Learning Emperor

[quill18]

Final thoughts: Between being financial (which really helps on the coast) and two potential city sites with gold (and one with gems), I think that we'll have decent enough funds to grow a fairly sizeable early empire. Having the nearby islands should really give us the option to grow larger than the AI civs (barring military conquest). I know that the AI gets a huge edge on research and such on Emperor, but is it possible that we can leverage this to access some key military techs for a mid-game territory grab?

Maybe I'm too aggressive...

 

[ifinnem]

This brings me to my weaknesses:
#1 - I underuse specialists.
#2 - I'm not great at all types of city specialization. This often leaves me without a GP far. See #1.
#3 - I've never made much use of espionage. If you have suggestions here, I'd love to hear it.
#4 - I'm weak at diplomacy. This is probably going to be the biggest hole in my Emperor game. I need to figure out how to make a few really good friends. I also need to improve my tech brokering and resource trading too.

I love Willlem BTW - a moai statue in every coastal city - whats not to like

Some early thoughts
In light of 4 above you should solicit input from the forum on who you plan to cultivate as friends/trading partners. Monty you don't wanna piss off but if he is not directly bordering you not so serious. Demands are gonna come sooner or later
I would consider a Barracks not a library in Utrecht as keeping your power rating up is critical - lib can come later if border pressure an issue
Exploring across the desert to the E is crucial ASAP -
Make sure you build plenty of workers with your awesome Amsterdam pump - recc 2 per city up front (as originally suggested by Snaaty's strategy)
Aesthetics is a good tech that AIs deprioritize but you can trade with (after alphabet?)
Not sure your usual approach to religion but I recommend holding off adopting any for a while unless the whole continent goes one way

 

[pigswill]

Might be worth thinking about a library in Amsterdam (half price for creative of course); you could work 2 clams and plains hill for 10F, 5H, 15C; run 2 scientists for additional 6C and GS in 25 turns(epic). Probably use GS for academy in Amsterdam. 5 hammers gives you 2 archers in 15 turns.

Edit: Utrecht's location may give you early border tensions with Liz so might need to consider some appeasement there. Can't load the save coz of Hof mod but from your posts it looks like you've got decent locations for 2 more cities; northen goldgempig and south east fishgoldcow. You'll need IW to make northern city viable by the looks of it. That's probably as many as you can afford pre currency/CoL and chances are you'll be hemmed in by then anyway.
Maybe use Utrecht as your worker/settler pump once it maxes out.

 

[Sjaramei]

Tough start, but building warriors that late isn't a waste.

-They are cheaper
-They fogbust just as well as archers, so just keep them alive

2 warriors along the way to the 2nd city site before the settler pops should have been possible.

The whipping in the capital for a 2nd archer was a rushed decision, I've never been invaded (unless it's an uprising) before 2000 BC. (it was tougher in warlords, barbs would enter a lot sooner then) The archer should have been whipped only if it entered your borders.

But the game isn't lost even though you got a late start, keep settling a few more cities, and get Construction and Iron Working, if you can get some metal and catapults before the AI's get longbows your expansion through AI's should go smooth

 

[BurN]

Lolz barbs giving you a hard time eh. I agree with sjar that the archer whip wasn't needed. Barbs shouldn't enter your borders unprovoked yet.

I would build a warrior for your capital. Because it's cheap, it keeps your pop happy and you can free the archer that's defending it and use it for a better purpose. Most of the time my early cities are just guarded by a warrior. It's your border defense that matters, a barb shouldn't be able to reach your cities. Doesn't seem like you have much land to the west, some well placed fogbusters will make it much easier. You can lead with an archer in case a barb pops and let a warrior take over just to fogbust, etc ..

It's hard for me to decide on tech since I don't know the bts tech tree. There's 3 ai's so with some luck you can trade writing to backfill on some cheaper techs.
Try to research some techs that the ai doesn't prioritize too much. (in vanilla I try to go writing->alph->lit->col asap, since I can get all those before the ai does hence its good for trading. And ofcourse for the gl.)
It would be nice if you could get iw trough some trades. Sailing aswell, you wouldn't want those clams to get wacked by a barb galley.

You might want to get a lib in your capital in between building other stuff you need. It's a nice boost for breakers and you could run a scientist or two. Might be nice if you could find out whats near the east desert, maybe you can pull off a coastal city there if there's any food available.

I wouldn't worry too much about scores, it means nothing. Unless some ai has triple your score ofcourse. I've had plenty of games where I was ranked last eventhough I was outteching the topscore ai's easily.
I think you got a nice capital considering your leader/traits, good commerce with some pretty good hammer output.
After some tech trades and revealing whats n/e of you, you should be able to get a well running empire pretty fast.

For diplo there's nothing much to be said yet. We don't know where monty/khan is. And who's the yellow dude? I can't read the name on those screenshots. We'll see what the future brings us and will depend on what your plans are.
If you want to just build up your empire peacefully for a while, liz will probably build you in so it would be nice to be on good terms with her. If you want to war, wouldn't it be awesome if khan and monty would be a different religion then liz? xD
Eventhough many people dislike monty, I love him since he doesn't need much to be bribed into wars if you get him on somewhat on good terms with you.

Anyways good luck on the next session.

ps/edit: If I'd knew you'd be whipping that much, pottery might not have been so bad after all.

 

[lilnev]

Well I get by with just warriors almost all the time. The hammers you spent on a barracks + 2 archers, I would've used for 7 warriors. That's a lot of busted fog. You'll lose a few of them to barb archers, but with a little practice it's very managable.

On whipping, in general the goal is to work as many of your best tiles as possible. So you should space your whips 15 turns apart to only have one unhappiness, and spend most of your time at that (lowered) happy-cap. "Extra" food, that would grow you into unhappiness, should be funneled into workers/settlers. Save the whip for things that can't be built with food (whipping out the settler to grab a spot before it disappears is the exception), and try to whip 2 pop at a time to get the most bang for your unhappiness buck.

Cities: I would plan on NE of the western Rice, and put Moai Statues there. Note that a city on desert will carry irrigation to the Rice once you have CS. And probably SW of the Gems, as a production or hybrid city. Settle east first though, until the open land there runs out.

peace,
lilnev

 

[Bleys]

. . . used for 7 warriors. That's a lot of busted fog. You'll lose a few of them to barb archers, but with a little practice it's very managable.

One of the biggest downsides I have discovered on higher levels is that the more land I carve out for myself, the more fogbusting I need or the barbs will just own you. They are annoying too, making cities 2 tiles from a scout on a hill, whatever.

I usually dont mind the cities though, other than the occasional wave of axemen that tend to just show up. They actually put their cities on decent tiles, so I let them grow a bit until I can suck up the increased maintenance that comes from more cities. I especially like finding established barb cities in the other civ's territory.

 

[quill18]

I've never been invaded (unless it's an uprising) before 2000 BC. (it was tougher in warlords, barbs would enter a lot sooner then) The archer should have been whipped only if it entered your borders.

The archer DID turn back. I had no idea that barbs had a period between appearing and attacking within borders...

How the hell did I get through Monarch? The things I don't know could fill a book.

 

[quill18]

Might be worth thinking about a library in Amsterdam (half price for creative of course)

I *am* a noob. When did Libraries get added to the Creative trait's list? I thought just Colosseum/Theater -- which matches up with the out-of-date info I find online. This leads me to think that it was a BTS change that slipped my attention.

...I need to re-read the traits, I think...

 

[quill18]

I'm picking this up rather late in the evening. With the added time required for the write-up, I might not get very far --- and yet I suspect that I will nonetheless provide many opportunities for feedback.

BurN: Yellow dude is Charlemagne, new in BTS. I'd describe him as a...saner Isabella? Seems to do pretty well, as AI's go.

Turn 94 - 1650 BC

This is where we left off. In Utrecht, I was really unsure about the Library build, which is part of the reason that I ended my turnset before putting any hammers toward it. Barracks are certainly due to go here at some point, since it's production rich -- and the comments from ifinnem about the power graph have me intrigued.

I always thought that power was based on units and, I assuemd, how advanced they were. I only just recently learned that certain techs provide boosts to your power on their own. Do barracks also add to your power? Anything else?

Anyway, since I'll want one in Utrecht at some point anyway, and power rating WOULD be appreciated, I switch the build to a barracks.

Also, the comments from everyone about warriors have made me realize that I'm undervaluing them. If nothing else, I should be building two -- one to garrison Amsterdam and one to fogbust the north. This will free up two archers for more forward fogbusting.

As far as Libraries go, they cost 135H. I've discovered that whipping gives me 45H (again, this is all on epic). Now...since I'm creative I should be doubling my hammers...does that include the whipped ones? I'm sure I've read on these forums that it does, but I've never paid attention.

So...here's what I'm thinking. Try to get as close to 44/135 hammers banked towards the Library and then whip with two pop. That should overflow 89 hammers...basically giving me a second double-whip for free.

Does this work? Hm...only one way to find out. Worst thing that can happen is that my overflow is not doubled...but it's not like the hammers are going to be wasted.

In any case, Amsterdam is at full happiness and will quickly grow past the happy cap, so whipping is going to be in order anyway.

Turn 95 - 1625 BC

Stonehenge is built by an AI. These are things I need to start tracking for the future. Earliest and Average construction date of wonders (at various game speeds and difficulties). Anyone know if these spreadsheets exist? If not, I can certainly run some simulations...

I'm starting to semi-escort my 2nd worker to Utrecht. I'm not going to have him walk with an archer all the way, but I want him to be able to retreat if needed. Man, I am *paranoid* now...

Now this is interesting:

I know that my resolution makes it impossible to read the text, but Elizabeth's northmost archer (to the east of Utrecht) is escorting a settler. I'm wondering if she has a better spot to the north picked out, or if we snagged this location out from under her?

Turn 97 - 1575 BC

A warrior completes with 4H overflow. If I queue a Library, this overflow gets doubled.

This leads me to think that the overflow FROM a Library would not be doubled. Otherwise...one could go Library -> Theater and quadruple their hammers.

So...if I want to double my whip hammers, I'd actually have to whip the thing BEFORE the Library.

Is min-maxing the hammers worth it? Let's see...

*Hypothetical*

Let's use a Settler, and we've accumulated 103/149 hammers. This leaves 46 hammers to go, requiring two whips to rush, right?

QUESTION: Or would it count my current turns production against the amount, changing the whip requirement? I don't expect that it will, so let's continue...

So I whip two people, producing 90 hammers and overflowing 44, plus that turn's production (18, I think) for a grand total of 62 hammers. These double to 124 when I start a Library --- 11 short of its total cost.

Man, I hope this all works like I hope it does. I feel like I've just discovered something very cool without needing anyone to point it out to me.

Anyway, I'm building a warrior for now...

The warrior that completed this turn is replacing Amsterdam's Garrison.

Turn 98 - 1550 BC

Warrior completes. Amsterdam is turned 5 in sync with the last whip disappearing. I think the best timing for things would be to start the settler when I have about 39 food saved up. Then I can whip my city to Size 3 and have it grow to Size 4 (the cap with one whip unhappiness) the next turn. Is this level of micro-management a win, or is it pretty trivial? I doubt that I'd ever do it offline...I don't think I'm patient enough.

Anyway, at the current rate of 6F surplus, I'll probably want to start a settler in six turns, which is enough for 2 and 2/3 of a warrior.

I'm not certain if another settler so quickly is *truly* the right plan, but if there's another good city spot maybe north of the eastern desert, I'd like it.

Hey, it's occured to me (I'm slow) that if I really want to abuse the hammer count, I should see if I can time a chop to complete on the one-turn window (two turns, actually, since the last turn of the Settler would be okay too, for more overflow). Chopping is another thing I need to learn to balance. I tend to be pretty light with chopping (as a contrast to whipping...), but I'm doing it pretty liberally here. I have 5 forests left in my fat cross. I think I'll chop one for the Library though. If this all works, it'll be very very nice.

Looks like chopping will take five turns (starting next turn). I'm terrible with being off-by-one all the time with stuff like this, but I think that lines up in an encouraging way.

Oh, and sure enough there's a barb archer between my worker and Utrecht. I'll have to taunt them into attacking my archer on the gold hill...

Turn 101 - 1475 BC

I'm the 7th most advanced civ. Charlie is #1, then in unknown, unknown, Kublai Khan, Elizabeth, and then Monty.

I'm still doing a dance with two of my archers and the barb units, with one dead barb warrior to show for it. My worker will get there soon...

Yeah, spammed warriors for fogbusting would have been nice.

IBT, I get my first diplomatic choice. Charlemagne wants me to cancel OB with the Aztecs. I'm at +1 with each of them (years of peace), and they are +1 to each other as well. However, while they are Pleased with me, they are Annoyed with each other.

Charlie, we know, is the tech leader. He's also leading the power charts, with Monty and Kublai tied for second. Unfortunately, my poor scouting has not revealed where either of these two are (and I suspect that Charlie may be further away), but neither are direct neighbours at this time.

Anyway, I'm going to say yes to Charlie because he's in the strongest position right now and he CAN be a military beast. Obviously Monty can be too, but Charlie is easier to deal with -- so it would be really nice to be able to swing him at the other AIs on my behalf...

Anyway, I'm now at a net +0 with Monty, though he's only yet Cautious with me. Charlie is also +0 with him now for negotiating a trade embargo.

Turn 103 - 1425 BC

My archer successfully defends against a barb archer and opens up the map a bit to find a cow:

ARG! I hate my inability to understand what the "Turns Left" indicators really mean...

Anyway, I messed up and the hammers from it are coming in this turn and there's no way for me to force them into the overflow of the settler. Oh well, it was still a neat idea.

Anyway...now I just need to try to min-max things to arrive as close to 103 settler hammers without going over. It's like the price is right.

Turn 107 - 1325 BC

Oracle is built by the AI.

I'm currently at 90/149 hammers and producing 15/turn. I swap a 1F3H tile for an unimproved clam to hit 103 hammers exactly (and score 3C). Boy, I'll be embarrassed if this is all for nothing, but I'll have learned something big either way...

Turn 108 - 1300 BC

I lose a Woodsman I Warrior who was in a forest to an attacking barb Warrior. Seriously? What the hell? The barbs don't get a combat bonus on emp do they?

I check Amsterdam. It has 103 hammers stored and can whip two people.

I whip and get 193/149 hammers, for a surplus of 44. Now, the total production this turn is 11 hammers, with 9 coming from food. It will be interesting to see if that overflows properly.

Turn 109 - 1275 BC

Alright, so all of you were probably tearing your hair out for me to stop fretting about it. Yes, I got 55 overflow from the settler (44+11). Yes, it's all being doubled.

Oh, and the 30 food I had saved up, plus the 9 surplus I'm making this turn is enough to grow at the end of this turn. I'm not sure why I thought I should save up 36...I'm happy I didn't.

Anyway, with the lose of my woodsman warrior, I failed to learn much more about the northern coast (an archer is on his way though), so the best settling spot currently is still just east of Amsterdam -- at least resource-wise. In terms of strategic placement the far-eastern cows are likely to be at risk from the AI. I suspect that I should move my settler in that direction even before an actual location can be decided on.

Amsterdam:

Utrecht:

And that's the end of play for me tonight.

 

[quill18]

The Save.

Playing this publicly is making each mistake quite memorable to me... I may end up getting flattened by the AI, but I've already learned more in these 109 turns that I have in my last 10 games.

 

[ifinnem]

I always thought that power was based on units and, I assuemd, how advanced they were. I only just recently learned that certain techs provide boosts to your power on their own. Do barracks also add to your power? Anything else?

Check out this thread for info on what makes up power (and other demographics) http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=163098
In short buildings, population, units and techs all play a role
e.g. barracks are worth 4 warriors or 2 axemen

I think you need to see if you can snag another city NE of Utecht before you get boxed in by the AI. After that the 1SW of the gold mine, 1SE of the pigs and then near the rice W of Amsterdam (either on the desert 1E or maybe on the nearby island) are the remaining city locations

Other priority is to scout thru Liz's terriorty and find where the AIs are

 

[quill18]

Check out this thread for info on what makes up power (and other demographics) http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=163098
In short buildings, population, units and techs all play a role
e.g. barracks are worth 4 warriors or 2 axemen

I think you need to see if you can snag another city NE of Utecht before you get boxed in by the AI. After that the 1SW of the gold mine, 1SE of the pigs and then near the rice W of Amsterdam (either on the desert 1E or maybe on the nearby island) are the remaining city locations

Other priority is to scout thru Liz's terriorty and find where the AIs are

Awesome link, very informative. Might be worth noting that in BTS barracks are worth 3000, Warriors 1000, and Axemen 3000 -- so a little less "power"ful.

I agree with you on the priorities -- I'll be moving my settler to the NE while its still being scouted out. There's bound to be a good spot. NE or NNE of the cows is likely to be acceptable even if nothing else is. Meanwhile, I have a warrior just a few turns from Hastings (the newest English city, east of Utrecht) ready to start scouting through the AI territory, with more on the way. The fact that there really shouldn't be many barbs in the AI territories really makes yet another case for spamming out warriors...

What do you guys think of Scouts? I'm quite fond of them on the lower difficulties, normally building one or two if I have Hunting early. Should I build one with the intention of staying in the barb-free AI lands? They don't add to power and can't be used for defense if something goes wrong though...

 

[BurN]

Well after the fogbust to the west, it seems you can stop worrying too much about barbs. Only way they can come now is from the NE part. (and maybe an attack on your clams later on ;p)

There's an option of settling near the cows for your next city indeed, after a bit more scouting. It's going to cut a gap in your economy though. As said I'm not too familiar with such long distance expansion of bts. But it would give you at least 6 nice cities after backfilling your land.

You might want to run a scientist or two in your capital soonish. The next city you settle will make your science slider drop again.
I'm not really into calculating stuff but I "think" if you let your capital grow to five, the best way to work your tiles is 3 clams/plain hill/grass hill? It would give you some extra commerce, so you could use another workboat. edit: Unless you want to keep whipping ofcourse.

After border pop of utrecht, you might want to switch to that oasis tile. 3f/3c is pretty nice, together with a farm and a mine your future settlers/workers can come from there. And you have the possibility of chopping/mining those two plain hills so they produce 1C as well later.

ifin: I don't think NE of utrecht is possible since the ai already put a city there. Well it is possible, but there's no resources/land to work. I don't think that's a good idea.


ps: You still got a forest you can chop in your capital. SE, just outside your fat cross. It serves no use, might want to chop it down some day. ^^

 

[Zanttu]

ARG! I hate my inability to understand what the "Turns Left" indicators really mean...

This one is pretty tricky. The "turns left" indicator means how many turns worker has to work on chopping. Now, if the indicator shows 1 turn left, you need to check if the worker has worked on this turn already. If he hasn't, he will finish the chop during this turn. If he already has worked (can't move anymore) on this turn, he will finish the chop next turn. Got it? Because automated units (always?) move after everything else has been moved, you need to have at least one unit without orders if you want to stop the chopping on the last turn. (So for instance instead of moving your exploring warrior, first stop the chop.)

 

[Sjaramei]

Settle for the gold, happy and lots of commerce for your research

Since you beelined alphabet hopefully some AI's have Iron Working you can trade to get. You need to get some metal online quick, ( but maybe i'm too paranoid I play Agg AI ) if I don't have metal hooked up around 1000bc, sometimes i get a visit from a stack of swords and axes.

(since you kinda pissed off Monty i wouldn't be too surprised if he wants to pay you a visit if he feels you are weak )

 

[quill18]

You might want to run a scientist or two in your capital soonish. The next city you settle will make your science slider drop again.

I'm not really into calculating stuff but I "think" if you let your capital grow to five, the best way to work your tiles is 3 clams/plain hill/grass hill? It would give you some extra commerce, so you could use another workboat. edit: Unless you want to keep whipping ofcourse.

Honestly, my neurotic need to avoid waste is what initially balked at your suggestion, but I think I found some genuine critique. Basically you're setting up a commerce/production hybrid (10C 8H including the city tile + lots of trashed food).

If a hybrid is called for, surely 2x Clams, Plains, 2x Scientist would be better at 7C, 6Beaker, 5H? You're trading 3C from a clam for 3Beakers+GP points, which surely must be better? And if we're assuming that we're not in a hurry to produce something, surely 3Beakers+GPP are better than 3H from a grass mine?

Even 2xClams,1xPlains,1xGrass,1xScientist would be better than using all three clams, no?

And when we want something built, surely Wheat, Plains, 3x Grass (16H, 1C) would be worth sacrificing the clam commerce for a few turns?

ps: You still got a forest you can chop in your capital. SE, just outside your fat cross. It serves no use, might want to chop it down some day. ^^

So you agree that I should leave the 4 forests still in my fat cross alone for +Health and future lumber mills?

 

[Priah]

Im not sure if anyone has pointed this out yet or not, but your capitol is begging to be a gp farm. 3 clams and an irrigated wheat with 3 hills and lakes around? At least right now with a creative leader, you want to build a library in it asap and start running two scientists almost immediatly after founding your second city (which should be on the planes trees so that it gets all the hills and the gold + gems.

That city should start out as a production city, you can get all four hills and the gold with the pig at pop 6 (pefect happiness with gems + gold for early on). That would give you 14 production with like 12 or so commerce from the gems and gold, pretty damn good for ancient era.

 

[Jet]

After IW and Sailing, you might research Metal Casting and try to build the Colossus. Amsterdam has very high production between mines and the whip. You have two luxury metals, Financial, Dikes later, coastal cities now, and probably island cities before long. With 4 known AIs, you might reasonably do without Astronomy for a long time.

 

[quill18]

Im not sure if anyone has pointed this out yet or not, but your capitol is begging to be a gp farm. 3 clams and an irrigated wheat with 3 hills and lakes around? At least right now with a creative leader, you want to build a library in it asap and start running two scientists almost immediatly after founding your second city (which should be on the planes trees so that it gets all the hills and the gold + gems.

That city should start out as a production city, you can get all four hills and the gold with the pig at pop 6 (pefect happiness with gems + gold for early on). That would give you 14 production with like 12 or so commerce from the gems and gold, pretty damn good for ancient era.

The city would be in starvation though:

2F from City
5F pigs
4F from 4 grass hills
= 11F

Unless I'm missing something. Of course, with a Granary that doesn't really matter I think, though the question of how to most efficiently grow is out there...

At Size 5, I could break-even with Pigs, Gold, 3x Grass Hills. I'd have to work a Grassland (with a cottage until CS?) instead of...the gold? A Grass Hill?

And what about when the city is smaller -- how quickly to grow vs. wanting to work the gold?