[RD] Learning math as an adult.

[Mouthwash]

My years in elementary school showed that I am naturally talented at reading and math. I was placed in an advanced math class upon entering sixth grade and managed to keep up with everyone else for a few months. Eventually I lost my ability to handle it. By year's end I simply did not to do that work that was assigned to me. Despite my ADHD, I think I'm easily capable of learning calculus under the right circumstances.

There are two huge problems that I can see in my education:

1. The actual learning consisted of being taught an algorithm and then practicing that algorithm for the remainder of the class as well as in that night's homework. Now this is a good strategy for coding an AI, but what I needed was either to apply the algorithm to something real (or just something that interested me more than the abstract notion of increasing my knowledge) or understanding how that algorithm was used intuitively.

2. I couldn't spot any pattern or connection between the material. Maybe that's a consequence of not understanding what it was I was learning, but I strongly suspect that an emphasis was placed on being 'well-rounded.' Surely there must be many, many different branches of math? And surely they are not useful for the same things? I don't think even engineers or physicists would use all of the hundreds of algorithms we were expected to learn.

As I type this, I don't remember how to do any sort of math beyond multiplication. I'll have to go to university at some point, and applying to one will certainly involve a math test, so how do I learn math in a reasonable/sane fashion?

 

[W|M]

Despite my ADHD, I think I'm easily capable of learning calculus under the right circumstances.

As I type this, I don't remember how to do any sort of math beyond multiplication.

You're not going to be easily capable of learning calculus if you know little about maths beyond arithmetic.

 

[Mouthwash]

I meant eventually.

 

[Kozmos]

Try KhanAcademy and work your way up from what you don't know. There's also a few books I found handy: Mastering Technical Mathematics; Guide to Essential Math (for Phys, Chem and Engineering students) ; Mathematics for Computer Science. Depends on where you might be headed.

A lot of math will probably be useless to you or you won't be able to see how it is useful. I don't know a way to remedy this without lucking out with a great teacher or going into computer science where things can become a lot more tangible should you wish for it.

 

[dusters]

As a math teacher I can tell you - You need a Goal. In every day life, logarithms and functions won't be of (almost) any use unless you are into engineering, finance or some other field close to mathematical analysis.

So what is your goal?

 

[Samson]

Can I threadjack this? I am also seriously considering how I can improve my maths. I have studied maths to age 18 and used some statistics in my computational biology career but am pretty lost trying to follow the algorithms in some papers such as [1] and [2]. Do you have any suggestions about how to get to that sort of level? I am expecting it to take some time and potentially some money.

[1] http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/bimj.200900028/full
[2] http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1541-0420.2010.01391.x/full

 

[Ferocitus]

You don't love it enough to have started learning on your own.
So, no, it's not for you. Find some other course of study that
you care passionately about.

 

[Kyriakos]

As I type this, I don't remember how to do any sort of math beyond multiplication. I'll have to go to university at some point, and applying to one will certainly involve a math test, so how do I learn math in a reasonable/sane fashion?

If this is about an entry test, wouldn't the more apt move be to get information on what those tests consist of and (assuming Israel has this) get some tutor/go to a special preparatory school just for the math usually in such tests?

If your knowledge of math doesn't go beyond arithmetic, it is likely a bit too late for an actual career related to it. But i sincerely wish you good luck

 

[Mouthwash]

Try KhanAcademy

Yeah... Khan Academy is one of the worst examples of the "rote memorization of algorithms" thing.

As a math teacher I can tell you - You need a Goal. In every day life, logarithms and functions won't be of (almost) any use unless you are into engineering, finance or some other field close to mathematical analysis.

So what is your goal?

I want to go into history. I'll need a good grasp of statistics to do that. I've also considered game design but I don't think it'll happen.

You don't love it enough to have started learning on your own.
So, no, it's not for you. Find some other course of study that
you care passionately about.

Math is not simply a "course of study." Anyone who believes that shouldn't be teaching it.

If this is about an entry test, wouldn't the more apt move be to get information on what those tests consist of and (assuming Israel has this) get some tutor/go to a special preparatory school just for the math usually in such tests?

Mathematics is useful for any serious field. I don't want to learn all or even most of grade-school math, but I need some kind of real education.

 

[Kozmos]

Yeah... Khan Academy is one of the best examples of the "rote memorization of algorithms" thing.

Well, how else do you expect to learn? Do you want to prove every theorem by hand? Solve problems? Pick up and start working on Project Euler:

- https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/739735.How_to_Prove_It

- https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/112243.Concrete_Mathematics

If you have ADHD don't you have medication for it? Adderall was/is very popular for students of hard colleges around here. They do have to prove every theorem to their professors. Imagine that pain in the ass.

 

[Mouthwash]

Well, how else do you expect to learn? Do you want to prove every theorem by hand? Solve problems? Pick up and start working on Project Euler:

- https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/739735.How_to_Prove_It

- https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/112243.Concrete_Mathematics

What fields require you to prove "theorem" besides physics and mathematics?

If you have ADHD don't you have medication for it? Adderall was/is very popular for students of hard colleges around here.

Apparently you can't get Adderall in Israel. Or maybe you can and my doctor is just too incompetent to understand what I'm talking about (a real possibility). Anyway, I only have Ritalin, which as far as I can tell only makes me manic.

 

[emzie]

I took night classes at a local high school. I have ADHD too, and the difference in my life before/after proper medication is huge.

Apparently you can't get Adderall in Israel. Or maybe you can and my doctor is just too incompetent to understand what I'm talking about (a real possibility). Anyway, I only have Ritalin, which as far as I can tell only makes me manic.

Found this

Five percent of children with attention disorders do not respond to Ritalin or Concerta and need medications not included in the government-subsidized "health basket," including Adderall, Vyvanse and Strattera.

http://www.haaretz.com/study-thousands-of-israeli-kids-incorrectly-prescribed-ritalin-1.264510

To me that sounds like the drugs are available, but you have to pay out of pocket. My adderall without insurance is 130 CAD / month. I have insurance so I pay about 30. Your doctor may not be aware of this, but pharmacists would be. I would talk to them about your options. From the health ministry,

http://www.health.gov.il/English/News_and_Events/Spokespersons_Messages/Pages/17062014_1.aspx

Vyvanse is very similar to Adderall. It's amphetamines, but not the same mix as adderall, and not as liable to be abused.

 

[Kyriakos]

^You don't need to prove theorems yourself (ie know how to prove them), Kozmos just noted that some people want to know themselves the proof for every theorem used in something they do. If one is a research mathematician it makes a different kind of sense to learn the actual proofs of everything - they try to find in the proof a better understanding of what the math was about. Else (eg in writing a paper) they just note that so and so is based on proven theorem x, and carry on from there.

For an ethusiast, it makes every sense to know the proofs of stuff that interest you. Yet those are only asked for in tests, not needed for new (non research) work. If you just want to use stats in a field like history, you can rely on set formulas.

 

[warpus]

1. The actual learning consisted of being taught an algorithm and then practicing that algorithm for the remainder of the class as well as in that night's homework. Now this is a good strategy for coding an AI, but what I needed was either to apply the algorithm to something real (or just something that interested me more than the abstract notion of increasing my knowledge) or understanding how that algorithm was used intuitively.

This way of teaching math worked the best for me:

1. A new algorithm is presented
2. The new algorithm relies on a related theorem (or theorems)
3. The entire class is spent proving the theorem rigorously
4. Once you have proved the theorem you can then proceed to use the related method, to solve problems

On midterm and final exam tests, as well as assignments, we were asked to use the method we learned in ways we haven't seen before. We were also often asked to prove similar theorems (that we hadn't seen before either), for example with 1 extra dimension.. i.e. similar idea, different details

Since you couldn't predict what sort of stuff you would see on midterms and final exams, you had to actually understand the theorems and how they work. You had to understand the principles behind what was going on, so that you could apply them in situations that you've never seen before. The best way for learning this was to prove everything, and understand why things were proved the way they were, and what the thinking behind every step was. It forced you to eventually see the big picture, which is vital.

Giving you a formula and asking you to apply it over and over obviously wouldn't work in such conditions, because you would get your midterm and encounter questions you've never seen before. Your formulas would not work, you needed to use critical thinking and reasoning skills to figure out the new formula, on the fly.

Anyway, from my experience high school math classes were of the "here's the formula, now use it 50 times" variety, while university math was of the "let's prove everything" variety. Mind you I went to a math heavy University which from what I've heard has high math standards. That could have changed since, but.. either way.. I could never learn math using the "here's a formula, now use it a bunch of times" method. I need to understand why things work the way they do. I mean, with some things it's fine, but with for example calculus, I didn't really understand calculus until University. In highschool they just threw formulas at us, and we did do a lot of proving of them through first principles, but it did not really stick with me. In university I had to understand every single theorem and how to apply it in different (and unexpected) ways, or else I'd fail out of the class, so that's probably why - I had to understand material or else be screwed, so I took the time to understand it, instead of just memorizing formulas, which wouldn't have worked.

So I dunno, maybe take some university level intro to calculus courses or whatever. But make sure the level of teaching is high enough for them to not just throw formulas at you and that's it.

 

[Kozmos]

What fields require you to prove "theorem" besides physics and mathematics?

Those two were the main ones, but I heard enough grumbling from colleagues in CS and Chem. Dinosaur professors apparently intent on doing everything the old fashioned way. I'd still recommend How to Prove it though, it's an interesting book and helps you get a grip on how to think.

Apparently you can't get Adderall in Israel. Or maybe you can and my doctor is just too incompetent to understand what I'm talking about (a real possibility). Anyway, I only have Ritalin, which as far as I can tell only makes me manic.

Mania can be advantageous provided you can channel it effectively. Do some experimenting so you get the right amount of focus vs distraction of energy. Math sometimes is just a slog until you get it to 'click'. Once you start 'clicking' it can be very enjoyable and might just change your direction.

 

[Mouthwash]

To me that sounds like the drugs are available, but you have to pay out of pocket. My adderall without insurance is 130 CAD / month. I have insurance so I pay about 30. Your doctor may not be aware of this, but pharmacists would be. I would talk to them about your options. From the health ministry,

I paid out of pocket for my Ritalin. Also, I need a doctor's prescription to get any drug of that sort.

Vyvanse is very similar to Adderall. It's amphetamines, but not the same mix as adderall, and not as liable to be abused.

Thank you, I will look into it.

Mania can be advantageous provided you can channel it effectively.

Yeah, that's not going to happen... I either wind up playing CKII, rereading comics for the thousandth time or just literally pacing for hours on end.

 

[Kozmos]

Well sounds like you have problems with procrastination then, though I guess you could argue it's part of the ADHD. I certainly understand that well enough, so here's what helped me: meditation, a little exercise, pomodoro timers and having separate clothes for 'work' activities. Sometimes I even put boots on at home, so slacking off isn't at all comfortable.

 

[Synobun]

You don't need to be good at math to be good at statistics.

It seems like you'd respond best to a tutor, in either case. Not sure about Israel, but you can get an okay-ish tutor here for $20/hr.

 

[The_J]

As suggested: Get a problem which you want to solve. That works often best.
Got my best insights into some problems while drying to understand the backgrounds of some algorithms.
Wiki simple English also sometimes helped .

Can I threadjack this? I am also seriously considering how I can improve my maths. I have studied maths to age 18 and used some statistics in my computational biology career but am pretty lost trying to follow the algorithms in some papers such as [1] and [2]. Do you have any suggestions about how to get to that sort of level? I am expecting it to take some time and potentially some money.

[1] http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/bimj.200900028/full
[2] http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1541-0420.2010.01391.x/full

Did a quick look at the abstracts (bioinformatician here), would honestly not bother, unless it's your exact research field. Seems like quite some advanced stuff, would leave it to the pros in the field.

EDIT: No idea what the biggest problem with the math for you is, but for me it's always that I cannot easily read the formulas. If I see a sum sign, then my brain just shuts down.
If I really need to understand a formula, I need to sit down and slowly transform it into code (so e.g. the sum sign becomes a for loop which sums up the variables), then I can read it. That helps me a lot with understanding the algorithms.

 

[Ferocitus]

Math is not simply a "course of study." Anyone who believes that shouldn't be teaching it...

I live it, I don't teach it.

You don't start in maths by asking for advice about pocket protectors on
internet forums, which is what you sound like at the moment.

I think you would get a lot out of a 1st year subject usually taught
through the Department of Philosophy or similar. Over here it's often
referred to as "Critical Thinking". It contains the elements of logic
and several other components.

I also recommend that you start with learning truth tables.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth_table
They are extremely useful in many fields and you should be able to learn
them on your own. If you can get handle those, you might be able to handle
higher pure maths. Otherwise, try something else.