Let's Discuss Poland

[marioflag]

Yeah, odd huh. I guess I should have titled the thread about something other than Poland so it would become a Poland thread. I'll give it another day, before I shut this one down.

Methos if every threadjacking about Poland outside this thread is deleted by mods, so that all discussion about Poland is made here, perhaps this thread could be one of the best ever created.

 

[Galatian]

I pity those that were taught to reject science in favor of ridiculous religious dogma. I pity them because they were undoubtedly taught as a child never to question religious Dogma. The mind once thirsty for knowledge becomes satisfied with empty answers such as "it is how god intended," and robbing children of a legitimate education and replacing it with religious dogma should be considered the greatest crime ever committed against humanity.

nothing to add

Europeans (and Canadiens and Australians and members of other progressive societies) on this forum will surely assert that religion is, by design, NOT integrated into their political systems, while it is heavilly integrated in ours.

Sorry to disappoint you from this one, but as a German citizen I have to admit that we are far away from having our constitutional given Secularization. Especially considering that one of our main parties is called the "Christian Democratic Union". But you are right that we don't have politicians who are justifying their politics with Jesus/God like Bush did in the Iraq war.

 

[Galatian]

I don't know, if rampant nationalism leading to complaints about Civ were true.. where are all the Serbians demanding their place?

Well they obviously developed a stronger national pride over the last few years. It is actually scary to always here from your neighbours that they consider everything we do as bs.

 

[tmarcl]

Why are American arch-Conservatives so hostile to the European Union? I am honestly puzzled.

Long story short, they believe the European Union represents the "Final Empire" mentioned in the book of Revelation, and thus, the rise of the Anti-Christ.

Of course, given that this would lead to Armageddon, and then to the 1000 yr reign of Christ, you'd think this would be something they'd support...


Marc

 

[Catharsis]

Spoiler :

OK, if people are going to talk about this, can we at least talk about generally accepted history?

History

Generally, Poland's official 'start' as a kingdom was in 966. As usual, these 'official' dates are a little arbitrary, but it is viewed as when Miesko I, a leader of a Slavic group the 'Poles', accepted Christianity.

Poland's leader, if it were included in Civ, should probably be Boleslav Chowbry (the Brave), Miesko's son. He conquered/united the areas we view pretty much as Poland today. At this point, Poland was a powerhouse in Eastern Europe.

Poland suffered a bad defeat to the Empire in 1031, but reformed under another great King, Casimir. Casimir's son (Boleslav the Daring) further strengthened Poland, and they were again a great power. Pope Gregory agreed to call Poland a Kingdom, and it became the Kingdom of Poland in 1076.

The 12th century started to see Poland lose its power, for the usual reason; internal fragmentation and fighting by the ruling family. Indeed, later, Poland would lose its status as a world power because of poor political control, but I get ahead of myself .....

Even if Poland had been united, it is hard to say if they could have staved off the disaster known as the Mongols, who crushed the Poles in 1241. The Mongol invasion had lasting effects -- the depopulation of Poland was so great that many Germans moved into Poland in the 13th Century.

Also in the 13th Century, one of the Polish Kingdoms invited the Teutonic Knights to help fight the Prussians, a pagan group on Baltic Coast. Unfortunately for the Poles, the cure was worse than the problem, and the Knights occupied a large part of Prussia. Then, war with Poland became a constant problem.

However, in the 14th Century Poland was again strong enough to expand east, as the Russian kingdoms were not really strong enough to resist.

The 14th Century was a good one for Poland. The key event probably was the unification of Poland under Ladislas I, and his son, Casimir the Great, another good choice as Poland's overall leader. Of course, all fo Europe was recovering fromthe Black Death, but Poland grew powerful.

1385 starts the Golden Age for Poland, as Poland formed a union with Lithuania (sharing kings. Formal union was 200 years away, however, after the Treaty of Lublin). This was for mutual support against the Teutonic Knights and the growing Russian (Moscovy) power in the East. However, something real bad happened also then ....

Casimir died without an heir, and Poland set up a Constitutional Monarchy. This may seem like a 'good thing', but the problem was that the Polish constitution gave too much power to the nobles relative to the king.

Before I go on, let me say that Poland's power came from its elite cavalry. The would march from the Vistula to the Carpathians, controlling large tracks of territory. However, this army form required unity with the nobles, and Polish cavalry was as good as anything Europe produced.

At his point, Poland/Lithuania was the premier state in Eastern Europe. Indeed, one could argue they were the greatest power in Europe, perhaps maybe not quite as powerful as Venice and a few others, but certainly up there.

In 1410, the Poles decisively defeated the Teutonic Knights, who ceded roughly half of Prussia to Poland, and the rest of Prussia became a client state.

From 1410 to 1585, Poland ruled virtually from the Vistula to modern day Ukraine, again with the cavalry being their key arm.

But the mid-16th century they had a problem. Their wonderful cavalry ran into their traditional tormenters, the Mongols. Even though the Crimean Tatars weren’t the power of Genghis Khan, they were a constant thorn to Poland and fought on and off for the next 200 years.

In 1573, they went to 'elect' a king for life, with all nobles appearing at Warsaw getting a vote. They chose Henry of Valois, the brother of Charles IX of France, a natural Catholic ally. However, Henry took the French crown instead a few months later when Charles died. At the time, most people felt that Poland was a richer and stronger power than France. Once again, the problems of a strong king emerged.

Poland also started to suffer Cossack Rebellions. The Cossacks went over to Russia as protection, and Poland also fought a long series of wars with its rising rival in the East.

Poland's power was broken by a series of events called 'The Deluge', usually viewed as 1655 1660 (but, as usual, hard dates are a bit unscientific). Poland faced a Cossack rebellion (which, unfortunately, was the beginning of the huge Cossack pogroms against the Jews that went on unrelenting for the next 250 years), and simultaneous invasion by Sweden and Russia.

But Poland was still a power, and, slowly, they defeated the Cossacks, the Russians, and the Swedes! They also defeated Prussia, but Prussia was given independence.

Once again, Poland found internal dissention during the Deluge a key problem. Some Poles allied with the various invaders.

Nonetheless, Poland was not a great power or perhaps even a secondary power. By now, Spain, France, England, Austria, Russia, and Sweden were far more powerful.

The final blow to Polish power cam from the rise of Prussia, as the former 'Prussia' became part of the rising power of Brandenberg. The new 'Prussia' became the central state in Germany, and between 1772 and 1795 Poland was split between Austria, Prussia, and mostly Russia.

Why didn't they fight? Poland's constitution allowed the Nobles too much freedom, and Poland couldn't go to war even under these circumstances without support from the nobles. Of course, the Russians controlled many of these nobles, and Poland gave up without a fight.

Poland, of course, was freed after WWI, since its tormentors (Prussia/Germany, Austria, and Russia at first) were not in position to fight it out.

But Poland would have a few more days in the sun ….

After the end of the Russian Civil war and the establishment of the Soviet Union, the new regime wanted to end the independence of the Poles that was imposed on them when they didn’t have the strength to fight it. But now, the new Soviets were looking at the new Poles and the defeated Germany and the fervor of spreading Communism after defeating the various forces trying to defeat them during the civil war became a key goal. One of the most important, underrated wars, the Polish Soviet war, was about to begin.

In 1918 and 1919, Poland defeated the Ukraine, as Poland tried to regain some of its historic Eastern territories. In February 1919, however, Poland was at war with Russia. Its pretty hard to state definitively what started it, as Poland tried to move East and Lenin tried to regain the former Russian lands. Conflict was inevitable. It was a very complex war (the Poles preferred the Bolsheviks to the Whites, for instance). Originally, Poland moved far into the east, getting into the Ukraine.

The key to the Soviet counter-attack was the defeat of Denikan (whites). The Soviet counterattack drove them back, all the way to the Vistula. Then, the ‘miracle of the Vistula’ a gap developed between the two attacking Soviet armies, and Poland counter-attacked again, and drove the Soviets back.

At the time of the armistice, Poland had the upper hand, but only slightly. Both sides claimed victory. However, the war is considered pivotal. Had the Soviet power, after defeating the whites, crushed Poland, they may have moved against the defeated Germany.

In WWII, Poland fought well. Poland was doomed by the fall of Czechoslovakia in WWII, leaving them pretty much undefendable. Poland inflicted a large number of casualties nonetheless on the Germans. And it was the Poles who broke the Enigma code, and gave the solution to the British. We can speculate how WWII would have turned out without the Polish mathematicians who broke the enigma secret.

Analysis

Poland was a great power for a long period. From the late 10th century until the 17th , Poland was a major power in Eastern Europe. They were a lesser power in the 12th and 13th century, and by the mid 17th they weren’t a great power probably. Clearly, when they merged with Lithuania they were a world power, and they had this status maybe for 200 years.

Why did Poland lose its power? Here, of course, we now go from recitation of history to opinion. Here is my opinion. The main problem seems to be that Poland’s power was based effectively on what we would think of a feudal basis. They had a powerful cavalry and a strong nobility that limited the power of its kings. With strong kings, they were quite powerful.

But the nearby states emerged from Feudalism, and developed strong middle classes and economies. They developed strong economies, had large rises in population and wealth, and technology developed. Spain in the 15th Century and Sweden in the 16th century revolutionized warfare, and developments were made in other countries. So, Poland did not so much as ‘get weaker’ at its core but it missed the powerful gains made by its neighbors. Furthermore, as a power in Eastern Europe, it suffered from issues that would impact the Habsburg power, revolts from ethnic groups (the Cossacks especially) and had to deal with a minority rule.

So, Austria, Russia, and Prussia-Brandenburg and Sweden emerged as powers, and Spain, France and England became even greater powers.

The final problem was that its governmental system couldn’t allow and accommodate the changes that Poland would have needed to make to grow as the other powers did. So, beset by Mongols, Cossacks, and powerful neighbors, with an internal government that was fractious, they became a minor power.



Do they belong is Civ? Maybe. People claiming they weren’t a power probably aren’t thinking about the medieval period where they were a powerhouse, and were a power as long as many of the Civ’s that are included. I’ve written about politics and military power (because it is my expertise), not about other fields like science and arts, which I leave to more learned people in these fields. My own view is that they are a good choice but not a ‘must include’ power like Rome.

Best wishes,

Breunor

Aww, you killed the thread with reasonable argument and historical knowledge. Curse youuu.

 

[Öjevind Lång]

Aww, you killed the thread with reasonable argument and historical knowledge. Curse youuu.

All the same, claims that Poland has at any point in history been the mightiest country in Europe are simply not true. And what exactly did the Poles leave as a heritage to world culture? I know that several months ago, in this debate that refuses to die, some Pole claimed that the Poles invented sauerkraut, but even if that is true, it isn't enough. Not even if you add that Copernicus was Polish and that Madame Curie was born in Poland.

Let me add that currently, a great number of Poles clearly do not only hate gays and Germans but also Jews, the EU (though that doesn't ekep them from accepting all the aid money from it) and, basically, just about everybody who isn't Polish. I hope the madness will pass.

 

[Rex rgis of Ter]

Let's not discuss it. I feel better that way.

 

[cybrxkhan]

woot! i just noticed another Poland thread! wheres TheLastOne...

 

[Öjevind Lång]

Let's not discuss it. I feel better that way.

OK. I will stay out of this now - promise.

 

[Methos]

All the same, claims that Poland has at any point in history been the mightiest country in Europe are simply not true.

Apparently I missed that statement. Did someone actually say that?

 

[SickCycle]

Where is poland and what does it do..

 

[Breunor]

All the same, claims that Poland has at any point in history been the mightiest country in Europe are simply not true. And what exactly did the Poles leave as a heritage to world culture? I know that several months ago, in this debate that refuses to die, some Pole claimed that the Poles invented sauerkraut, but even if that is true, it isn't enough. Not even if you add that Copernicus was Polish and that Madame Curie was born in Poland.

Let me add that currently, a great number of Poles clearly do not only hate gays and Germans but also Jews, the EU (though that doesn't ekep them from accepting all the aid money from it) and, basically, just about everybody who isn't Polish. I hope the madness will pass.

And I didn't say that they were the greatest power in Europe. The closest I said was 'At his point, Poland/Lithuania was the premier state in Eastern Europe. Indeed, one could argue they were the greatest power in Europe, perhaps maybe not quite as powerful as Venice and a few others, but certainly up there.'


Here, I'm saying I didn't think they were as powerful as Venice and a few others. That is what I say, right?

Well, I think my article is correct. If you don't think so, fine, that is your opinion. How many states in Europe were more powerful than the Poles in the mid-15th century in your opinion? (I'm not counting the Ottomans as European; if you do, they are clearly more powerful but not in the early 15th century when they got whalloped by Timur, but would be far more powerful at the end of the 15th century). I would probably put Venice, Castille, maybe another Spanish predecessor. I think Genoa was already too weak to put there. I would put Poland ahead of France, England, any single German state, Austria, or any Russian state. For England, the period after Henry V's death until the end of the War of the Roses saw them internally focused; France didn't really emerge as a power until after the Burgundian defeat. Indeed, the choice of France over Poland inthe 16th century was consideredby many a 'shock'.

Not everyone has to agree with my view, but I do think my positions are well reasoned.

Breunor

 

[hoopsnerd]

Here, I'm saying I didn't think they were as powerful as Venice and a few others. That is what I say, right?
Breunor

Venice isn't in the game either.

 

[Zhahz]

My only thought on this is that threads like "Poland threads" - that are generic and not BTS specific, should be moved to the general civ forum (or better yet deleted, but that's probably too much to hope for).

I have zero interest in the latest this civ/civic/leader/religion/should be in/should be out/whatever-other-personal-pet-item-that-has-nothing-to-do-with-gameplay threads and would prefer to only see BTS-related stuff in the BTS forum.

 

[TheLastOne36]

seeing how there are 32 or 34 civs in the game, and cow civs like the greeks, arabs and celts dominate tons of different group, (same with the Maya and Native Americans) i'd agree. But defenitaly near 75th place.

So you say....

http://www.polishnews.com/fulltext/h...history4.shtml

M. Kamil Dziewanowski writes in the first person as an eyewitness to history.

Links broken.

But i still wouldn't believe it. We charged the Panzers with our awesome minitanks!

What is the deal with Poland? Pride in one's culture is definitely good in my book, no doubt about that. But I must be presented with how exactly POLAND herself was ever a Major empire. Sure the HRE wasn't a powerful or long lasting empire

Poland was major in Europe. Look at a map of europe in the 17th century. A minor empire would not be that big.

And your wrong. HRE was a long lasting Empire. (a disorganized one at most) but Poland was still a longer lasting state.

The late 1700s / early 1800s seem to be the only time that Poland was especially strong in Europe from what I read on the not-always-reliable wikipedia.

That was when we were our strongest. But we were really strong (compared to every other nation in europe) in the middle ages.

But that's just the thing, isn't it... a Civ ought to be famous outside the knowledge of it's own people and/or have been a major player at some point in history to be included. Medicority with an occasional small flash of regional not doing to bad-ness doesn't cut it.

Would anyone know any od poland's history right after the Country came out of Communism, AND that whole Iron Curtein thing? And with Americans tending to have some uknown hatred to Poland?

maybe you impassioned Polish can see these points as well.

Then i'm a perfect example.

I'm Polish, Spanish, French, Italian and either danish or swedish. (my french family was originally Viking settlers)

I'm from Poland. I dont want Poland to be included in Civ, and I don't think it should be. Believe me, not all poles think their nation is or was among the most important world nations and not all vote for nationalists

See a map of your own country in the 17th century lmao.

Word to Poland's mother! (Russia)

Jack of you american!

Um... did he forget entirely about WWII? Or was that a big fascist lie to propagate Hitler's policies in Germany? Were all the invasions one big lie? Was there such a thing as Vichy French? Is America really a global superpower?!

Germany had the help of Russia.

So they've been around for a while. But um, what about Napoleon? Prussia? Let's not forget about USSR until 1991. How is this guy TheLastOne serious?

Prussia had help of Russia and Austria, We weren't a country at Napoleons time.

Hey... this might be slightly off-topic, but how often do you guys think TheLastOne edits the Wikipedia entry for "History of Poland?"

I tried to edit a soccer page ounce (a game in Copa America, was just editing the score cause Argentina just scored). It's so f***ing complecated. Hell i wouldn't.

Vietnam has a better history of resisting foreign invasion and i dont think we'll ever see them on Civ V or the next xpac 'Civ IV: Before the Club'.

No, thje vietnamese rainforest did that.

TheLastOne36 : why do you need to put canada down to make poland look important?

Someone was using Canada as an example.

Yes, isn't it amazing how badly our mass media represents us? You'd think that we were all under-educated half-wits that wave flags insessantly and practice religious fundamentalism... but really thats only like 80% of us. I, for one, am totally ashamed of that 80%...

Put Pole and French flaming in that 80% to make that really accurate.

Maybe we could include Poland as a Barbarian State?

Why? I myself am against of the Magyar being a barb state.

Nah, more like lemmings

Another Canadian Rodent.

Cortez

nice laugh.

Cause then there'd be jokes about sticky Poles..

nice to see a pole joke that ain't offensive.

View Post
But seriously folks, I know where he's coming from. Like mentioned earlier, why don't we include Venesuala, or Belize? They can't put EVERY country in the game,

Venezuela would not be a bad option infact. It houses the most important figure in latin american history. Simon Bolivar.

Poland quite honestly does "blow" when compared against every civilization that ever existed on a basis of "who were the top 25 most influential/famous civilizations of all time." That is my opinion on the importance of Poland to the history of the world, and does in no way mean that I have something against Poland or the people who live there.

And i agree. But this game has more then 25 civs doesn't it?

Yeah, odd huh. I guess I should have titled the thread about something other than Poland so it would become a Poland thread. I'll give it another day, before I shut this one down.

See i told you.

Generally, Poland's official 'start' as a kingdom was in 966. As usual, these 'official' dates are a little arbitrary, but it is viewed as when Miesko I, a leader of a Slavic group the 'Poles', accepted Christianity.

That's the first recorded known date. But as i said it could've and there is evidence it went a few centuries more. And before that, there's evidence that there was polish city states simialr to the greek city states. With this i would say polands history probably started of somewhere around the 6th-8th century?

Poland's leader, if it were included in Civ, should probably be Boleslav Chowbry (the Brave), Miesko's son.

Casimir and Sobieski were greater.

1385 starts the Golden Age for Poland

Correction. The first golden age.

In WWII, Poland fought well. Poland was doomed by the fall of Czechoslovakia in WWII, leaving them pretty much undefendable. Poland inflicted a large number of casualties nonetheless on the Germans. And it was the Poles who broke the Enigma code, and gave the solution to the British. We can speculate how WWII would have turned out without the Polish mathematicians who broke the enigma secret.

One could say we fought just as much and hard as france. (which could be a joke

Here is one of my favorite pictures by the way. It was out of an Article about this new polish attitude from the news paper "Der Spiegel".

Funny i buy Wprost...

Let me add that currently, a great number of Poles clearly do not only hate gays and Germans but also Jews, the EU (though that doesn't ekep them from accepting all the aid money from it) and, basically, just about everybody who isn't Polish. I hope the madness will pass.

Excuse me? I have no prolblem with germans, My best friend if Jewish and is born in isreal. I don't understand gays, but that's mainly because i'm not one myself. I think a gay would say the same thing about straight people. And our government hates the EU in my opinion. (i mean WTH arguement is that if all the poles didn't die in WW2 we'd have the same amount of votes as france and germany?)

Apparently I missed that statement. Did someone actually say that?

My opinion on that answer: No state in Europe was ever the greatest in europe. Europe is to divided into many cultures and all those cultures became really strong. That is why there are so many european civs in the game in my opinion. And even if one state was the strongest, it would never be stronger by another country "by much".

And another collusol post made by me!

 

[Gaius Octavius]

The problem with Poland threads is the same problem with the Poland petition that was started: only Polish people want that civ in.

How many SE Asians clamored for Siam or Khmer? Quite a few. How many of us white Europeans/Americans wanted it in? Also quite a few.

How many Ethiopians wanted that civ in? I can't think of any. How many non-Africans wanted it in? Quite a few.

How many Polish people wanted Poland in? All of them. How many non-Polish, non-Slavic people wanted it in? [crickets chirping]

 

[TheLastOne36]

The problem with Poland threads is the same problem with the Poland petition that was started: only Polish people want that civ in.

How many SE Asians clamored for Siam or Khmer? Quite a few. How many of us white Europeans/Americans wanted it in? Also quite a few.

How many Ethiopians wanted that civ in? I can't think of any. How many non-Africans wanted it in? Quite a few.

How many Polish people wanted Poland in? All of them. How many non-Polish, non-Slavic people wanted it in? [crickets chirping]

Completely biased. If you see that petition, there is by no means possible that there are that many polish people voting for poland.

 

[Gaius Octavius]

Completely biased. If you see that petition, there is by no means possible that there are that many polish people voting for poland.

All I see when I look at it are names like Jankowski, Wozniak, and Wojciechowski. Them ain't Irish.

 

[Evil Twin]

How many Ethiopians wanted that civ in? I can't think of any. How many non-Africans wanted it in? Quite a few.

Oh please. Who the hell would want Ethiopia apart from politically correct tools?
Stop pretending Ethiopia is at all significant. I say with 100% certainty that if Ethiopia was located in Europe, it would never have even been looked at.

For all it's flaws, at least Poland has actually done something other than commit atrocities on it's own people and suffer famine after famine because the people insist on farming dirt.

 

[Breunor]

The last one,

I pretty much agree with you. I still like Boleslav and Casimir more than Sobieski, but I think they are all good choices. I'm often nostalgic for the 'old guys', though.

I also don't think the 17th century was Poland's best, my view is that this is the century that they declined. Clearly, the early 17th was great, but not the end after the Deluge.

I agree with you that Poland shoud start before 966, 6th through 8th is fine but I admit I don't know Polish history here well.

Best wishes,

Breunor