Legalize it ?

Legalize Marijuana

  • Yes

    Votes: 96 64.4%
  • No

    Votes: 40 26.8%
  • Yes but not for smoking

    Votes: 5 3.4%
  • yes but only for smoking

    Votes: 2 1.3%
  • Toaster

    Votes: 1 0.7%
  • Radioactive monker drug dealers make too much money!

    Votes: 5 3.4%

  • Total voters
    149
MobBoss said:
Well, its not all that simple really. I will explain why in a bit. As to the number of being being held - I honestly have no idea. In Washington most of your possession charges are just simple misdemeanors with fines instead of jail time. I think you have to have over a certain amount to face any real time in the slam for production and intent to sell/distribution.

That's my sense for most states, but surely there are some people in prison just as a result for marijuana.

MobBoss said:
As for the explanation - just because the feds say its now legal, it is still up to the states to alter their laws. In the case of alchohol prohibition it took decades for this to be changed in some states. Hell, when I was a kid in Arkansas, there were still counties in which alcohol sales were prohibited and that was in the 70s and 80s. It may still be that way.

This comes down to odd situations where something is against fed law, but legal in a state. Example: the medical MJ law I mentioned earlier is a state law...but there is no fed law on it. Thus, you could still be arrested by the Feds (ATF, FBI) and convicted in a federal court for growing medical MJ while it being perfectly legal under state law.

We're on the same page fact-wise, that's why I specified federal law. Given DoJ enforcement, a state could totally erase their marijuana criminalization laws and residents of that state would simply face greater DEA law enforcement resources.

Are you a federalist sort or a states' rights type?
 
IglooDude said:
Are you a federalist sort or a states' rights type?

I tend to be more of a states right person. I am not happy with how large our fed presence has gotten and imho the fed government is only there to provide for certain things. Certainly not to be "Uncle Sugar".
 
ComradeDavo said:
Ever smoked a joint? It's not that big a deal really. Makes you feel a bit different for a while. Like when you have a few beers. Don't see why that should be illegal when beer drinking isn't.
or like when you've listened to some really good music, read a really good book. Not much different from religion (or any kind of philosophical system), all are mind altering substances.
 
My vote would be to legalize it.

The most pressing question, though, is, 'why is it not legal?' Theoretically, if you can determine why it is not legal and then subvert those forces, then legalization should be a foregone conclusion.

Now, after much thinking about this issue, I am decidedly unsure. Originally, pot was made illegal for a couple reasons. In the 1930's when States first began criminalizing marijuana middle America did not fully understand the drug. To them marijuana was just another in a list of readily available mind-altering substances like cocaine, opium and alcohol. The importance of the national prohibition on alcohol is important. The first state laws criminalizing marijuana were passed during the prohibition on alcohol. Without much scientific inquiry to prove to disprove potential benefits of marijuana, the campaign to ban it essentially became a propaganda war.

There were many big business interests that supported the ban on marijuana. These included a variety of pharmaceutical, textile, and cigarette companies. Most notable amongst those siding with a ban was William Randolph Hearst, who had significant interests in several lumber companies and was afraid of competition from Hemp-producing firms in the manufacture of paper. In fact, most of the support for the ban amongst big businesses revolved around the competitive threat that hemp presented, and had nothing to do with the effects of smoking the drug for recreational purposes.

The propaganda was presented in print, radio and even motion picture form (someone previously mentioned the near unwatchable "Reefer Madness"). For the government this dovetailed nicely with the campaign against cocaine and opium which was perpetrated only a decade or two earlier.

At first, the war against marijuana was conducted with taxes. After several rounds of judiciary haggling, this eventually morphed into state propagated criminalization before the Supreme Court finally approved it as a Schedule I drug in the 1970's and a formal federal ban was enacted.

However, many objective studies in recent years have shown marijuana use to be significantly less debilitating than alcohol use, and medically less harmful than both tobacco and alcohol.

Along with these studies and the resurging popularity of the drug have come significant (sometimes successful) attempts to legalize or at least decriminalize pot. A multitude of physicians have come forward saying that marijuana can be used medically to help treat pain, especially with diseases such as cancer, glaucoma, etc. Even law enforcement officers and the justice department have acknowledged that decriminalizing pot would help lessen their load by drastically decreasing ancillary crime associated with underground pot use, allow them to work on more serious matters, and free up jail space.

However, virtually all large firms in the United States have blanched against supporting such measures. Many directly oppose decriminalization. The reason is easy to deduce. Firms fear a loss in productivity if marijuana is legalized. Surely, many would prohibit pot smoking on and around firm property, but there would be little recourse against someone that smoked before coming to the office. For accomplished smokers, it is not hard to disguise the effects of marijuana use. At best, they could implement drug tests as a condition of employment. At the very best, these firms would be reimbursed or gain a tax break for imposing mandatory drug testing. Regardless, there would be a definite cost to big business to implement the tests. Furthermore, the currently employed methods of testing can be circumvented without much cost or effort.

The problem is complicated when combined with a myriad of pharmaceutical companies that vehemently oppose decriminalizing measures because of the competitive threat marijuana would present to many OTC and prescription drugs.

Finally, if you throw in the social do-gooders, and those who present the legitimate fears of users driving while stoned and the difficulties presented in detecting such use, the support against decriminalization is overwhelming.

In essence, the fight to legalize marijuana is about money (as are most things). Those who support legalization are a rag-tag group of growing cooperatives from Western states and grass roots support from around the country. Very simply, marijuana legalization does not have enough big businesses in its favor.

Of course, the government would undoubtedly make more money through the taxation of marijuana, but that argument is misleading. Legislators don't care about how much money the government makes. The government already makes enough money to support their endeavors. Legislators only care about being reelected. And while a marijuana tax would help the federal reserve, it would not help legislators get reelected. The campaigns and salaries of our legislators are paid for by the Mercks, Pfizers, and Bayers.

In the end, marijuana legalization needs more influential forces on its side. I am particularly curious about the silence from the tobacco companies on this issue. I would assume that with their competitive and economies of scale advantages in terms of brand placement, distribution and packaging (specifically rolling), they would be more in favor of the proposition. However, perhaps the beat-down the government gave them in the not so distant past is still echoed by their silence. On the other hand, people hate the big tobacco companies for some reason so it might be best for them not to be so vocal on this issue.

Ultimately, without more financial support and at least a few influential power brokers on their side, the legalization campaign still has a long way to go.

Damnit...just missed 4:20.

Sorry for the book...
 
MobBoss said:
Now wait a minute. It sounds like you are equating smoking a joint with a religious experience.:lol:

Well, the rastafarians often smoke joints whilst studying the bible.
 
Narz said:
or like when you've listened to some really good music, read a really good book. Not much different from religion (or any kind of philosophical system), all are mind altering substances.

I imagine that smoking a joint would be much like listening to the genius of John Coltrane.:D
 
we call it "pittn" around here.
I say legalise it. I some ot occasionelly, i admit i would smoke it more if i had better "contacts" But i'm too big of a sissy to drive at night looking for a dealer...
btw, been to Amsterdam, smoked one, got back on train with a dozen others premade (i still can't roll it, i have to ask the people to roll it for me :lol: )
and had some fun seeing comedy shows. (never listen to syntesisers when on a high :rofl: ) but now i can't get any. school's out , you know.
So legalise it. but beware, guys like me are going to become a lot more relaxt :rofl:
 
MobBoss said:
Sorry, but there is simply no way support is that high. When I see stuff like this, the more and more I am starting to feel that polls are just whack and dont mean a thing.

Just curious, but what is your personal belief (ballpark guess) as the the percent of American voters who would vote to legalize it, given the option?

The majority of states have allowed medicinal marijuana. Sadly, our government does not listen to it's people, and voted down a bill last year that would have stopped the federal government for prosecuting users who are abiding by these state laws. In other words, while most states have legalized medicinal use, they can still be prosecuted by the federal gov.

In some cases, they refused to even let the results of votes be released, until the courts intervened:

RESULTS ARE OUT: MARIJUANA INITIATIVE PASSES

Hill Republicans, Who Blocked D.C. Vote Tally, Vow Measure Won't Become Law

District voters overwhelmingly approved a measure last fall to legalize the medical use of marijuana, according to results released yesterday, but congressional Republicans again vowed that the initiative would not become law.

Congress had forbidden city officials to even count the votes until a federal judge intervened last week; the results released yesterday showed that the initiative was approved 69 percent to 31 percent. Since 1996, similar measures have been approved in six states and are in effect in four of them.

Initiative 59 would change D.C. drug laws to permit the possession, use, cultivation and distribution of marijuana if recommended by a physician for serious illness.


While medicinal marijuana is a far cry from complete legalization, it does go to prove that what the public wants, and what the government does are often two very different things.

At least 12 states had decriminalized marijuana as of 2004. They can't legalize it, because the gov't won't allow it. Instead, they make marijana the absolute lowest priority of law enforcement (IE: Jaywalking is a higher priority).

IMO, it's not the American public that is so adamantly against marijuana...it's the government. I don't think that the majority of the US wants it completely legal at this point...but it's been slowly heading in that direction for a long time.
 
shadow2k said:
Just curious, but what is your personal belief (ballpark guess) as the the percent of American voters who would vote to legalize it, given the option?

The majority of states have allowed medicinal marijuana.

Incorrect. Only 11 states allow medical Marijuana for medicinal use. They are Alaska, California, Colorado, Maine, Montana, Nevada, Oregon, Washington, Hawaii, Vermont and Rhode Island. 11 is NOT a majority of the states.

Sadly, our government does not listen to it's people, and voted down a bill last year that would have stopped the federal government for prosecuting users who are abiding by these state laws. In other words, while most states have legalized medicinal use, they can still be prosecuted by the federal gov.

While medicinal marijuana is a far cry from complete legalization, it does go to prove that what the public wants, and what the government does are often two very different things.

Once again, I am not convinced that this is an issue a majority of people want or even care about for that matter.

At least 12 states had decriminalized marijuana as of 2004. They can't legalize it, because the gov't won't allow it. Instead, they make marijana the absolute lowest priority of law enforcement (IE: Jaywalking is a higher priority).

Another misleading and false statement. To decriminalize means to make it legal. Its still not legal for widespread use, even in the 11 states allowing medicinal usage.

IMO, it's not the American public that is so adamantly against marijuana...it's the government. I don't think that the majority of the US wants it completely legal at this point...but it's been slowly heading in that direction for a long time.

Now wait...if you say here that you dont think the majority wants it completely legal, then how is the government not following the people's wishes?:lol:
 
No, make it a top-class crime that deserves Capitol Punishment. It destroys workers, and does not help society. Freedom is of no importance when the country is on the line.

Kill the druggies. Eliminate them mercilessly. Drugs have no right to be pssed around the world.
 
MobBoss said:
Incorrect. Only 11 states allow medical Marijuana for medicinal use. They are Alaska, California, Colorado, Maine, Montana, Nevada, Oregon, Washington, Hawaii, Vermont and Rhode Island. 11 is NOT a majority of the states.

I have no clue where I got that number. I must have misread something.

Once again, I am not convinced that this is an issue a majority of people want or even care about for that matter.



Another misleading and false statement. To decriminalize means to make it legal. Its still not legal for widespread use, even in the 11 states allowing medicinal usage.

I'm not sure convincing you really matters in the overall scheme of things. When over 1/3rd of the pop wants to completely legalize it, and an even higher amount want it for medical purposes...it might be that some people think it's important enough to hold a vote. Even if you don't agree.

Decriminalization means to remove or reduce the criminal classification of (or penalties for). So no, it's not misleading or false at all. It's the exact legal term that these states use for it, and for good reason.



Now wait...if you say here that you dont think the majority wants it completely legal, then how is the government not following the people's wishes?:lol:

The snippet I posted was the reasoning behind that. Voters overwhelmingly approved the use of medical marijuana, and the gov't refused to even count the votes. The next day, the number of people shown to have voted on the issue was ZERO...despite the fact that thousands of people clearly remember having voted on it the day before. It took a judge's ruling to release the results. The gov't didn't care what the people wanted, only what they wanted.

Not only that, but even though several states have either approved medical use of the drug, or straight out decriminalized it, the federal government does not listen. They can and do still charge people under federal law with criminal charges for use of medical marijuana, even though those states have voted to legalize it.

Any government that has to be forced by a judge to recognize legal voting results sounds like it really doesn't care which way people vote, they'll simply do what they want regardless...unless someone steps up to stop their unconstitutional behavior.

Seeing how they ignore the laws passed by states, and charge and convict people anyway, again...seems like they really don't care what the people in those states want.
 
Tycoon101 said:
No, make it a top-class crime that deserves Capitol Punishment. It destroys workers, and does not help society. Freedom is of no importance when the country is on the line.

Kill the druggies. Eliminate them mercilessly. Drugs have no right to be pssed around the world.

You've gone from devout catholic to plain evil. :eek:
 
Tycoon101 said:
No, make it a top-class crime that deserves Capitol Punishment. It destroys workers, and does not help society. Freedom is of no importance when the country is on the line.

Kill the druggies. Eliminate them mercilessly. Drugs have no right to be pssed around the world.

Make religiona top class crime that deserves capitol punishment. It destroys nations and does not help society. Freedom is of no importance when humanity is on the line.

Kill all the beleivers. Eliminate them mercilessly. Religion has no right to be passed around the world.:rolleyes:
 
shadow2k said:
I'm not sure convincing you really matters in the overall scheme of things. When over 1/3rd of the pop wants to completely legalize it, and an even higher amount want it for medical purposes...it might be that some people think it's important enough to hold a vote. Even if you don't agree.

Well, while I might disagree on the actual number of support, I will completely agree to putting it up to a vote. In fact most of the states that approved medicinal MJ use did so by state referendum - that means the people voted on it directly. I have no problem with that at all.

Decriminalization means to remove or reduce the criminal classification of (or penalties for). So no, it's not misleading or false at all. It's the exact legal term that these states use for it, and for good reason.

Uhm...no..its not the "exact" legal term at all. I remind you, I work in the legal field. The "exact" legal term of decriminalize is to make something legal. Perhaps the word you are looking for it mitigation. That means to make an offense less serious.

The snippet I posted was the reasoning behind that. Voters overwhelmingly approved the use of medical marijuana, and the gov't refused to even count the votes.

Overwhelmingly? You have the election results and can prove this? Looking it up, lets take California for example. Propisition 215 approving medical marijuana use only passed by a 56% vote. That is NOT overwhelming support. Is it a majority? Sure. Overwhelming? Nope. In fact, most of the states that have voted on this show support in the 50% range. One exception was those ganja smoking Hawaiians who gave it a 60% vote :lol:

So, support for medical use? Sure. Overwhelming support? Nah.

Not only that, but even though several states have either approved medical use of the drug, or straight out decriminalized it, the federal government does not listen. They can and do still charge people under federal law with criminal charges for use of medical marijuana, even though those states have voted to legalize it.

Once again, no state has decriminalized it and made non-medical marijuana use legal - NOT A SINGLE ONE. Every state still charges people with possession...every single one. I see it practically every day where a soldier gets busted for drug possession and its most often MJ.

Any government that has to be forced by a judge to recognize legal voting results sounds like it really doesn't care which way people vote, they'll simply do what they want regardless...unless someone steps up to stop their unconstitutional behavior.

Unconstitutional behavior? WTH are you talking about? The Supreme Court sided with the Executive branch in a lawsuit over the issue. It ruled that the US Government can indeed arrest people on federal charges regardless of state law. End of story.

Seeing how they ignore the laws passed by states, and charge and convict people anyway, again...seems like they really don't care what the people in those states want.

Here: http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/06/06/scotus.medical.marijuana/ read it for yourself. Here is the headline: Supreme Court allows prosecution of medical marijuana.
 
MobBoss said:
Well, while I might disagree on the actual number of support, I will completely agree to putting it up to a vote. In fact most of the states that approved medicinal MJ use did so by state referendum - that means the people voted on it directly. I have no problem with that at all.



Uhm...no..its not the "exact" legal term at all. I remind you, I work in the legal field. The "exact" legal term of decriminalize is to make something legal. Perhaps the word you are looking for it mitigation. That means to make an offense less serious.

Alright, I'm not a lawyer. But that's what it's called the majority of the time, because the word, as defined outside of a legal dictionary, is defined as I stated. I don't really see the point in arguing the semantics of it though.

Fact is that certain states have passed laws that greatly reduced penalties associated with small amounts of marijuana being in one's possession. Some even going so far as to dictate to what amount the actual enforcement of these laws would be pursued.

Now if you don't want to call it "decriminalization", that's fine I guess. But if I pop open a dictionary, that's the term that would be used. And that's why people use it to describe those actions. Trying to make me seem as if I'm intentionally lying about it is just silly. I'd assume you have some better argument against it.


Overwhelmingly? You have the election results and can prove this? Looking it up, lets take California for example. Propisition 215 approving medical marijuana use only passed by a 56% vote. That is NOT overwhelming support. Is it a majority? Sure. Overwhelming? Nope. In fact, most of the states that have voted on this show support in the 50% range. One exception was those ganja smoking Hawaiians who gave it a 60% vote :lol:

So, support for medical use? Sure. Overwhelming support? Nah.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/local/daily/sept99/marijuana21.htm

69% in favor, over two-thirds. The link uses the exact same word I did, although it may not be the exact same source I quoted (I'm lazy today).


Once again, no state has decriminalized it and made non-medical marijuana use legal - NOT A SINGLE ONE. Every state still charges people with possession...every single one. I see it practically every day where a soldier gets busted for drug possession and its most often MJ.

http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v01.n276.a05.html

Decriminalization, as defined by the dictionary, being reducing the penalties...which they did for small amounts in your possession. Even changing it from a criminal, to a civil offense.

I don't want to play semantics here as well. Simply put, in these states, having a small amount of pot on you, or getting caught smoking it is akin to getting a parking ticket. Still illegal, yes. But they really don't care as much as one might like them to.

Unconstitutional behavior? WTH are you talking about? The Supreme Court sided with the Executive branch in a lawsuit over the issue. It ruled that the US Government can indeed arrest people on federal charges regardless of state law. End of story.

Here: http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/06/06/scotus.medical.marijuana/ read it for yourself. Here is the headline: Supreme Court allows prosecution of medical marijuana.

I wasn't talking about the federal charges that could be brought up. I was talking about how a legal voting process was completely ignored. The results were hidden from the public. And only after a judge's ruling were they made public...and law.

The federal charges that can be brought against medical marijuana users in states that have passed laws that allow it is what I consider the gov't not listening to it's citizens.

Two different things here, please don't confuse them.
 
shadow2k said:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/local/daily/sept99/marijuana21.htm

69% in favor, over two-thirds. The link uses the exact same word I did, although it may not be the exact same source I quoted (I'm lazy today).

Uhm...hate to bust your bubble...but that wasnt a state...it was the District of Columbia. Hehe. All bets are off legally where that zany place is concerned.

http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v01.n276.a05.html

Decriminalization, as defined by the dictionary, being reducing the penalties...which they did for small amounts in your possession. Even changing it from a criminal, to a civil offense.

I don't want to play semantics here as well. Simply put, in these states, having a small amount of pot on you, or getting caught smoking it is akin to getting a parking ticket. Still illegal, yes. But they really don't care as much as one might like them to.

Thats a good find. And I would agree that decriminalize in the sense of making a criminal offense a civil one would fit as well. But, having just dealt with a friend who received such a charge here in Washington state...thats one VERY expensive parking ticket...:lol:
 
Beyond North Carolina having reduced the penalty to a ticket, the police barely even pursue those who are selling it, except in gigantic quantities, or across state lines. We grow plenty of good pot here, thank you...keep your foreign crap out...unless it comes from Amsterdam.;)

In all seriousness, it grows so well here, the economic boon for the state were it made legal would be enormous, especially since the tobacco industry is beginning to suffer a bit.
 
The problem, politically, with legalizing pot is that whoever does it will be 'soft on drugs', and people in the US don't really like that, especially not the religious right.
 
MobBoss said:
Uhm...hate to bust your bubble...but that wasnt a state...it was the District of Columbia. Hehe. All bets are off legally where that zany place is concerned.



Thats a good find. And I would agree that decriminalize in the sense of making a criminal offense a civil one would fit as well. But, having just dealt with a friend who received such a charge here in Washington state...thats one VERY expensive parking ticket...:lol:

Not a state. Man, I'm really out of it today, leave me alone! I've even heard the case made that's it's not technically even part of the US :)

I think you get the idea though. Support for and against will vary of course from region to region. I think if a nationwide vote were held for medical marijuana, it would get approved...but complete legalization would get downed.

Heck, I think one state even tried to re-criminalize it at one point, but got overruled. I want to say Alaska, but I'm sure I'd be wrong, seeing my past history today.

No clue how much pot fines would be though. In my area of KS (Johnson County), even though the laws on the books can be harsh...you normally won't get more than a slap on the wrist for small amounts. Never seen anyone fined for it, just paying court costs, comm service, possible rehab, and some form of probation. Large amounts will get you tossed in jail for intent to distribute, and the laws regarding it are not friendly at all.
 
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