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Learning Emperor

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by quill18, Jan 6, 2008.

  1. quill18

    quill18 Warlord

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    The HoF mod has all that *except* the lightbulbing, as far as I can tell.

    Skill. Pure skill.

    Oh, and probably the wars. ;)
     
  2. wkndwrrr

    wkndwrrr Warlord

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    Somewhat off-topic, but: quill18, what option did you use to get your images to be that size?
     
  3. quill18

    quill18 Warlord

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    When you upload an image to Photobucket, it gets resized to a max of 800x600.
     
  4. quill18

    quill18 Warlord

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    Amazon has it for $27 right now -- maybe that's better than your local stores?

    As far as Vanilla goes, what's the big difference in interest level? The game is pretty darned similar, and I don't mind reading about vanilla games. Unique buildings and espionage do not make or break a story! :)
     
  5. ifinnem

    ifinnem Keep it interesting

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    BUG has some other stuff like Sevopedia etc - no vested interest just something that works for me

    On the NE def put it in Amsterdam (better late than never...:lol: )
     
  6. BurN

    BurN Prince

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    Quill nooo, you peacemongerer! :lol:

    I think you should have gone to war once cats came in. What I was fearing, has now happened. Monty and charle getting bigger and you not getting a piece of the english. I think after at least the gl you should've prepared for war. Good job getting that btw. I would've chopped though, but it worked out fine.

    Diplo wise, there's many ways to play right now. You could try to bribe charle+kublai into war with monty and declare on monty as well to snatch some cities. Or bribe monty into war with kublai and snatch some cities as well. Or bribe monty into war with charle and attack charle. Any war is good, it's up to you to decide who to attack.

    If you feel you have no chance whatsoever on competing on military level, try to at least prevent a dogpile on kublai. Bribe them to peace if they do declare. First of all you need kublai to be alive for him to stay more of an enemy then you. Second, monty or charle even more expanding can be dangerous for the future.
    It's still some techs away but maybe a beeline for artillery or cannons for war? Or am I being too optimistic about your tech speed here?

    Many options at this stage. If you're not going to war probably try to get astronomy in trade asap to settle some more islands and more importantly to get observatories.
    I'm not quite sure what techs to go for if you want a peaceful end game. Democracy/economics for civics. Then off to steam power for your ub, assembly line for factories and to keep you safe for a war. Afterwards maybe a beeline towards labs and the internet next.

    Is there any ai going for culture win? Since I don't play bts I don't have to worry about that. If so, it might be nice to be ready to raze one of his culture cities.

    For lib, as long as no ai got education yet .. delay it at 1 turn from completion. Maybe you can snatch constitution or democracy from lib. :mischief:

    Since you asked for bulb paths, I had this link bookmarked and it helped me quite a bit in the past: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=140952

    NE in amsterdam would be nice if you plan to keep on running scientists there. But something to think about is emancipation, which means no more running a lot of GP. With a dike and bureaucracy, you might want to work as many tiles as possible anyways for hammers+commerce. So it might be a waste of hammers to build NE at this stage.
    On the other hand if you build oxford in amsterdam, you can still run quite some GS and maybe combine it with GM/GE's so NE might still be profitable.

    Well played, the game seems very winnable at this point. Let's hope for the best and let's hope monty doesn't come up with some crazy stuff.:)


    BTS/vanilla, who cares really. It's still basically the same game. If you decide to run one, I would read it. :mischief:

    I'll get my copy as soon as I'm done with my exams though. I don't want the temptation atm. I'm mostly curious about the difference in the AI. They're supposed to war better in bts but some of their bonuses got nerfed. (no more insta upgraded longbows->riffles for example)
     
  7. Mike Hussey

    Mike Hussey Cricketer

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    Hey quill18, where did you get the HOF mod from? Thanks
     
  8. quill18

    quill18 Warlord

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  9. quill18

    quill18 Warlord

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    BurN called me a peacemonger. I don't think anyone has ever said that about me. :lol:

    Our military cannot stand up to Monty right now -- but I will be building troops and watching carefully for the moment that he becomes vulnerable. Kublai, by the way, has "Nothing to gain" from attacking Monty, oddly enough. So we don't have to worry about a dogpile, but it does make it more difficult for US to take advantage of a dogpile.

    Turn 323 - 1515AD

    Charlie and Monty exchange a city.

    Turn 325 - 1515AD

    Lib is one turn from completing.

    What to do?

    Trying to research Nationalism and poping either Constitution or Democracy to get a head start on SoL would be nice.

    On the other hand, I could try to pick up Steam Power to build dikes. I need Chemistry and Replaceable parts for that.

    The advantage of going this second route is that if I only have time to research ONE tech, I could pop Steel (if I do Chemistry) or Rifling (if I do Replaceable Parts). Both of these have a higher beaker cost than if I poped Constitution (after Nationalism).

    Oh, here's we go. I'll research Replaceable Parts, trade it for Chemistry (which several AIs have) and then pop Steam Power. I can Dike everywhere at that point and research rifling. Riflemen can be used defensively while I build up the Democracy route, or can be used offensively if I research Steel.

    Either way, I'll want the rifles because I'm about to make enemies with Monty...



    Peacemonger, eh? Well, I'll show you...



    (And yeah, I put a turn into the wrong tech.... :mad: )

    Turn 331 - 1555AD

    Frederick grabbed Education this turn. So much for all that. ;)

    Well, I can trade Education (and Music) to Charly in exchange for Chemistry and pop Steel with Liberalism. I can then rush out some cannons and take a big bite out of Monty...I hope.

    Turn 332 - 1560AD

    Hm...It looks like no one has economics. It WOULD be nice to get a GM out of that and use it for a trade mission, not to mention the extra trade routes (especially once Astronomy comes into play -- and three AIs have Astro and Kublai is willing to trade it, but it looks like I have a Steel monopoly right now, so lets wait...)

    Grrr...I dunno. There's always the chance we might not be first. Besides, it would be nice to work towards our UB AND see about getting rifling.

    Replaceable parts it is...

    Turn 339 - 1595AD

    The English have a stack just outside of the Aztec Canterbury. It's going to be a balancing act to be the one to capture it...

    Turn 342 - 1610AD

    Now or never...



    W...T...F...

    The Aztecs had already been sieged.

    First Cat Withdraws.
    Second Cat suicides.
    Cannon has 99% chance, is promoted for max collateral, succeeds.
    Cannon has 99% chance, is promoted for max collateral, succeeds.
    Maceman has 98% chance vs Knight. LOSES.

    :confused: :mad: :eek: :cry:

    Crap. I can't depend on having enough units in Canterbury now to defend against the counter-attack. I'm going to have to let the English take another shot.

    Luckily they don't appear to have enough people to complete the conquest...and next turn I have 3 more units available for the assault.

    *crosses fingers*

    Turn 343 - 1615AD



    Wait.....what?

    AGAINST Quill18?? No no, I *started* the war, Charlie. You dummy.

    Wow...I'd better take Canterbury and try to get something out of Monty for peace in case this passes.

    Oh wow, The Hague popped some gold in a mine!

    Okay, attack Part 2.

    Cannon dies to Knight.
    Cannon dies to Knight. (I had 81% odds.)
    Cannon withdraws from Knight.
    Musket defeats Jag.
    Mace defeats Knight.
    Mace defeats Knight.
    Mace defeats Chariot.
    Mace defeats Treb.



    Sorry English, better luck next time.

    Monty will make peace with my for 90 gold.
    Charlie will make peace with him for Liberalism.

    I'm not in a position to grab more Aztec land yet (especially if AP vote passes), so this seems like a good way to put the brakes on Charlie. War will inevitably break out again soon, so I'll be sure to develop a stack of Rifles and Cannons...

    I raise a little post-war cash by trading Liberalism to the other civs before Charlie can.

    Our empire:



    We have NOT yet converted to Christianity. I was hoping Charlie would ask me so that I could milk the extra diplo points from agreeing. We're currently only at a +2 due to a whopping -4 heathen religion modifier. I think it's time for us to do it. Monty's at a 0 with us right now, but I don't think that affords us any more safety than the -8 or so we'll get after a religious swap. He's currently at -12 with Charlie (mutually). If I keep a strong garrison in Newcastle/Canterbury, I think we'll be safe.

    We can also build the Forbidden Palace now. Where? The Hague?

    I have to head out for the afternoon. There may or may not be more turns this evening.
     

    Attached Files:

  10. Hackapell

    Hackapell Rhetorician

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    A few questions:

    1) Why, if you want the war to continue, did you not defy?
    2) With 6 religions floating around, why don't you go FR and avoid the whole mess?
    3) Is Stalin a vassal of Sury? If not, he's small and on your borders, with little research potential... sounds like a good chance for expansion.
    4) What did you take with liberalism?
    5) With the Aztec empire split in two, why didn't you go north instead of south?
    6) Is Lizzy a vassal of Charlemange? If not, see #3 for what you should do.
    7) Where are the dikes??? Si desideras pacem, paravit bellum. Get production up fast, as US and dikes turn a river commercial city into a production powerhouse.

    Some thoughts for you.
     
  11. BurN

    BurN Prince

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    Eh good call on bribing charle to peace. Last thing you want is charle whooping monty's ass with grens.

    I would vote for free religion as well. Seems like you got a good idea what to do next, nothing to add. :)
     
  12. quill18

    quill18 Warlord

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    1. I have buddhism in lots of cities. It would have caused mondo unhappiness. Also.....diplo penalties? I think there are some for defying UN, not sure. And I didn't want the war to *continue* exactly. I was more-or-less spent after capturing the 2nd city. My concern was making sure that I *could* capture the second city.

    2) Good call. While I *really* like the idea of having a staunch christian ally in Charly, I can probably stay on good terms the best by by FR.

    3) Yes. Colony, actually.

    4) Steel. And Cannons have already proven their worth.

    5) The two northern Aztec cities are on islands. Not unreachable, but I was going to be pressed as-is to maintain a strong garrison on my land border. Going south meant that my offense could be my defense and avoided the need to build ships.

    6) Yes.

    7) Yeah okay, Steam Power before Rifling will probably be best -- especially if I pop into FR and ease the tension with Sury/Kublai/Charly.
     
  13. Bleys

    Bleys Deity

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    I dont own the core game, I play through my GameTap subscription (best 10 bucks I spend a month, I have played DOZENS of awesome games there). So my cost would be 50 bucks for the game (Gold edition gets me Warlords too, of course) and then another 25ish for BTS. I am actually watching eBay for a copy of Civ IV: Complete, which is only available overseas at this time. Amazon.UK has Complete for around $35, but wont ship to USA addresses. If I cant find an eBay deal I like, I already have a friend in Europe willing to buy it and ship it to me, if I wish to go that route. For now, though, I dont mind Vanilla, since I have only been playing the game a month or so (whatever my "join date" to this forum is, that was my First day on Civ IV, I dont mess around when it comes to going straight to the BEST source for info!)

    As for the differences in expansions, I agree that they are plenty similar, but at Emperor and above, it really becomes "the little things" that make all the difference. There is no Great Wall in Vanilla, for example, so early barbarian control is a factor. No corporations either, and espionage is really limited in vanilla compared to Warlords/BTW.

    Not only that, but the AIs tendency to plop cities down behind yours is a really big difference, especially on Prince and above. Last Pangaea I played I had cities from 3 different civs totally surrounded by my own, I eventually flipped 2 and conquered the other, but it really affected my strategy, especially when the only Iron near me was in one of their first-rings.

    I also think that many of the regulars on these boards have already done Vanilla "to death", if you get my meaning, and its just not as interesting anymore. Thats fine, I will wait, hone my skills on this version, and be ready for BTS due to the tremendous amount of strong info available here. I plan to play this game at least a year, and once I get BTS myself, I am going to cancel my GameTap, thats how strong I feel this game is for me.
     
  14. BurN

    BurN Prince

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    I would disagree on this. You need to get the maximum out of your military tech lead now imho. And research rifling is priority.

    I'm looking back on your screenshots and I see no city is producing units. Ofcourse I can't see how many units you have atm but if I were you I'd start making cannons while you're waiting for rifles.
    There's 2 options imho:

    1. Switch to vassalage+theocracy+slavery and crank out units non stop. Any city that has at least some production or any city with high food should be making units. By hammers or whip.
    2. If you can get nationhood in trade. Switch to nationhood+slavery and draft+whip a massive army from all your cities.

    I vote for wiping monty of the earth with the next declaration.
     
  15. Mike Hussey

    Mike Hussey Cricketer

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    Ok thanks!
     
  16. quill18

    quill18 Warlord

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    Hey folks, I'm not dead -- just got pulled into a couple multiplayer games...and then...

    Last night I started things up to make a post, but two turns into the next round Sury declares war on me. He's the score leader, of course, and has built a powerful naval conquest fleet. I, on the other hand, am still woefully low on the power chart and what forces I *do* have are on the eastern front recovering from the war with Monty.

    Anyway, Glittering Pigs gets taken quickly. I'm able to take it back briefly before losing it again.

    There IS an AP vote shortly afterwards to stop the war against (thanks Charlie!), and Sury strangely decides NOT to defy with his 5 votes (so...one city maybe?) and the war ends.

    Still, that knocked the fight out of me, I think. A follow-up attack is inevitable and while I might be able to muster an acceptable defensive force by then, it's unlikely that I can take the fight to the Khmer/Russians withing a reasonable time-frame. Furthermore, I feel that the stretched-out shape of my empire will make it difficult to concentrate a defensive force for a push-back.

    Anyway, I don't think I'm willing to slug it out just to try to maintain the status quo, especially when I'm so far behind. If I'd been able to DoW on Monty without interference, and then colonized the remaining scattered islands and try to tech up for a space win...it might have been possible.

    Maybe someone can pick up the 1615 save and do something productive with it, but I think I'm going to call it quits. There were a lot of mistakes with the start, and I've learned a ton from this thread. I'll soon start another online Emperor game and try to get off to a stronger start -- chasing the pack from behind like this was no fun. :(

    Meanwhile, I'm going to check out Pigswill's shadow game!
     
  17. BurN

    BurN Prince

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    Aw, sad to see it end. I was already wondering where you went!

    I would just try to play it out. How "bad" is it? Losing a city isn't a big deal imho as long as you can retake it asap. Happened plenty of times to me. You can focus on retaking, while you got Charle to keep Monty of your back if he decides to declare on you.
     
  18. quill18

    quill18 Warlord

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    I'm sure I can retake it. What needs to be discussed is the possibility of a win -- is it out there? And if so, which is it?

    If I have to declare on Sury to get my city back, he's going to hate me regardless of a switch to FR, so continued harassment from him is likely unless I can significantly buff my power rating -- and I have a long way to go. And if I'm focusing on that, I won't be expanding my overseas holdings or building more economic infrastructure. I've been keeping pace tech-wise remarkably well, but can I gain the lead required for a space victory?

    :confused:

    I probably WILL finish the game, since I don't like leaving loose ends like this -- though I may use more lightweight reporting. If it's going to be a long, slow slug-fest to the end, I'll skip some of the typing that I might otherwise do.

    It's funny, one little DoW made me flip from relatively confident to completely broken. I was sure that I could grab Monty's land and from there leverage a strong Financial/Dike-powered economy to a space win, but that assumed a certain level of civility with Sury.
     
  19. BurN

    BurN Prince

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    I gotta say that guy got a lot of land there. But anything is possible, might even consider attacking surya oversea and grab a piece of his land to put him back in place. Map generator was quite generous with his landmass indeed. You don't even have to "take" his cities. Just bring a good sod and raze/pillage as much cities and land as you can to cripple him.

    Monty shouldn't be a problem at this stage. You can defend your land easily from him since there's not much possible ways he can come. And if he declares, charle will likely stomp him into the ground for you.

    It's hard to tell, how advanced is surya? How big was his attacking force? I mean if his powergraph is trough the roof and he got artilery already, starting an oversea war might not be much of a plan. :lol: If surya is out of your league, retake your city anyways and put up a good defense. If you can sue for peace, you can grab more land from monty after. Or if you feel confident in your tech speed, just turtle to space. (and grabbing the internet!)

    Anyways GL!~
     
  20. quill18

    quill18 Warlord

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    I did end up playing a short round last night. I'm posting from work right now :shifty: so I don't have my screenshots, but here's the play-by-play as I remember it:

    I shifted as many troops away from the Aztec border as I felt that I could afford, counting on Charlie to help out if there was trouble. Shortly after they arrived at the western end of my empire, Rifling completed. I dropped research to 0% and took a couple of turns to upgrade my (few) CR1/CR2 Macemen to Riflemen.

    Most of my cities at this point were building Riflemen, and my island cities were being pretty aggressively whipped -- which was probably a good thing since as soon as I declared war, Sury's frigates were being pretty aggressive with the bombardments. There could have been a sea assault anywhere, and I still didn't have a navy capable of fighting him off.

    The turn after I declared war (and moved troops adjacent to Glittering Pigs), another AP vote came up to stop the war against me! How interesting... Anyway, I voted "Yes", used one cannon to knock Glittering Pigs down to 0% defense (from 12%), suicided one, withdrew with two, and then took the city with 4 Riflemen attacks and 1 Maceman (due for promotion).

    The next turn, the AP vote came in to stop the war...and Sury was no longer on the list of members. Huh?

    It just came to me *this morning* what happened. Sury's only Buddhist city must have been Glittering Pigs! Oh well. Still, Sury was willing to talk peace -- though he wanted the city back. Now, in my mind, a city is worth far more than a tech. Sury, however, was willing to redeclare peace for the cost of Constitution, my cheapest non-military tech. I went for it because I still didn't have a navy that could be used to threaten his land. Ships of the Line are coming online shortly, and I'll be sure to have a couple of East-Indiamen ready soon in case I need to head his way. I also want them to colonize more islands. Meanwhile, what troops I can spare are returning to the Aztec border. Charlie's diplomatic options indicate that he's planning to attack someone, so I need to be ready to pounce on Monty within a few turns.

    A couple of turns after my peace treaty with Sury, Liz comes by and asks me to convert to Free Religion. This is, of course, part of my overall plan so I accept. I am still producing units, but I'm still in Vassalage so I'm still getting an XP boost. It would have been nice to go Nationalism+Theocracy, but whatever.

    Even though I've been sitting at 30% research :eek: for some time now, I'm still maintaining a relative tech parity. Partially, this is due to some aggressive tech brokering on my part, but surely the AI's near constant military actions are working in my favour. In fact, I think only Kublai has never been to war, and maybe Fred.

    Sury is remarkably open to trading now that I'm in FR, and I trade him two non-strategic resources for 22 GPT. I also renegotiate a few existing deals and can bump my research up to 40%. :rolleyes: Some scientists are also helping us stay afloat on the journey towards Steam Power.

    Power-wise, I'm in the neighbourhood of Sury/Monty, the only two civs that I have demographics for at the moment. Sury have Riflemen now, as well as a substantial naval fleet. It's possible that I have parity with his ground forces. Regarding Monty, I expect his standard swarms of weaker units.

    Going forward into the next round, I hope to build enough Riflemen to provide a strong defensive garrison as well as a deterrent (via power-graph). I'm expecting Charlie to DoW on Monty soon and I want to be ready to charge in one (or two) turns later...just after Monty has smashed a Stack-o-Doom against Charlie's forces and weakened himself. Monty has 4 or 5 cities left on this continent (and two island cities north of my territory). I'd like to wipe Monty off of the continent (grabbing three cities for myself if possible) and then vassalize his islands. Even if Monty's islands vassalize to Charlie, I won't be bothered overly much.

    As far as civics go, I want to leave them as-is until Steam Power comes in. At that point, I'll whip the hell out of my islands to build Dikes before converting to...something. Free Market for sure (even though MOST civs are still Mercantilism, as I am now -- Economy has been spread around so change is imminent. How far am I from State Property, I wonder?) Emancipation too, since I'm starting to get :mad: faces from it.

    I think that a Space Victory is the only one open to me right now -- does that make sense to everyone?

    Assuming the war against Monty is successful, should I consider additional conquest, or should I just turtle and tech?

    I'll try to post a save tonight, and screenshots too if I get the chance.
     

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