Lee Kuan Yew dies at 91

[Snorrius]

While in Greece where we have democracy we prosper and the "authoritarian" Singapore suffers.

aelf is the typical Leftist. You can recognise them when they start whining about how are they oppressed (while they are not) and how bad everything outside while, in fact, they confuse their interior with exterior. When aelf will taste a bit of Gulag instead of leisure walks along the Orchard street, then we start talking.

 

[aelf]

I actually sort of agree, it's easy to talk about civil liberties and democracy and what not being the most important things, and saying it's better to live in Greece than Singapore, when you are richer than 6 out of 7 billion people. A lot of people in this world would prefer stability and peace and a sound economic policy, even at the cost of a few civil liberties (even though few people are usually affected by this). They're nice to have, for sure, but since our world is imperfect, trade-offs have to be made.
Plus, democracy does not equal civil liberties, and most democracies are so only on the surface (and they're not necessarily in the third world).

The most important factor in determining a good government is its intelligence and its intentions. Cleptocracies and idiocracies (for lack of a better term) are bad, and terrible when combined (like in Ukraine right now). LKY's government was the opposite, despite its authoritarian streak (indeed I think LKY basically had the same idea as I do)

Like I said, you don't get to choose what suits you when it suits you. We know LKY's government was on the whole not too bad only in hindsight. It could have turned out differently.

I'm not saying that it didn't work out well enough so far or that the man didn't have his strengths. I'm saying we shouldn't take civil liberties lightly just because it's been okay so far for a country of a few million people to trade some of them away for economic security.

aelf is the typical Leftist. You can recognise them when they start whining about how are they oppressed (while they are not) and how bad everything outside while, in fact, they confuse their interior with exterior. When aelf will taste a bit of Gulag instead of leisure walks along the Orchard street, then we start talking.

I think you're confused. I'm not the one singing praises of authoritarianism. So I'm not sure why I should be the one in the gulag? Democracies are more known for their gulags now?

In fact, some people did get sent to our version of the gulags under Lee Kuan Yew. Maybe his faithful should taste a bit of "Gulag" before they start talking?

 

[Snorrius]

I think you're confused. I'm not the one singing praises of authoritarianism. So I'm not sure why I should be the one in the gulag? Democracies are more known for their gulags now?

Because you are talking about you neither know, neither understand. Living in Singapore is not called "oppression". At the best one can be bored living there, but Singapore is still very lovely place comparing, say, to Kuwait. Singapore has Marina-bay and Orchard street, so I do not really understand what you are unhappy with. You are lucky you have a quite limited democracy, or else you could end up as guys in Ukraine -- jumping on main square and having Sentosa annexed by Indonesia. Your outlook is purely the matter of your internal disposition, there is no objective reasons to be upset.

 

[aelf]

So are you going to tell me what thinking that democracy is better has to do with needing to taste the gulag, Snorrius?

 

[christos200]

Look, I like democracy and civil rights and everyone does but at certain cases you cannot give them to some nations. For example, look at Syria and Iraq. The people are not ready for democracy yet at those places. Do you expect a democracy to work in places where the first thing Sunnis/Shia think is how to exterminate the Shia/Sunnis? They must first gain national unity, stability, proper education and a good economy. Only then should they gradually be given civil liberties and eventually democracy. Otherwise, they would end up like Libya (so much for democracy after overthrowing the 'bad' Gaddafi).

In the case of Greece, it is a matter of populists getting electing and the fact that elected politicians do not have the backbone to break the client system. They do not dare to face the trade unions, which instead of protecting the rights of the workers they protect the rights of their political clients, they do not dare to face the fact that Greece has a huge public sector and that many of those employed were clients of the political parties (rousfeti, as it is known in Greece, which means you vote for a politician and he gives you or your children a job in the public sector) and they do not dare to make reforms which would break with the past. So, this leads the nation to being dependent on foreign aid and our pride has been injured a thousand times.

An other case is Singapore, a multiethnic city state with a very real communist danger surrounded by hostile nations, that could end up badly despite it's economic prosperity. Lee Kuan Yew gave it stability, maneuvered excellently in the diplomatic field and allowed the economy to prosper.

So, in some cases, authoritarianism is needed. Authoritarianism like in the case of Singapore, not like North Korea. A non corrupt and effective strong government whose goal is to give stability, law and order and a good economy to it's citizens. Later on, those states may be able to become democracies.

In any case, I do not believe in the superiority of any form of government. It depends on the facts and situation of each nation. Although, I have to say, my ideal form of government would be Plato's Republic, which is utopian and unfortunately will not happen.

 

[Snorrius]

So are you going to tell me what thinking that democracy is better has to do with needing to taste the gulag, Snorrius?

I think you should taste what you are talking about. You talk about "oppression" -- why do not you try some real oppression -- not just being bored and having urge to write on the Internet how oppressed you are? You are writing about democracy -- why do not you visit SAR or Ukraine to look what societies which try to follow it looks like?

 

[LamaGT]

Like I said, you don't get to choose what suits you when it suits you. We know LKY's government was on the whole not too bad only in hindsight. It could have turned out differently.

I'm not saying that it didn't work out well enough so far or that the man didn't have his strengths. I'm saying we shouldn't take civil liberties lightly just because it's been okay so far for a country of a few million people to trade some of them away for economic security.

Precisely. The ideal government would be completely free and highly capable as well as extremely altruistic for its people. Unfortunately, this rarely happens.
In my mind however, economic security takes precedence over some abstract civil liberties. Actually, it's like that in everyone's brain, it's pure survival instinct. It's just that Westerners have the luxury of not knowing what political instability and poverty mean, and as such think that civil liberties are the absolute priority for a society.
Also I think your conception of "oppression of civil liberties" is rather extreme, in most cases living in a state that trumps on the freedom of speech functionally means nothing for the average citizen.

 

[jackelgull]

Yes, but the lack of government accountability in an authoritarian state gets annoying. It means that a nation must be committed to a course whether it is the right course or not. LKY's government is praised only because it used its power for the right policies to help the economy. Had the policies not done what they did, LKY would be another brutal incompetent dictator in a world full of them. For every authoritarian success story there are several authoritarian nightmares. And the undervaluation of Civil liberties is troubling to me, but I get it. Poverty is the worse form of oppression, as Ghandi would say.

 

[Tee Kay]

Only a Westerner (or well, I suppose, a Russian) could argue that democracy and civil liberties are merely abstract concepts.

I mean, autocrats in the Not-West might try to argue so, but if they were really just abstract they wouldn't fear them so much now would they?

In my mind however, economic security takes precedence over some abstract civil liberties

For those who've had their civil liberties infringed upon from corruption, repression, etc in economically insecure countries they're anything but abstract.

It's just that Westerners have the luxury of not knowing what political instability and poverty mean, and as such think that civil liberties are the absolute priority for a society.

As a non-Westerner, I can tell you plenty of non-Westerners value civil liberties very highly, precisely because theirs are so routinely trampled upon.

Also I think your conception of "oppression of civil liberties" is rather extreme, in most cases living in a state that trumps on the freedom of speech functionally means nothing for the average citizen.

It means they can speak up and be heard when their livelihoods are threatened. Not something to be lightly dismissed.

Poverty is the worse form of oppression, as Ghandi would say.

And made worse by lack of opportunities, lack of government/corporate accountability, lack of civil liberties.

 

[Crime Doesn't Pay]

Yes, but the lack of government accountability in an authoritarian state gets annoying. It means that a nation must be committed to a course whether it is the right course or not. LKY's government is praised only because it used its power for the right policies to help the economy. Had the policies not done what they did, LKY would be another brutal incompetent dictator in a world full of them. For every authoritarian success story there are several authoritarian nightmares. And the undervaluation of Civil liberties is troubling to me, but I get it. Poverty is the worse form of oppression, as Ghandi would say.

I believed proverty is under-reported in Singapore. I don't think the government tracks proverty well but don't quote me on this.

I would appericate it if the Singaporean posters could comment on this.

 

[Masada]

You know, all this talk about Singaporeans just not valuing democracy and civil liberties ignores that LKY ran on a platform that promoted both. So really, this whole narrative relies on the view that Singaporeans voted for LKY despite his platform.

 

[Snorrius]

Only a Westerner (or well, I suppose, a Russian) could argue that democracy and civil liberties are merely abstract concepts.

There are certainly tangible liberties out there but they do not necessarily go along with democracy and egalitarianism. The more "democratic" and egalitarian your nation, the less actual freedoms you have. And a freedom to solemnly vote for this or other talking head or Leftist party -- is not really "liberty" or "freedom" to be really desired.

Now, the ideal of democracy as presented by Leftism is indeed a pure abstract concept which neither attainable, neither desirable.

 

[Crime Doesn't Pay]

Speaking of flip-flopping, perhaps the most damning fact about his political career was how he changed his tack completely once he was in power. He was pro-unions and a fiery advocate of free speech when he was in the opposition. Once he took power, though, all that changed, as you know well enough.

Did Lee Kuan Yew have left wing views earlier on?

 

[Cutlass]

There are certainly tangible liberties out there but they do not necessarily go along with democracy and egalitarianism. The more "democratic" and egalitarian your nation, the less actual freedoms you have. And a freedom to solemnly vote for this or other talking head or Leftist party -- is not really "liberty" or "freedom" to be really desired.

Now, the ideal of democracy as presented by Leftism is indeed a pure abstract concept which neither attainable, neither desirable.

Black is white. Got it.

 

[aelf]

I think you should taste what you are talking about. You talk about "oppression" -- why do not you try some real oppression -- not just being bored and having urge to write on the Internet how oppressed you are? You are writing about democracy -- why do not you visit SAR or Ukraine to look what societies which try to follow it looks like?

You mean I should try some "real oppression" brought about by authoritarian regimes in order to appreciate authoritarianism more? Got it.

 

[aelf]

Did Lee Kuan Yew have left wing views earlier on?

Quite. See this post for a bit of evidence.

 

[Crime Doesn't Pay]

Ah. I missed the socialist bit.

 

[Crime Doesn't Pay]

'If I have to shoot 200,000 students to save China from another 100 years of disorder, so be it.'
http://yoursdp.org/news/lky_supports_tiananmen_massacre/2004-08-20-3746

 

[LamaGT]

Only a Westerner (or well, I suppose, a Russian) could argue that democracy and civil liberties are merely abstract concepts.

I mean, autocrats in the Not-West might try to argue so, but if they were really just abstract they wouldn't fear them so much now would they?



For those who've had their civil liberties infringed upon from corruption, repression, etc in economically insecure countries they're anything but abstract.



As a non-Westerner, I can tell you plenty of non-Westerners value civil liberties very highly, precisely because theirs are so routinely trampled upon.



It means they can speak up and be heard when their livelihoods are threatened. Not something to be lightly dismissed.



And made worse by lack of opportunities, lack of government/corporate accountability, lack of civil liberties.

We have differing concepts of civil liberties. When I say civil liberties, I mean things that in authoritarian states usually lack to varying degrees. Mainly the freedom of speaking against the government.
You're talking about corruption and its terrible effects on society, on which I wholly agree. However, corruption has nothing to do with the system of government. Singapore is indeed a case of an "unfree democracy" where corruption is virtually absent (it's like 3rd in CPI)

 

[Snorrius]

Black is white. Got it.

I am just telling you: black is black, white is white. It is you who believes otherwise, so when someone says how things are, you are naturally amazed. But it is not a rocket science to add two and two and come to conclusion that democracy and egalitarianism do not go well with liberty. It just takes a little thought.