Terrance888
Discord Reigns
Wow.... I know more and I still cn't win at settler!
Learning Emperor
- Thread starter quill18
- Start date
quill18
Warlord
A tight deadline at work has prevented me from playing ANY games, let alone this campaign. I will return soon, however.
futurehermit
Deity
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2006
- Messages
- 5,724
I know blocking off the AI is important, but I don't understand the first city placement. You give yourself a hard time with maintenance bills and overlook the two gold cities. I know one requires IW for the pig.
Anyways, here is my .02$:
I would've settled the fish/gold city first and used the super-powered research to tech IW to settle the pig/gold/gems city asap (with other cities being settled before if possible). With 2 gold and 1 gems it wouldn't be hard to tech through construction or whatever you need to go to war with Lizzy if necessary.
Basically, I would've expanded peacefully as much as possible using the gold/gold/gems to cover costs and power research while having probably the 2 best production sites preparing for war against Lizzy when the land runs out. The capital would at some point generate 2 GSs--1 for an academy and 1 for philosophy.
Anyways, take it for what it's worth, I'm looking forward to how this game plays out.
Anyways, here is my .02$:
I would've settled the fish/gold city first and used the super-powered research to tech IW to settle the pig/gold/gems city asap (with other cities being settled before if possible). With 2 gold and 1 gems it wouldn't be hard to tech through construction or whatever you need to go to war with Lizzy if necessary.
Basically, I would've expanded peacefully as much as possible using the gold/gold/gems to cover costs and power research while having probably the 2 best production sites preparing for war against Lizzy when the land runs out. The capital would at some point generate 2 GSs--1 for an academy and 1 for philosophy.
Anyways, take it for what it's worth, I'm looking forward to how this game plays out.
quill18
Warlord
I still think that my 2nd city (1st settler) placement was good. It's not about blocking off the AI (they still have plenty of room to expand and I'm not denying them a strategic resource.) It's about stopping myself from getting stuck with just 3 good cities.
My 2nd settler is currently also moving to a forward position to secure more land...but I do concede that it may be stronger to start working gold at this point. Still, I think that the current plan is still good, and here's why:
Amsterdam is a pretty strong early commercial city since the clams are worth 3C each as Financial. I think it can float our commerce/research (especially if I make two scientists shortly) enough to support our more production- and territory-focused settling. I don't think there's any doubt that if City 3 is land-grab, then 4 and 5 definitely have to claim the two golds rather than push forward more -- and sooner rather than later. Their income should more than offset the increased maintenance cost.
On the other hand, it will take several turns to build the required infractructure, especially since we don't even have pottery yet. I expect some pretty low % research for a few years. In the end I think our GDP will exceed the AI's, but at what delay?
As an aside, since I DO think we'll fall far behind on beakers soon, I don't think I'll hesitate to trade Alphabet earlier rather than later (I typically hoard it, of course). I just don't expect us to have very many tech monopolies to barter with anytime soon and would rather just catch up to the AI immediately and then focus on developing our pretty sweet city spots.
After backfilling our territory and buffing our economy, what's the direction to take?
If we don't have Iron, then I think that cultivating a strong relationship with Liz is going to be important while we focus on colonizing a few island spots ahead of the AI. Again, Financial should help us maintain a slightly larger economy -- and also make coast tiles far more valuable.
Religiously, I'm hoping that someone (Charlemagne?) founds a religion to counter Monty's buddhism. If I can be god-buddies with Charlie and direct him against Monty, we'll be able to keep the heat away from us for a long time. (I figure that Liz can be managed easily enough with sufficient Power Rating.)
EDIT: If buhddism reaches us before any other neighbour founds a religion, do we convert? I don't think it will keep Monty away from us -- distance, power rating, and alternative enemies will need to provide the required disincentive. But we could use the happy boost. If someone founds a religion after the fact, I think I'll work hard to convert ASAP without being asked -- maybe even going to No State Religion if we can't get the religion spread to us.
But what if we do have Iron in our borders? (Question: When to research IW? I'm thinking that priorities for trade are Religious -> Monarchy and Ironworking -> Compass, while we research Wheel/Pottery.) Is it worth going after Liz with cats and swords? Can we do it before she gets Longbows (or Macemen)? I'm not sure how the time pressures work on Emperor. We'd need Construction, obviously -- and our economy will have to be built up before we get to that point.
futurehermit
Deity
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2006
- Messages
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You need IW to work that pig and that city has both gold and gems. In my mind that is just too good of a city to delay settling too long. I probably would've settled it first or second while beelining IW hoping to nab iron with a subsequent city. Then DoW on Liz if necessary. She's phil/fin and her UU doesn't come til later so she's vulnerable early. I feel like the longer you leave her, the stronger she gets.
quill18
Warlord
And...we're back.
First things first, I adjust my resolution... The things I do for you people!
I also discovered the ALT-S shortcut for making signs and decided to get a bit goofy...
Anyway, let's see what we can do with this mess.
Turn 112 - 1200 BC
A couple more turns go by and the Library completes in Amsterdam. I'm going to wait for the
unhappiness to disappear, but then I'll assign two scientists.
Turn 114 - 1150 BC
Meanwhile, in the northeast:
Well, damn... Copper and more Gems! Definitely at least two or three good city spots here -- though admittedly the ones closer to home should be pretty high priority. Still, it would be nice to secure a little slice of this for me -- I might be able to come back and get City #6 around here too, later.
But where to settle? I like the idea of settling south of the bananas to be on a river and grab the gems, dyes, plus a couple hills (and looks like one more north of the bananas). Or do we snatch the copper, potentially denying Liz of the resource while also buffing our military? Say...2N of the copper to get the cows, wheat, and dyes. We wouldn't be on a river, but we could still farm plenty. 2 of our hills (plus the copper one) are crappy desert, but we'd still get 2 plains and 1 grass one.
Since the point of being at this end of the world is to stake out some territory, I think the copper placement is best. I'll just need one more turn to check out the English border to the east. I don't know if I want a cultural battle over the cows...
Turn 115 - 1125 BC
Arg...I'm such a sucker for the lower difficulty levels where you can afford to be ambivalent. I don't want to cancel my deals...but the English are my most likely target if I go to war. That might be years from now though, and I hate the idea of losing out on trade opportunities, especially with Alphabet near to completion.
Right now I'm at +2 with both parties, though that makes Khan Pleased with me (Liz is only Cautious). Additionally, I'm bound to get some hate from Liz from border tensions...
So that's the toss-up. Do I shut-out Liz from trades for a bit in exchange for better relations with AI #2? (Remember, I started courting Charlie as well.)
Damn it, why couldn't this have come the turn after Alphabet?
Okay fine, I accept.
---
Additional exploration reveals that the cows do fall into the fat cross of the English city in still hidden in the fog.
On the other hand, check this out:
Another sweet, sweet city site in the north -- though clearly crippled without Iron Working. Either 1N of the bananas, or somewhere to the northwest would be a great spot to grab the gems, or a city along the coast to the south -- which could also nab the cows.
Man, I have NO idea what these distances are going to coast in maintenance. Utrecht is costing me about 4 right now (half from distance).
I think I should pause here for a sanity check. I need to go out for an hour or two, but when I get back I'll found a city. Right now, I'm thinking 2N of the copper would be best. If I settle there, how much cultural warfare will be needed to keep controls of the cows? Should I build a Library right away? If the best the English can do is a Monument, I'll kick there butts just by being Creative. They don't have a religion, and they don't have OB with anyone -- so no libraries, I'm assuming.
BTW, the English city is probably SE of my "English" sign.
Note: That is a mongol Combat II Axeman in the last screenshot. As far as I know, the English don't have any Axemen.
First things first, I adjust my resolution... The things I do for you people!
I also discovered the ALT-S shortcut for making signs and decided to get a bit goofy...
Anyway, let's see what we can do with this mess.
Turn 112 - 1200 BC
A couple more turns go by and the Library completes in Amsterdam. I'm going to wait for the
unhappiness to disappear, but then I'll assign two scientists.Turn 114 - 1150 BC
Meanwhile, in the northeast:
Well, damn... Copper and more Gems! Definitely at least two or three good city spots here -- though admittedly the ones closer to home should be pretty high priority. Still, it would be nice to secure a little slice of this for me -- I might be able to come back and get City #6 around here too, later.
But where to settle? I like the idea of settling south of the bananas to be on a river and grab the gems, dyes, plus a couple hills (and looks like one more north of the bananas). Or do we snatch the copper, potentially denying Liz of the resource while also buffing our military? Say...2N of the copper to get the cows, wheat, and dyes. We wouldn't be on a river, but we could still farm plenty. 2 of our hills (plus the copper one) are crappy desert, but we'd still get 2 plains and 1 grass one.
Since the point of being at this end of the world is to stake out some territory, I think the copper placement is best. I'll just need one more turn to check out the English border to the east. I don't know if I want a cultural battle over the cows...
Turn 115 - 1125 BC
Arg...I'm such a sucker for the lower difficulty levels where you can afford to be ambivalent. I don't want to cancel my deals...but the English are my most likely target if I go to war. That might be years from now though, and I hate the idea of losing out on trade opportunities, especially with Alphabet near to completion.
Right now I'm at +2 with both parties, though that makes Khan Pleased with me (Liz is only Cautious). Additionally, I'm bound to get some hate from Liz from border tensions...
So that's the toss-up. Do I shut-out Liz from trades for a bit in exchange for better relations with AI #2? (Remember, I started courting Charlie as well.)
Damn it, why couldn't this have come the turn after Alphabet?
Okay fine, I accept.
---
Additional exploration reveals that the cows do fall into the fat cross of the English city in still hidden in the fog.
On the other hand, check this out:
Another sweet, sweet city site in the north -- though clearly crippled without Iron Working. Either 1N of the bananas, or somewhere to the northwest would be a great spot to grab the gems, or a city along the coast to the south -- which could also nab the cows.
Man, I have NO idea what these distances are going to coast in maintenance. Utrecht is costing me about 4 right now (half from distance).
I think I should pause here for a sanity check. I need to go out for an hour or two, but when I get back I'll found a city. Right now, I'm thinking 2N of the copper would be best. If I settle there, how much cultural warfare will be needed to keep controls of the cows? Should I build a Library right away? If the best the English can do is a Monument, I'll kick there butts just by being Creative. They don't have a religion, and they don't have OB with anyone -- so no libraries, I'm assuming.
BTW, the English city is probably SE of my "English" sign.
Note: That is a mongol Combat II Axeman in the last screenshot. As far as I know, the English don't have any Axemen.
Sorry for my late response, I kinda lost track of this thread.
I'm not completely following what you're saying but it's nice to be able to switch around your worked tiles in the best possible way. So having a 3rd clam "might" be worth it.
For example if you would get another workboat for 3rd clams. Eventhough you might not want to work that 3rd clam right away, it would be nice if you for example need production for something. Be it units, settlers, workers, anything .. you just swap the scientists to those 3 clams + 2 hills so you don't lose too much breakers when doing so because you're getting more commerce.
In retrospect it's debatable if you should spend hammers on a workboat atm. If you have nothing better to build I would go for it. I always find it rather hard to have a good view on games I'm not playing myself.
In general yes I would try to run 2 scientist most of the time in your capital for now. Unless you need fast production for something. A GS would be nice, I never bulb anything so I'm not too familiar with the bulb paths. I would just wack an academy on amsterdam if I would get one.
edit: About the forests, I would certainly chop the one just outside your fat cross. I like to keep 2-4 forest in most cities. But if they have to be chopped .. just chop them.
It doesn't seem like you need to chop anything atm though, you got plenty of food/hammers. Maybe for quick worker/settler or keep them for GL if you plan on building it.Reading your update->
That's some nice land there and I think you can forget about barbs since there's close to no fog atm.
Settling is going to be a killer on research, did you bring a worker with that settler? It "might" be doable working that wheat and chopping a lib for 2 scientist to keep your research going.
I would love to give you solid advice on settling, but I am not familiar with aggressive settling since it's useless in vanilla. But I've seen it pulled of in various threads so I'd assume it's a valid strategy.
IF you settle so far, scientists will be your friends, somewhat keeping your teching afloat. Hell, you could build/chop a lib in utrecht if needed if your science rate is sinking too much. But I'd wait till some bts players give some input on that. And btw I think you might want to get/chop some more workers. (edit2: uttrecht got a forest NE of your fat cross, england will get it when it border pops. My advice would be to chop it asap. Or is it too late already? Uttrecht got some forest, I would put them to some good use. Maybe for workers or a lib.)
I'd guess if you can survive this phase and start backfilling those juicy looking city spots, all should be well. I would try to somewhat stay on the good side of the english. She's not a very aggressive ai but from what we see now, she's your only neighbour. You say she has no axes, so I highly doubt she'd try anything soon .. still I wouldn't risk too much till you got your empire on track.
Edit3: Oh god, I keep on editing.
I just want to make sure. I'm not saying you should hurt other relations just to keep liz happy. You're going to want to kill her sometime in the future anyways. Could you maybe take a screeny of the diplomatic situation atm? Who's annoyed towards who/who is pleased. It would be nice if we could spot some possible future alliances already. Even though there's only one religion, it can't hurt to take a look at it.
Jet
No, no, please. Please.
- Joined
- Mar 16, 2006
- Messages
- 2,431
I like the tile where the Settler is. Plains hill, fresh water, river, only one junk tile. You should be able to get the northern Copper or Iron.
Rather than hiring Scientists I'd keep Amsterdam on its food tiles to build Workers and Settlers, grabbing the crippled city and the eastern Gold city. Not sure if Kublai or someone might grab the crippled city before you.
Once you have Sailing, IW, Pottery, your economy should be all set between coast, river cottages, and luxury metal tiles, and maybe scientists.
Rather than hiring Scientists I'd keep Amsterdam on its food tiles to build Workers and Settlers, grabbing the crippled city and the eastern Gold city. Not sure if Kublai or someone might grab the crippled city before you.
Once you have Sailing, IW, Pottery, your economy should be all set between coast, river cottages, and luxury metal tiles, and maybe scientists.
quill18
Warlord
Sorry folks, wasn't able to complete my intended set of turns last night.
I very rarely bulb anything -- though we'll have to see what our tech situation is like in the coming turns. If I don't need more academies/whatever, I'm a big fan of settling the GPs. Hundreds of turns of bonus production/money/whatever really add up, as does the uber-city potential of settling many GPs in the same place.
I don't think there can be an "IF" at this point. I wasted enough turns scouting this area and moving a settler that I can't slow my game any more. It may turn out, in the end, that settling so aggressively was a mistake, but I think turning back would be a greater mistake at this point.
Everything, at this point, is going to have to focus on building workers and settlers. I mean, the settlers will obviously destroy the economy, but this aggressive settling will be wasted if I don't backfill. 2-4 extra workers will be needed to hook up the gold and gems ASAP and cottage appropriately to help the economy recover. Once the sites are built up, I should be rolling in GDP, but there will be a definite lull (or coma).
Good call. I don't believe Hastings has any culture yet, so I'll get to it. That's something I've never thought of doing before...very sneaky.
Will do tonight. From memory (and I think I'm right), we're +2 with Khan and Charlie and +0 with Liz and Monty. Khan is +0 with liz and +1 with the others. Charlie is +0 with Monty and +1 with the others.
Liz is currently #1 in score. She also has (at least) 4 cities.
I very rarely bulb anything -- though we'll have to see what our tech situation is like in the coming turns. If I don't need more academies/whatever, I'm a big fan of settling the GPs. Hundreds of turns of bonus production/money/whatever really add up, as does the uber-city potential of settling many GPs in the same place.
I don't think there can be an "IF" at this point. I wasted enough turns scouting this area and moving a settler that I can't slow my game any more. It may turn out, in the end, that settling so aggressively was a mistake, but I think turning back would be a greater mistake at this point.
Everything, at this point, is going to have to focus on building workers and settlers. I mean, the settlers will obviously destroy the economy, but this aggressive settling will be wasted if I don't backfill. 2-4 extra workers will be needed to hook up the gold and gems ASAP and cottage appropriately to help the economy recover. Once the sites are built up, I should be rolling in GDP, but there will be a definite lull (or coma).
Good call. I don't believe Hastings has any culture yet, so I'll get to it. That's something I've never thought of doing before...very sneaky.
Will do tonight. From memory (and I think I'm right), we're +2 with Khan and Charlie and +0 with Liz and Monty. Khan is +0 with liz and +1 with the others. Charlie is +0 with Monty and +1 with the others.
Liz is currently #1 in score. She also has (at least) 4 cities.
True it would be kind of a waste. Though I'm just as uncertain as you on settling, but I guess if jet thinks it's good .. it should be all right. xD
I'd agree on settling gold or gems pretty soon. The cities should pay for themselves with a mine. I think you got some nice land really, except that desert area ofcourse. A good capital and early happy resources nearby.
As for the chopping it's something I learned to do over time. Chopping is powerful so chop as much as you can. Especially if you can chop outside your cultural borders (or just outside fat cross), where you're sure you won't settle. Even better in this case, where you can chop a future english forest.
Looking at diplo, khan could be possible ally in the future. He doesn't like liz and he's positive with other civs, which could open a 3 way alliance later. Now it would be even better if khan/liz are neighbours. I like khan as an ally, not so much for tech trading but in some of my games he can wield a fearsome army and he's easy to bribe to war at pleased from my experience.
I think all in all this game looks promising at this point.
I like early scientists.
It's great when you can't keep up your science slider. When settling that city I'd guess he'll be at 40%, which is kinda marginal. Also the earlier you pop a gs, the better. +6sc/1h is quite a boost early game.I was thinking of uttrecht making his workers/settlers rather then amsterdam. It's a prod site but he doesn't have any military to build at this point, except the occasional archer maybe. Plenty of forests, he can build/chop the barracks till size 3 and start chopping/building workers-settlers.
IF he would make workers/settlers in amsterdam and not run scientists, I'd opt for another workboat really. Working 3clam/farm/hill would be nice in that case. A workboat shouldn't take long to make if he switches his tiles to those hills. And probably try to time it a bit so he can start making settler/worker on 4-5 pop. Unless he wants to keep whipping, then I guess he won't need the 3rd clam for a while.
And yes I agree once Sailing, IW and Pottery comes available (hopefully by trades), I foresee a well developing empire.
quill18
Warlord
Again, I'm away from my game right now but I feel like:
Amsterdam: Boat -> Worker -> Settler -> (assign specialists)
Utrecht: Worker -> Settler -> (more workers/archers?)
The actual builds may vary, but I'd like Amsterdam to pop the settler for Glittering Pigs since it'll be a far shorter walk. Of course I could just go straight into a settler and then into the scientists and rely on Utrecht to make the workers and such, but I like the idea of working 3 seafood to generate commerce at this point.
quill18
Warlord
Settling in place does make for a solid city site, though it fails to steal anything from the English and also doesn't get the gems.
If I settled in place, how do we specialize the city?
Production city:
Short-term: Wheat + 3 Mines + ___
Long-term: we add Watermills, Workshops, and some farms
Commerce City:
Wheat + Plains Hill Mine + Cottages
Can still mine and use the Grass Hills for production boosts for libraries, banks, etc... until the very late game where we turn them to windmills.
Utrecht is already tagged as a production city. Capitals often end up being a hybrid, and Amsterdam's sea tiles are bringing in $$$, but I think that most of the focus should be industrial. Cottages and Workshops are both possible on the flatland, but the excess food really makes Workshops attractive. There's still the question of the bare spot one tile west of Amsterdam. If we pop Iron there, Amsterdam will be a huge production site.
So 2 hammer sites so far means that we should get a commerce city up ASAP. I am a little concerned about the potential for our other prospective sites to be particularly productive, but even if they're not I think we'll be okay with Amsterdam and Utrecht.
futurehermit
Deity
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2006
- Messages
- 5,724
settling in place kind of leaves that copper resource on an island and also will create more overlap (which is not necessarily bad) with other cities you'll want to put up in that corner.
quill18
Warlord
And...we're off!
Now, I want to get away from being quite so "micro-managey" in my reports as we move away from the early phases. Also, I need to be in another game in an hour or so (I'm the raid leader for my WoW guild...), so I'm gonna try to make some fast progress without screwing up too much.
First order, I found a city where my settler was in the last screenshot -- something I had NOT planned when I took that picture.
It starts to produce a Worker, which I think is the single most important expense right now to improve my economy.
Turn 124 - 900 BC
Monty DoW on Liz! They're about even in power -- I'm hoping that Monty is repelled by the English but that they develop plenty of animosity.
Turn 125 - 875 BC
Charlie, who disliked Monty initially, is now Buddhist. I've checked the stats out on Charlie. His hate for people not of his religion can get as bad as Izzy's, but he is otherwise much more rational. Very militaristic though, so he needs to be watched.
The idea of Charlie and Monty forming a religious union is frightening... My biggest hope at this point it for Charlie to found Chrisitianity or Confuscionism and convert, else I will *need* to be a buddhist.
Great Lighthouse is built by the AI. (They LOVE this wonder, don't they?)
Turn 129 - 775 BC
Kublai Khan becomes a Hindu! I still don't know where that religion was founded. The diplomatic situation is getting quite hairy... I need to be ready for something to spread to me and pick a side, because I'll probably be asked to convert soon after...
Hopefully that happens only after I get my cities a little more defended...
Utrecht is done building a barracks (after being interrupted in favour of a worker). I'm going to toss in a Library build before any settlers as I need the culture push-back against England. Besides, I still don't have pottery...though it shouldn't be far.
Turn 133 - 675 BC
Pyramids are built and Charlie adopts Representation.
I'm also a bit concerned for Liz:
Turn 133 - 650 BC
Yay! Alphabet comes in!
Boo! Slave revolt in Amsterdam! This is a REALLY bad time...
First off, Liz still won't talk to me.
Second, trading with Khan is gonna piss of Charlie and Monty. Soooooo...I think I'm going to work on befriending the buddhist block for the moment (and hope that Monty forgets I closed trades with him a while ago).
What the heck...4/5 of Monty's techonologies are blocked.
I'd understand if he simply didn't like me enough but.......he's trying to hold a monopoly on these ancient things?
I go try Charlie first and trade him Writing for the Wheel and Mysticism.
Next I give Monty one of my 3 clams for free. I'm not sure how long it takes to get a +1, but I'll do what I can...
Between turns, Khan comes offering IW for Alphabet. Now, I was waiting a turn to see if Khan would get a -1 from my trading with Charlie. He doesn't, so I'm hoping that they just don't hate each other enough. (What is the treshhold?)
Anyway, he's getting +300 beakers out of the deal, but I really want IW. I don't think Khan will trade Alphabet right away, so I agree and prepare to dump Alphabet to the other AIs quickly.
Turn 135 - 625 BC
The slave revolt in Amsterdam sends my economy to the ground and puts my workers on strike........
BLAH!!
I do Writing for Pottery to Monty.
Alphabet to Charlie for Med, Poly, and Masonry.
And after all that time...
Iron is in Amsterdam!
Turn 136 - 600 BC
The strike is lifted, I've lost a Warrior. Could be worse.
Now to get some cottages down...
I trade Polytheism and Meditation to Khan for Sailing.
A few turns later, Monty demands Polytheism. Okie dokie buddy, whatever you want.
And then this:
3-5 improvements and 1-2 buildings destroyed in her CAPITAL? Wow, nasty. Yeah, it might spoil our relations a bit, but she's busy with Monty...and I have Iron now.
Okay, who am I kidding...I'm just incredibly entertained by this event and I want to go for it.
I got 4 improvements, 2 buildings, and suffered the relationship hit.
Turn 145 - 425 BC
Liz is at -3 Annoyed with us...but wants Open Borders? I'm not sure if this is a strong diplomatic move overall....but she's the only one I can have trade routes with, and I'd like to explore her territory...so I agree.
Two turns later, Charlie DoW on Liz too...
Her power rating is still equal to both Monty and Charlie...but surely this can't last!
Turn 151 - 335 BC
Liz converts to Buddhism...how wonder what that will do to the war? Regardless, I need to get myself a piece of that religion lovin' soon.
Turn 152 - 305 BC
*cough* Apparently not enough. Monty would like my assistance against Liz!
While our relations might be recoverable under Buddha, Liz currently dislikes me and is very weakened. I have a decent number of archers in my border cities... I'm more worried about pillaging than anything, but I'm probably pretty safe. My biggest worry at the moment is losing the 2g worth of trade routes with England!!!
Now that I have Sailing I'm building a work boat in Amsterdam simply to find more AI civs to trade with...
Anyway, I think I need to accept this. I really want to buff my diplo vs. Monty so that he stays focused on England or Mongolia...
The English DO have axemen now.
Turn 161 - 185 BC
A gold and a river/dye/cottage come online on the same turn. I can finally raise my science rate from 0% to 30%.
Turn 166 - 110 BC
Charlie and Liz make peace. Liz still wants UTRECHT from me for peace!!!
I'm going to do a little pillaging. I don't know if that'll make much of a difference, but it hurts her and helps me.
Turn 170 - 50 BC
Now a hurricane in Amsterdam destroys the Granary. Wow, I can't catch a break this game.
Oh hey, we meet the Khmer! He found us with a work boat.
And Liz approaches Utrecht with an Axeman and a Swordman. I have 3 Archers and a Warrior defending, an axe arriving shortly, and an axe being built next turn. Should be okay, and might allow me to sue for a peace treaty.
She ends up attacking across a river and loses her Axe and killing an archer. My axeman mops up the damaged sword.
She still wants Utrecht. I notice that Monty is doing POORLY in score and has fallen behind in Power to Liz. Maybe I backed the wrong horse...
Turn 178 - 70 AD
Hey, why not a Barbarian uprising near Utrecht? Sure, 4 Axemen sound like fun!
WTH?
Let's review:
- Slave revolt
- Hurricane
- Barbarian uprising
That's three TERRIBLY PAINFUL negative events in 50 turns. Plus, let's not forget the Insane Random Number Generator Barbarians (IRNGBs) at the start of the game that wasted a couple dozen turns worth of units.
Anyway, I've already played longer than intended. I need to go -- may play some more turns later tonight...
Now, I want to get away from being quite so "micro-managey" in my reports as we move away from the early phases. Also, I need to be in another game in an hour or so (I'm the raid leader for my WoW guild...), so I'm gonna try to make some fast progress without screwing up too much.
First order, I found a city where my settler was in the last screenshot -- something I had NOT planned when I took that picture.
It starts to produce a Worker, which I think is the single most important expense right now to improve my economy.
Turn 124 - 900 BC
Monty DoW on Liz! They're about even in power -- I'm hoping that Monty is repelled by the English but that they develop plenty of animosity.
Turn 125 - 875 BC
Charlie, who disliked Monty initially, is now Buddhist. I've checked the stats out on Charlie. His hate for people not of his religion can get as bad as Izzy's, but he is otherwise much more rational. Very militaristic though, so he needs to be watched.
The idea of Charlie and Monty forming a religious union is frightening... My biggest hope at this point it for Charlie to found Chrisitianity or Confuscionism and convert, else I will *need* to be a buddhist.
Great Lighthouse is built by the AI. (They LOVE this wonder, don't they?)
Turn 129 - 775 BC
Kublai Khan becomes a Hindu! I still don't know where that religion was founded. The diplomatic situation is getting quite hairy... I need to be ready for something to spread to me and pick a side, because I'll probably be asked to convert soon after...
Hopefully that happens only after I get my cities a little more defended...
Utrecht is done building a barracks (after being interrupted in favour of a worker). I'm going to toss in a Library build before any settlers as I need the culture push-back against England. Besides, I still don't have pottery...though it shouldn't be far.
Turn 133 - 675 BC
Pyramids are built and Charlie adopts Representation.
I'm also a bit concerned for Liz:
Turn 133 - 650 BC
Yay! Alphabet comes in!
Boo! Slave revolt in Amsterdam! This is a REALLY bad time...
First off, Liz still won't talk to me.
Second, trading with Khan is gonna piss of Charlie and Monty. Soooooo...I think I'm going to work on befriending the buddhist block for the moment (and hope that Monty forgets I closed trades with him a while ago).
What the heck...4/5 of Monty's techonologies are blocked.
I'd understand if he simply didn't like me enough but.......he's trying to hold a monopoly on these ancient things?
I go try Charlie first and trade him Writing for the Wheel and Mysticism.
Next I give Monty one of my 3 clams for free. I'm not sure how long it takes to get a +1, but I'll do what I can...
Between turns, Khan comes offering IW for Alphabet. Now, I was waiting a turn to see if Khan would get a -1 from my trading with Charlie. He doesn't, so I'm hoping that they just don't hate each other enough. (What is the treshhold?)
Anyway, he's getting +300 beakers out of the deal, but I really want IW. I don't think Khan will trade Alphabet right away, so I agree and prepare to dump Alphabet to the other AIs quickly.
Turn 135 - 625 BC
The slave revolt in Amsterdam sends my economy to the ground and puts my workers on strike........
BLAH!!
I do Writing for Pottery to Monty.
Alphabet to Charlie for Med, Poly, and Masonry.
And after all that time...
Iron is in Amsterdam!
Turn 136 - 600 BC
The strike is lifted, I've lost a Warrior. Could be worse.
Now to get some cottages down...
I trade Polytheism and Meditation to Khan for Sailing.
A few turns later, Monty demands Polytheism. Okie dokie buddy, whatever you want.
And then this:
3-5 improvements and 1-2 buildings destroyed in her CAPITAL? Wow, nasty. Yeah, it might spoil our relations a bit, but she's busy with Monty...and I have Iron now.
Okay, who am I kidding...I'm just incredibly entertained by this event and I want to go for it.
I got 4 improvements, 2 buildings, and suffered the relationship hit.
Turn 145 - 425 BC
Liz is at -3 Annoyed with us...but wants Open Borders? I'm not sure if this is a strong diplomatic move overall....but she's the only one I can have trade routes with, and I'd like to explore her territory...so I agree.
Two turns later, Charlie DoW on Liz too...
Her power rating is still equal to both Monty and Charlie...but surely this can't last!
Turn 151 - 335 BC
Liz converts to Buddhism...how wonder what that will do to the war? Regardless, I need to get myself a piece of that religion lovin' soon.
Turn 152 - 305 BC
*cough* Apparently not enough. Monty would like my assistance against Liz!
While our relations might be recoverable under Buddha, Liz currently dislikes me and is very weakened. I have a decent number of archers in my border cities... I'm more worried about pillaging than anything, but I'm probably pretty safe. My biggest worry at the moment is losing the 2g worth of trade routes with England!!!
Now that I have Sailing I'm building a work boat in Amsterdam simply to find more AI civs to trade with...
Anyway, I think I need to accept this. I really want to buff my diplo vs. Monty so that he stays focused on England or Mongolia...
The English DO have axemen now.
Turn 161 - 185 BC
A gold and a river/dye/cottage come online on the same turn. I can finally raise my science rate from 0% to 30%.
Turn 166 - 110 BC
Charlie and Liz make peace. Liz still wants UTRECHT from me for peace!!!
I'm going to do a little pillaging. I don't know if that'll make much of a difference, but it hurts her and helps me.
Turn 170 - 50 BC
Now a hurricane in Amsterdam destroys the Granary. Wow, I can't catch a break this game.
Oh hey, we meet the Khmer! He found us with a work boat.
And Liz approaches Utrecht with an Axeman and a Swordman. I have 3 Archers and a Warrior defending, an axe arriving shortly, and an axe being built next turn. Should be okay, and might allow me to sue for a peace treaty.
She ends up attacking across a river and loses her Axe and killing an archer. My axeman mops up the damaged sword.
She still wants Utrecht. I notice that Monty is doing POORLY in score and has fallen behind in Power to Liz. Maybe I backed the wrong horse...
Turn 178 - 70 AD
Hey, why not a Barbarian uprising near Utrecht? Sure, 4 Axemen sound like fun!
WTH?
Let's review:
- Slave revolt
- Hurricane
- Barbarian uprising
That's three TERRIBLY PAINFUL negative events in 50 turns. Plus, let's not forget the Insane Random Number Generator Barbarians (IRNGBs) at the start of the game that wasted a couple dozen turns worth of units.
Anyway, I've already played longer than intended. I need to go -- may play some more turns later tonight...
In general, I refuse "Stop trading with" demands, as the victim will generally refuse to talk to you for a very long time. That's going to make trading Alphabet around difficult. You want to get at least IW for it. Then if you have a chance to trade it again, I'd consider self-researching Wheel and Myst, and trying to get Pottery+Poly for it.
But first, I'm worried about your economy crashing when you found that third city. Right now you're running a deficit at 60% research. Founding that third city will at least double your costs, forcing you to drop the slider almost to zero. I'd get the third boat built, and work 3 Clams + 2 scientists while building a worker (it'll be slow, but that's fine). And try to wait as long as you can with the settler -- until someone else shows up and you have to stake your claim.
City placements: [edit2: I just realized Barbarian Beach doesn't refer to a proposed city site, and that city wants to be 1SW of the Gold anyway ... sorry].
Then you want to pull the Cow to the NE. One option is NNE, working Gems, though it's a little food-poor. That would then suggest 1E of the settler's current spot (Wheat/Banana/Dye) and 1S of the northern Copper (Rice). Alternatively, ENE of the Cow, working Wheat, as a cottage city. That points to a spectacular spot just N of the Banana, although the northern tier might also shake out differently depending what's still unseen, and/or where the AI positions itself. But that also leaves some of the central tiles in an uninspiring set-up (Dye and south thereof). Shrug, not sure which to recommend.
peace,
lilnev
edit: you posted while I was composing this, it's now out of date....
But first, I'm worried about your economy crashing when you found that third city. Right now you're running a deficit at 60% research. Founding that third city will at least double your costs, forcing you to drop the slider almost to zero. I'd get the third boat built, and work 3 Clams + 2 scientists while building a worker (it'll be slow, but that's fine). And try to wait as long as you can with the settler -- until someone else shows up and you have to stake your claim.
City placements: [edit2: I just realized Barbarian Beach doesn't refer to a proposed city site, and that city wants to be 1SW of the Gold anyway ... sorry].
Then you want to pull the Cow to the NE. One option is NNE, working Gems, though it's a little food-poor. That would then suggest 1E of the settler's current spot (Wheat/Banana/Dye) and 1S of the northern Copper (Rice). Alternatively, ENE of the Cow, working Wheat, as a cottage city. That points to a spectacular spot just N of the Banana, although the northern tier might also shake out differently depending what's still unseen, and/or where the AI positions itself. But that also leaves some of the central tiles in an uninspiring set-up (Dye and south thereof). Shrug, not sure which to recommend.
peace,
lilnev
edit: you posted while I was composing this, it's now out of date....
futurehermit
Deity
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2006
- Messages
- 5,724
I still feel like getting one or both of those high-commerce cities online earlier would've been a stronger opening 
But I'm very interested to see this one played out
But I'm very interested to see this one played outquill18
Warlord
I still feel like getting one or both of those high-commerce cities online earlier would've been a stronger opening
In hindsight, I think that I'd agree. I didn't realize quite the impact that distance would have on all of this.
Now, if the north-eastern area didn't exist, and if England had beat us to the spot that we settled for our 2nd city while we grabbed a gold.....I'd probably be upset that I let myself get boxed in.
I think that the best thing would have been to settle the 2nd city as we did, but then immediately settle on a gold spot.
However, only time will tell if this more aggressive settling will pay off....
On the other hand, these negative events and the warring may prevent me from reaching that phase. Next time I play emp, I'm turning off the random events. I think they're great fun, but they SUCK for learning it.
Luck/bad luck is part of the game, don't let it get to you.
I think it was a good move to settle aggressive here. Let's not forget there was no bronze or horses. It would've been real bad if quill got boxed into that semi-island he started on and then be left with no military resource. (Of course he has iron in his capital but that was unknown).
Well at least I agree on that 1st settle. That second aggressive settle pretty much killed off the science, might have been better to settle a commerce city before that. But it doesn't look bad atm really.
Did you assign scientists? 133 turns for priesthood lmao. Try to keep your science running! Put those libraries to some use, especially if you're running 0% science.
Try to delay trading alphabet as well, I think you got a little bit too willing here. I usually try to trade alph for math or iw+backfill. Funny screenshot btw of monty and his advanced mysticism tech! I never had that happen.
You're researching priesthood atm, so I assume you're after col? I like going into the "culture" tree for GL and only afterwards go col. On the other hand you certainly could use some courthouses in those two cities. It's up to you, I think both ways are good. Col is nice to trade with as well.
Diplo wise, declaring war on liz .. very brave of you with just archers.
Nice diplo bonus with monty and charle for the future.
I was actually a bit worried with an early 3v1. It wouldn't be nice if monty and charle grab some extra cities already. But it seems they're not having much succes, so all is well.
ps: You still didn't chop that forest S/E of your capital, just outside fat cross.
edit: Btw I love your capital. High food & lots of hammers. <3
I think it was a good move to settle aggressive here. Let's not forget there was no bronze or horses. It would've been real bad if quill got boxed into that semi-island he started on and then be left with no military resource. (Of course he has iron in his capital but that was unknown).
Well at least I agree on that 1st settle. That second aggressive settle pretty much killed off the science, might have been better to settle a commerce city before that. But it doesn't look bad atm really.
Did you assign scientists? 133 turns for priesthood lmao. Try to keep your science running! Put those libraries to some use, especially if you're running 0% science.
Try to delay trading alphabet as well, I think you got a little bit too willing here. I usually try to trade alph for math or iw+backfill. Funny screenshot btw of monty and his advanced mysticism tech! I never had that happen.
You're researching priesthood atm, so I assume you're after col? I like going into the "culture" tree for GL and only afterwards go col. On the other hand you certainly could use some courthouses in those two cities. It's up to you, I think both ways are good. Col is nice to trade with as well.
Diplo wise, declaring war on liz .. very brave of you with just archers.
Nice diplo bonus with monty and charle for the future.I was actually a bit worried with an early 3v1. It wouldn't be nice if monty and charle grab some extra cities already. But it seems they're not having much succes, so all is well.
ps: You still didn't chop that forest S/E of your capital, just outside fat cross.
edit: Btw I love your capital. High food & lots of hammers. <3
quill18
Warlord
That forest will be in the fat cross of the cow/gold city. It's going to be a relatively hammer-weak site. I thought that keeping the forest for it would end up being favorable.
And yeah, the capital is going to be a godly production city. As far as the research goes, I was running, at one point, 2 scientists in each city. Right now only Amsterdam is while my frontline cities are building axes.
And yeah, I'd love me some GL -- and with Amsterdam being a hammer beast, that might still work out depending on the AI's research...but maintenance is killing me. 3.69 in Utrecht and a whopping 4.97 in The Hague (3.77 from distance). I had no idea that distance penalties were so high...
If I can't get this ridiculous economy tamed, this will all be a dismal failure. My research rate is still just 30%, with 3 GPT income, plus 2 GS. CoL is due in 8 turns.
Anyway, I'll try to put in a few more turns now before bed.
quill18
Warlord
Okay, Liz is still quite strong despite the multi-front war, and she's PISSED:
Kill english swordsman.
Kill english axe.
Kill english axe.
Kill english axe.
Lose a sword.
Lose an archer.
I definitely need to give the AI more credit on emperor. Thank the gods she doesn't have cats...
(And no, I'm not whipping Utrecht as a general rule...this was an emergency.)
Several turns pass without a repeat attack. Elizabeth converts to Judaism (which Suryavaman founded). Well......that's not going to be healthy for her.
Turn 187 - 205 AD
Code of Laws comes in.
Liz makes peace with Monty. Uh oh. She still wants Utrecht for peace with me... I really think we need to make a move against her to force a more reasonable settlement...
While looking around for trades, I notice that in the last 2 turns Charlie went from being willing to negotiate a DoW against Liz (though I had nothing to offer) to "We have too much on our hands.".
*crosses fingers* Please DoW Liz...
Anyway, the best I can get for CoL is Monotheism, which doesn't seem worth it at all. I'm going to try to sink a few turns in Monarchy and see if that opens up a trade from Kublai. Again, Monty and Charlie don't LIKE Kublai, but I don't think I'll get any "worst enemy" negatives, right?
*gasp* Our tech rate is at 50% with a +3 gpt surplus! We'd actually get Monarchy in 13 turns on our own (at epic speed).
Turn 188 - 205 AD
One turn of research sunk into Monarchy...
Wow, was THAT ever a good trick to learn from the ALCs...
Now, no one I know has Aesthetics yet. We can get it in 15 turns (and Lit in 12) at our current rate, and it's about to go up another notch or two with our growing populating and maturing cottages. With Amsterdam being as beefy as it is, I think we might have a shot to complete it. Yes? No?
Now, next turn we get a Great Scientist in Amsterdam... Academy in The Hague (commerce city)? Amsterdam is producing the most beakers at the moment (even without specialists), but that's bound to change.
After the GS pops, it would be nice to drop the specialists and just build a bunch of axes and swords to force a peace offer from Liz... That would add 3 turns (at current rates) to our Aesthetics research...
You know, I'm just going to save at this point and wait for further input. I don't want to have other people play the game for me, but I feel that this is an important juncture.
Right now, I think I'd settle the GS in The Hague, drop the scientists, and mass some troops. Taking a city is likely to be unfeasible without catapults, but if I can group enough people to go on a pillaging campaign and force a ceacefire, I'd be happy.
I'd probably keep researching Aesthetics. If I finish it and another AI already has it, I might just dump it on the open market for other techs. If no one has it, I'll commit every resource to getting Lit fast and power-building the GL.
Oh, and so I remember:
Hereditary Rule is a no-brainer. What about Slavery vs. Caste System?
Kill english swordsman.
Kill english axe.
Kill english axe.
Kill english axe.
Lose a sword.
Lose an archer.
I definitely need to give the AI more credit on emperor. Thank the gods she doesn't have cats...
(And no, I'm not whipping Utrecht as a general rule...this was an emergency.)
Several turns pass without a repeat attack. Elizabeth converts to Judaism (which Suryavaman founded). Well......that's not going to be healthy for her.
Turn 187 - 205 AD
Code of Laws comes in.
Liz makes peace with Monty. Uh oh. She still wants Utrecht for peace with me... I really think we need to make a move against her to force a more reasonable settlement...
While looking around for trades, I notice that in the last 2 turns Charlie went from being willing to negotiate a DoW against Liz (though I had nothing to offer) to "We have too much on our hands.".
*crosses fingers* Please DoW Liz...
Anyway, the best I can get for CoL is Monotheism, which doesn't seem worth it at all. I'm going to try to sink a few turns in Monarchy and see if that opens up a trade from Kublai. Again, Monty and Charlie don't LIKE Kublai, but I don't think I'll get any "worst enemy" negatives, right?
*gasp* Our tech rate is at 50% with a +3 gpt surplus! We'd actually get Monarchy in 13 turns on our own (at epic speed).
Turn 188 - 205 AD
One turn of research sunk into Monarchy...
Wow, was THAT ever a good trick to learn from the ALCs...
Now, no one I know has Aesthetics yet. We can get it in 15 turns (and Lit in 12) at our current rate, and it's about to go up another notch or two with our growing populating and maturing cottages. With Amsterdam being as beefy as it is, I think we might have a shot to complete it. Yes? No?
Now, next turn we get a Great Scientist in Amsterdam... Academy in The Hague (commerce city)? Amsterdam is producing the most beakers at the moment (even without specialists), but that's bound to change.
After the GS pops, it would be nice to drop the specialists and just build a bunch of axes and swords to force a peace offer from Liz... That would add 3 turns (at current rates) to our Aesthetics research...
You know, I'm just going to save at this point and wait for further input. I don't want to have other people play the game for me, but I feel that this is an important juncture.
Right now, I think I'd settle the GS in The Hague, drop the scientists, and mass some troops. Taking a city is likely to be unfeasible without catapults, but if I can group enough people to go on a pillaging campaign and force a ceacefire, I'd be happy.
I'd probably keep researching Aesthetics. If I finish it and another AI already has it, I might just dump it on the open market for other techs. If no one has it, I'll commit every resource to getting Lit fast and power-building the GL.
Oh, and so I remember:
Hereditary Rule is a no-brainer. What about Slavery vs. Caste System?
