTech>
    <TechType>TECH_EDUCATION</TechType>
</Row>

 

[AlpsStranger]

Wonderful, thanks Thal

 

[Ahriman]

There's lots of cool stuff here to look forward to.

I have a bit of a problem with national happiness from OB for the Dutch. IMO the Dutch should be a coastal/tall civ, unlike coastal wide for Carthage. I think this fits with a food bonus on polders (I assume polders are farms that give 1 extra food if built on a marsh or coastal tile) and with the historic flavor of the Netherlands: a very small but very densely populated country. Happiness doesn't really help this, it encourages them to go wide.
I think a peaceful trade boost from OB is flavorful, but is there some other yield we could give?

I still really don't think the prototypes makes any sense for Germany; again, it makes them an early-game military power (early game is where the beginning of most units line are) that has to conquer fast in order to actually benefit from the UA. It also has poor synergy with the other benefits.

I don't understand why India's sanitation system is being changed. It worked fine. With happiness, India is now being pushed to Wide, which means that the faith-per-pop shrine doesn't fit.

2 culture per city for Greece is going to be weak. Make it at least 3. At 4 culture per city they sound fun to play, at 2 I'm not going to bother. Note that this is equivalent to 1 culture per turn in vanilla.

The Ottoman UA is hard to interpret: what does "send to capital" mean. Just gives instant gold when you build them? It sounds interesting.

I still don't like that Rome's UA doesn't work if you're fighting someone technically behind you. It seems very weak.

I don't think any civ needs a national wonder bonus. Do we no longer have a policy in Freedom that does that?

 

[bagas12]

The open border with mutual happiness is good enough, so we can sell all luxuries and still be above happiness, but make it a big bonus so it dont need have open border with all players to be useful

-----------------

 

[Thalassicus]

@Ahriman
I'm okay with 4-culture per city for the Greeks. I changed Cossacks back to a Dragoon replacement, since you and several others requested that. I'm still uncertain what sort of open border bonus to give for the Dutch.

Ottoman Tribute sends gold to the capital when we build in non-capital cities. So like... if we build a monument in city #2, the capital gains gold equal to X% of the production cost of a Monument.

How do you feel about the Ottoman Barbary Port? You were concerned like me that a Warehouse replacement comes too late. The Harbor unlocks simultaneously with the first melee ship, so I think that might work. It will basically be the same as before (melee ships can capture ships), but without the turn-0 Liburna.

I like India's river bonus, and would personally like to keep it. However, I believe people made a valid point that Egypt was more river-focused than India. The Egyptian civilization basically exists in a narrow region along the Nile. Egyptian farming methods were also unique compared to other river civilizations. Their construction and maintenance was locally organized, instead of state-run like most other early civilizations, so it survived largely intact through periods of political and social turmoil.

I agree happiness doesn't really fit for Indus Sanitation, but I don't know what else to do.

I don't think any civ needs a national wonder bonus. Do we no longer have a policy in Freedom that does that?

Natural wonder bonus, double yields from terrain like the Grand Mesa. I get those words mixed up too. A lot of people liked that bonus, and want to find a home for it somewhere.

 

[Ahriman]

I'm still uncertain what sort of open border bonus to give for the Dutch.

I guess extra gold is one possibility, to help them build a general commercial theme. And it's still useful for Tall.

Ottoman Tribute sends gold to the capital when we build in non-capital cities. So like... if we build a monument in city #2, the capital gains gold equal to X% of the production cost of a Monument.

But what do you mean: the capital gains the gold. Do you mean that it is a one-shot gold boost, but laundered through the capital so as to benefit from the capital's gold modifiers?

I would have thought that the "tribute to capital" would just be a flavor thing, and we'd just give a straight one-shot amount of gold to the player, not to the capital.

How do you feel about the Ottoman Barbary Port? You were concerned like me that a Warehouse replacement comes too late. The Harbor unlocks simultaneously with the first melee ship, so I think that might work.

Might work... but still, probably I am only ever going to benefit from 1-2 of them. So it's not really a very interesting UB, particularly for a wide empire, because it doesn't benefit from having lots of copies.

I like India's river bonus, and would personally like to keep it. However, I believe people made a valid point that Egypt was more river-focused than India. The Egyptian civilization basically exists in a narrow region along the Nile. Egyptian farming methods were also unique compared to other river civilizations. Their construction and maintenance was locally organized, instead of state-run like most other early civilizations, so it survived largely intact through periods of political and social turmoil.

I agree happiness doesn't really fit for Indus Sanitation, but I don't know what else to do.

I can see making Egypt a river-oriented Tall/wonder building Monster. That will be very powerful, but fun.

But then India needs a rework. Population and happiness can be ok, but it's pushing you wide, so the shrine building needs to be retooled to support wide.
One possibility would be to have it give +extra faith if it is in a city that has a majority religion. But maybe that sounds like the opposite of religious tolerance/pluralism.

Natural wonder bonus, double yields from terrain like the Grand Mesa. I get those words mixed up too. A lot of people liked that bonus, and want to find a home for it somewhere.

Ah, ok. It's not really my thing, so I have no particular opinion. I think if it fits anywhere then it fits on an exploration-themed civ, as Spain used to be, but we don't really have that anymore.

 

[mitsho]

What's the problem with a bigger Great Person Rate on the Folkskola for Sweden?

For India and Rivers, there's faith (but the civ already has enough of it) or culture (locks them too much to that VC?). I'd prefer a UI (we don't have many of those, do we) that provides an extra yield next to Rivers.

I feel like the Dutch should excel at Gold, not Happiness. What if we make the East India Company a National Wonder which doubles the yields of Natural Wonders and gives culture per traded luxury or Open Borders or so. I always felt there could be a Naval based National Wonder in General, enhancing something like the effects above? However, then what to do with the Sea Beggar?

And lastly, no comment on the Krepost = Dojo similarity?

 

[mystikx21]

I agree happiness doesn't really fit for Indus Sanitation, but I don't know what else to do.

Faith/culture on rivers? Or add to raw food production % wise instead of +1 yields on rivers?

@Ahriman, because culture was scaled down, including in costs somewhat, 2 culture is probably pretty close to 2 culture. I'd prefer 4 myself, but would like to see culture scaled up somewhat (on buildings mostly).

Agreed the Dutch should have a MOAR gold! flavor instead of happiness.

 

[Ahriman]

What's the problem with a bigger Great Person Rate on the Folkskola for Sweden?

I think that'd be ok. A farm bonus means they're going to want to use lots of farms, which means lots of food, which supports specialists.

And lastly, no comment on the Krepost = Dojo similarity?

Doesn't seem that similar. To me the Dojo is mostly about extra experience while the Krepost is mostly about more strategic resources.


I don't think we need 2 civs with river bonuses. If Egypt takes the river bonus, then India needs something else.

@Ahriman, because culture was scaled down, including in costs somewhat, 2 culture is probably pretty close to 2 culture.

Were culture costs for social policies really halved? Culture costs for tile expansion?

Agreed the Dutch should have a MOAR gold! flavor instead of happiness.

Double or triple the open borders bonus?

 

[mystikx21]

Culture costs for tile expansion were reduced by almost half yes.

I don't think social policies were halved, but the exponents/divisor were reduced so it should be somewhat cheaper as they go up in cost. That was balanced somewhat by broadcast towers going up to 50% instead of 33% so it should be approaching half costs by the late-game, but it's still somewhat expensive earlier.

Dojo didn't add extra XP just extra culture to horse/iron in the last version. Does it go back to adding 20 XP say (that was once an option).

 

[Eiger2112]

The "adjacent to city" effect for improvements would fit well for America, too!

"Suburb"

Brilliant, Tomice.


And I mentioned this buried in a wall-of-text post, but since you're discussing Rome's city conquest bonus I thought it bore repeating: The obvious bonus Rome got from much of their conquests was slaves. Each city they conquer should increase the Capital's pop by one, as well as any tech or cultural bonuses. This would offset any loss of advantage from keeping up with techs.

Cheers, Eiger