Let's Discuss Poland

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even we Viets had our terrible defeats! (though we kicked them out in the end)...

- Han rule for 1000 years
- French rule for 100 years

well, yea, thats the main ones. :)

there ain't any "immortal" civs, for better or wrose.

Whether what you are implying is true or not is beyond the point i am making, i think. I am merely correcting the incorrect notion of a fellow poster here that Poland never got taken out by one single guy until WWII- that is most categorically false.
 
Ignorant, uneducated, probably not most intelligent either.

Tell us when in the history Poland gave into any sort of demands, and prove to us that Poland lost all of the wars it fought.

Then I suggest that you either go back to school or commit suicide. The latter solution might be more appropriate for the better sake of mankind.

Moderator Action: Warned - Flaming. We don't tell people to commit suicide!
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
 
Actually the Poles are in the game already. Just look into the north and the south of continent maps... ;)

Now if TLO36 would stop complaining about everybody neglecting Poland and instead play more Civ he sure wouldn't have to ask dumb questions about playing Civ in SGs... ;)

Anyway, keep going. It's great fun following a utterly useless discussion...
 
Actually the Poles are in the game already. Just look into the north and the south of continent maps...

Now if TLO36 would stop complaining about everybody neglecting Poland and instead play more Civ he sure wouldn't have to ask dumb questions about playing Civ in SGs...

Anyway, keep going. It's great fun following a utterly useless discussion...

Actually the Poles are in the game already. Just look into the north and the south of continent maps...

HAHA, i love these jokes as tehre pure humour, not offensive.

Now if TLO36 would stop complaining about everybody neglecting Poland and instead play more Civ he sure wouldn't have to ask dumb questions about playing Civ in SGs...

HEY hey hey, you signed up on a drunk SG on another forum!

Anyway, keep going. It's great fun following a utterly useless discussion...

If i'm gone, then tehre's no point in this discussion. :lol:

You will find that to be most incorrect- Atilla most definitely conquered all of modern Poland, the mongols most definitely reduced Poland to a lame power and the Prussians singlehandedly beat the snot out of the Poles in the 1800s.

Did poland even exist at the time of Attila the hun? :lol:

And it was Prussia, Austria and Russia. I'm suprised you pointed out only prussia as it took the least landfrom poland out of the 3.
 
Ahh well the Eastern Europe is underrepresented thread is closed. So i picked up the last arguement for here:

At Spearthrower:
I honestly don't mind if he wants to disagree, but he has to play by the rules of using facts to do so, not pseudo-philosophical arguments.

Add to that these criticisms he added totally unnecessarily - none of them have anything to do with the debate at hand:

*********************
Repeated claims that my arguments were superficial and unsophisticated - yet he has not provided ANY argument whatsoever and furthermore, these 2 words are subjective opinions, not factual analysis. If he had provided factual support to show why my argument was superficial, then that would have been fair. The use of the word "unsophisticated" is just a baiting statement that's clearly not based on the reality of the post and is once again, entirely subjective.

Repeatedly instructing me to learn philosophy to engage in historical debate. Having studied history to BA level, I am shocked to learn that philosophy is a requirement - why did such a well known institution not inform me of this? () Aside from that, his logic was based around the principle he highlighted, to quote "my counter-argument is a valid, viz. it follows for the premises. My argument is sound too. The premises are true, and so is the conclusion." Wow, why don't you just vote yourself judge, jury and executioner all at once?

Amateur understanding of marking - obviously just a trolling statement made about a flippant summary, but funny when you consider my job.

Instructing me on what I need to do to pursue an academic career on a number of occasions.... when I already have an academic career!

*********************

None of the above were necessary except to try to achieve a rise, they did nothing to further his point, but instead sought to undermine my credibility. For these, I could have alerted a moderator to claim trolling.

The baiting was, I have to admit, nicely done.... but baiting it still was.

Further.... there have been no assertions made by Poppa, only criticisms. Criticisms based on opinion.


I simply ask people to click on Poppa's name and look at his posts to understand why I consider there ample evidence for trolling - it's hardly ad hominem when there is adequate proof.

Poppa Candy:

This confirms my suspicion. Most of the sources given above are unreliable from an academic point of view. No serious academic would rely on Wikipedia to support his claims. The following sources you gave are more reliable:

Quote:
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-28164/Poland
The Black Death 1346-1353: The Complete History, by Ole J. Benedictow.
Economy, Society, and Lordship in Medieval Poland 100-1250. by Piotr Gorecki
I am glad to see that finally you are heading towards the right direction. That is better, but I am afraid that this is not yet good enough. Now you need to say which passage from (at least one) of the above books support your breadbasket claim, and what is the conclusion you meant to draw. I very much doubt you will able to find the requisite evidence from reliable sources. Competent historians would limit themselves to claiming that Poland was at some point a major exporter of wheat. They would not go as far as claiming that Poland was the primary supplier of wheat for most European areas, as you loose original statement implies.

Note: I am restricting my attention to the “bradbasket” claim for the sake of simplicity and definiteness. But the general thought also applies to other superficial generalizations you have made in connection to Polish history.

Quote:
The Breadbasket of a country is a region which, because of richness of soil or advantageous climate, produces an agricultural surplus which is often considered vital for the country as a whole.
Again you are quoting Wikipedia, which is bad academic practice. (You also need to put quoted statement between brackets and furnish full bibliographic details, or else you run the risk of being accused of plagiarism by your peers). I will let it pass, for that particular definition you quote is indeed fine for my purposes. The problem is that Poland does not satisfy the Wikipedia definition that you have relied on. Poland’s agriculture surplus never was “vital” for Europe as a whole, for most European rural areas aimed at self-sufficiency and never imported grain from Poland. In order to prove your thesis, you need to give statistics showing that the majority of European urban and rural centers (say at least 60%) dependent for their survival on Poland’s agricultural surplus. Either that, or simply admit that you have misused the term “bradbasket” by making a superficial and unwarranted generalization.

Continue on little quote war spammers! ;)

Moderator Action: That thread was closed for a reason. It's not wise to continue it in another open thread.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
 
Double post, may as well use it to be ignorant.

POLAND LOL IZ TAHT WERE TEH TELETUBIES LIVES? LOLOLOLOLOL
 
I think that thread might have been closed because Spearthrower and Poppa were just flaming each other. If that is the case, then it might not be wise to bring the 'discussion' into here as well.

New arguing technique: Poland schmoland.
 
Whether what you are implying is true or not is beyond the point i am making, i think. I am merely correcting the incorrect notion of a fellow poster here that Poland never got taken out by one single guy until WWII- that is most categorically false.

just helping to prove your point. :)
 
Not Moscow itself, but it wasn't a Sunday morning walk to the local church either. :)

True. I'm not of a sort of nationalist (actually I'm a type of Pole, who is hated by his current government), I just like the idea of Poland in Civ, so dropped by and wrote a few words (not that it's some pressing matter), because what disturbs me most in this sort of discusions are historical misunderstandings (that goes for both - different points of view and common mistakes). :)

Oh, and it would be nice if Leader of Poland was Queen Hedwig, cause she was waaaaay better ruler (and more sexy) then those other guys commonly advertised :D

Cool, we pretty much agree then. I'm for the inclusion of Poland into the game myself.
Isn't your current government hated by most Poles anyway?
 
Cool, we pretty much agree then. I'm for the inclusion of Poland into the game myself.
Isn't your current government hated by most Poles anyway?

No, most poles just considers our government a grouping of national idiots...
 
As many have said, it was SO BIG, from the Vistula to the Volga to some degree, that they spent all fo their time running around keeping control, it was offten difficicult to exert outside influence.

To Volga?? Are you sure? I know you said to some degree, but what does that mean exactly? I've seen alot of Polish maps on this forum, but don't remember ever seeing Poland reaching Volga, maybe I'm just forgetful, but still.
 
To Volga?? Are you sure? I know you said to some degree, but what does that mean exactly? I've seen alot of Polish maps on this forum, but don't remember ever seeing Poland reaching Volga, maybe I'm just forgetful, but still.

Volga? ok i forgot, is it that river in ukraine or that one near the urals? :P

if it's the one with ukraine then yes we did control it.
 
OK.
I'm feeling generous tonight. So here we go:
THELASTONE36 is right! POLAND CAPTURED MOSCOW!!!!!
End of story.
 
^Vietnam did too! :joke:

at least Poland actually captured a major power's capital, even if it was done in a cheap or patehtic or stupid or unglorious way - Vietnam didn't do that at all. :)
 
Ahh well the Eastern Europe is underrepresented thread is closed. So i picked up the last arguement for here:

Continue on little quote war spammers! ;)

Please don't bring that discussion here, it is nothing but stupid bickering between two pompous asses, who are too full of themselves to admit the possibility that they might be wrong, this especially applies to Spearthrower. No offence meant, just my opinion.
 
Volga? ok i forgot, is it that river in ukraine or that one near the urals? :P

if it's the one with ukraine then yes we did control it.

Heh I'm not gonna write that you should probably know which one is the longest river in Europe... oh crap I already did.
It's not the one in Ukraine and its proximity to Urals is debatable.
 
Isn't your current government hated by most Poles anyway?

Well :rolleyes: it's complicated.

1)About 80-90% of Poles in the polls (:lol: ) think that Kaczynski is *THE* worst prime minister Poland ever had. And they make fun of him
Spoiler :
kontodc9.jpg


Our Prime Minister said that he doesn't have an account in a bank, because he's affraid of being blackmailed with defraudations, so his mother runs one for him. He lives with her and his cat, 58 years old and still single, but bashing gay men for "uselessness for the Nation" (LMAO)


... and his brother Lech, President of Poland:

Spoiler :
197nadeslanecc2.jpg


However...

2)His party won last elections, and it takes a people to win. Actually, it takes one rich priest running Radio Holy Mary to tell millions of old people listening to vote for "Law and Justice" because that's so kool name for a party, and above all - because everything apart that is liberal, and and liberals are (quote from "Nasz Dziennik" - newspaper, also run by him): "immoral people, false ideologists, disguised criminals, bandits, public thieves, degenerates, mafioso, socio-political bands, pseudo-teachers, people without personality, egoists, sons of Kingdom of Satan, their majesties, unlawfull elements, post-comunists, masons, enemies of catholicism, evil ones, wrongdoers, damned, spiders, oligarchs, pseudo-Poles, false-political right" (I made a reasearch at my studies on semantics of "liberals" in newspapers during the elections)



But he also needed to form a coalition with more radical parties:

Andrzej Lepper's peasant (Poland is still one of the countries with peasants instead of farmers, but the things change rapidly now, after joining EU) Self-defence Party:

Spoiler :
z2059809ggn0.jpg


... and Ultra-Catholic party - League of Polish Families, which leaders are Giertych family. Giertych Jr. was (he had been sacked) minister of education, trying to abolish teaching of theory of evolution in schools, and to impose compulsory catholic religion lessons with mark counting for overall education mean of marks.
Spoiler :
z3605650xar9.jpg


His father - Giertych Sr. is known for speaches in European Parliament against Germans, Jews, homosexuals and -also- Darwinism. They are descendants of Inter-War Polish diplomat Jędrzej Giertych, also known for his anti-semitism.
Spoiler :
z2584014gsh6.jpg


Yes, they are bunch of freaks, who won parl. elections in 2005, with 46% of votes, giving them 245 of 460 seats, and also presidential elections month later.

But here is the word of explanation about that:

It doesn't mean that 46% of Poles support them. Together they got 5,5 mln votes out of 27 mln possible. AND, actually, it was a surprise to all that Kaczynski brothers didn't form government together with conservative liberals (second place party - 24% votes) who they called "friends" for almost 2 years. 80% of people wanted them to work together. Instead we got populist and fundamentalist radicals.

Personally, I think that it's more complicated to say what ideology Poles actually do believe in. It's not true that all of the people are poorly educated, aggresive, Jew-hating, gay-bashing religious zealots (the Western stereotypical view of Poles). I'd rather say that it could be put like that:
-50% living in small [edit: towns] and villages, 50% living in the cities;
-95% declared as catholics. 40% practicing catholic actually, 60% close to atheism or agnosticism (probably only country with so many people "not believing but practicing" - to look good amongst neighbourhood)
-15% post-communist left, 20% neo-conservative, 25% radicals (fascist, communist, catholic fundamentalists), 40% hates politics and never goes to vote (they just think it's all around the same, and nothing would change).

The major problem is that the people, who believe that anything could be changed about Poland, are leaving for United Kingdom or other EU countries (mostly because of better jobs, better earnings, intolerance and rising power of stupid/authoritarian politicians in Poland).
To some degree the situation is similar to that in United States, although more radical and with more possible options. Currently it's like a struggle between two factions of same strenght - those looking back into the past, and those looking forward. That's all what is to be said about modern Poland, I think.
 
I can't believe people are still talking about his, why can't people just accept the facts, like talking about it is going to change the reality.

Fact is this, I'm an average American, I'm not like a lot of the people on here that know all kinds of junk about everything I know a little bit about what I find interesting,

Ninety-Nine percent of the people I know including myself don't even know what the heck poland is, all your average American knows about Poland is that there is a place called Poland in Europe.

Thats it, that's why its not added, it's an American game by Americans, Poland isn't that big of a market and 99% of people don't know jack about Poland.

Get over it, seriously.. they're running a business, Poland isn't important and there is absolutely no reason for them to add it from a business stand point.

Has there ever been a Poland? Seriously.

Maybe you should stop thinking about what is politically correct and start looking at it from a "BUSINESS" standpoint and you might get a glimpse of America, heck you might even start to understand what makes America so strong and help your cute little countries out when you get all growed up.

AMERICA WAS FOUNDED ON CAPITALISM.

There will never ever ever be a Poland in Civ, they will add Canada and Australia and prob Brazil and prob a few I'm not thinking of before they ever ever added Poland despite how many emails and crying you guys do at the firaxis doorstep.
 
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