Libraries

[Starrynite120]

What exactly is the problem with Barracks and libraries?

I've read through a good chunk of this thread, and neither from my experience nor from what people are saying does there seem to be any serious amount of unbalance here. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this thread just seems to be splitting hairs when there's not really much of a problem.

 

[ashendashin]

What exactly is the problem with Barracks and libraries?

I've read through a good chunk of this thread, and neither from my experience nor from what people are saying does there seem to be any serious amount of unbalance here. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this thread just seems to be splitting hairs when there's not really much of a problem.

People are niffed at how the upped relevance of barracks (supply cap) affects their games. Dunno why the OP started with the similarities though.
You probably wouldn't notice much of a difference if you were already building them. I haven't noticed, but I can see why this can become a problem. There's a clear difference in your chances of survival with the new cap system.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

I don't think of it that way. If I didn't need them for the cap, then I would build a barracks quickly in my land-unit military city, and soon after in my naval miliatry city (if it's different than the first), then wait until I needed them for crime-fighting everywhere else, unless I had nothing more appropriate to build.

Aha, so Barracks would be built only in one-two cities for XP which makes it obvious you are a peaceful builder, if you fought you'd prefer an unit for fighting - if you stay at peace early game, though, Barracks would be better for defense if you don't have an early war as you'd have better units. Then no more barracks anywhere until nothing more appropriate is left to be built, which probably means they get to be built before Piety and/or Fur-Truffle-less Caravansary and 1 stone/marble Stone Works. Basically, they'd be seen as often as national wonders, so a return to how it was in vanilla - well, unless someone goes Imperialism, but that'd require a warmonger and even for them it can be better to go Industry/Rationalism.

That's the problem right here I think you might just not want to build Barracks at all and want a return to vanilla where they were nearly useless so you can free up your production, getting other stuff instead. You just don't want to build them at all outside for one city for those few XP, meaning you don't want them in your build order in every city like you have Councils, Libraries, Monuments, Shrines, Water Mills.

Good point. How'd you do the poll? For me the question is if it is viable (feasible) to rush libraries and delay barracks if I need science, provided barracks is a good early source of science.

I am going to be honest. The poll cannot be made to provide reliable findings in the current environment. The only setting where you'd have a Council and access to both Library and Barracks is purely artificial or would only exist in singular real game scenarios as both buildings are valuable and typically built ASAP. For instance, if I go Writing first before Military Theory, I get Libraries ASAP wherever I have Councils excl. Scrivener unless I need units to defend myself - in the capital, if I go MT I get Barracks ASAP unless I need units. I always go Barracks first because to get Library, I'd need to build a Council. They're also on different techs, one of which requires way less Science, which also makes it a problem. Were the Council to potentially disappear and I had access to both, I'd build Libraries first post-Philosophy or if I felt I'm about to slip into losing Science from Gold (so all the time), but Barracks if I needed supply, but that's not the conditions we have. Obviously if I only had access to one, I would get that one, probably after Shrine/Monument/Water Mill, though not requiring Council would mean if the city had 3-4+ pop, I'd go for Library first every time just for the Culture + Science from the specialist post-Philosophy, but the pop being at 3 means if I start with Library I'm either Spain (UA + Authority burst = nearly instant 3 pop, soon 4) or I've already almost built something, which is the Water Mill as it'd make me able to actually work the Library for 5S 2C. Not Well, though. I'd get Piety-Market first always, though. 1G 3S 2P is maybe inferior to 5S 2C, but I don't need to work anyone in an early city, which frees up 1 pop when I need it a lot while speeding up my next building, the Library (or Water Mill if I feel I need more pop). I'd never get Barracks first anyway if I didn't need supply cap, where no Councils requirement to be the case.

I'd say it's like this, Library > Barracks, but Council < Barracks. Because Barracks are an immediate, superior gain in more than one area and Council is not impressive so other buildingss are more important, Council gets delayed, meaning Library gets delayed. Council is not UP though, it's what you'd expect from something this early that costs no maintenance and any buff would probably break it and make it a mandatory building nr1, it just has less features, especially in an environment where Supply from the building is important after ancient era, so current patch.

 

[Txurce]

That's the problem right here I think you might just not want to build Barracks at all and want a return to vanilla where they were nearly useless so you can free up your production, getting other stuff instead.

I want them returned to where they were pre-beta. I don't consider that useless, and it doesn't sound like you do, either.

 

[ashendashin]

That's the problem right here I think you might just not want to build Barracks at all and want a return to vanilla where they were nearly useless so you can free up your production, getting other stuff instead.

That'd create homogenity of decisions as everyone, regardless of playstyle, would have to do the same thing because while you COULD go right side first, the result would always be you falling lots of techs behind.

I don't see why you'd prefer an old option disappear for a unit cap.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

I want them returned to where they were pre-beta. I don't consider that useless, and it doesn't sound like you do, either.

If you want to see them returned to that, why suggest and defend nerfing their Science? You even advocated outright removing the Science which would turn them into the worst building into the game, something that'd mean nobody would be a warmongerer because it'd not be worth it ever. But nevermind that.
Your thoughts are admirable, but mistaken as they're is impossible. Pre-beta Barracks didn't have +1supply becase there was no supply cap changes. If they lose supply cap with the current system, nobody will be able to field a true army before medieval aside from Zulu if they keep that +1 supply, and if the system is made more lenient so that Barracks aren't needed for supply because you can field a good army to garrison your stuff, attack, defend, then we have exactly what we had pre-change, meaning we're back at square one here. The only other buildings that'd make sense to have +1 supply cap is Council (War Council), which'd overbuff the thing, or Walls which would be the worst idea ever, they're too much of a moneysink early to build outside of some cities and it'd be the worst of all worlds for both. Warmongerers would be nerfed while peacemongers would remain agitated. If, however, the thing is removed from Barracks but scaled so it's never going to be a problem ancient/classical, only starting from medieval at which point it scales abruptly (and armoury would need +2 supply probably to compensate), the next thread would be about Universities versus Armouries. Neither would touch the true thing you guys actually want to change.

What the topic should be about, if that is the case, isn't Libraries or Barracks, but the new supply system altogether. You guys are advocating to nerf the Barracks for being necessary for supply and for that the new supply system which means you have to build them is to blame. Just post in the supply cap thread to give your thoughts or just make one if it doesn't exist, now that we've reached this conclusion the topic makes no sense. You have no real beef with Barracks just as you'd have no beef with Armouries even though you'd spend posts suggesting they lose nearly every feature but XP, but what you dislike is mandatory buildings for supply cap.

I don't dislike the current system though, the buildings are necessary but it feels almost like pre-change to me if I focus them, and if I get Terracota/am Japan then supply is never a problem.

I don't see why you'd prefer an old option disappear for a unit cap.

I don't get what you mean.

 

[ashendashin]

I don't get what you mean.

I was just trying to say that the current supply system makes it so that barracks are kinda forcing the homogeneity no one would like. I like the buildings as they are. So does most of everyone, I think.
The problem is the supply system, as you and others have said. This may need some revising on the concept itself (which I've been adamant on mentioning. Probably a nightmare to actually work on though, so more tweaks to the current cap abound yay...)

 

[Txurce]

If you want to see them returned to that, why suggest and defend nerfing their Science

Personal preference regarding this game's design, as already explained in post #30.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

I was just trying to say that the current supply system makes it so that barracks are kinda forcing the homogeneity no one would like. I like the buildings as they are. So does most of everyone, I think.
The problem is the supply system, as you and others have said. This may need some revising on the concept itself (which I've been adamant on mentioning. Probably a nightmare to actually work on though, so more tweaks to the current cap abound yay...)

Yeah I also liked the simplicity of the previous system when supply just never ran out. The problem is it'll result either a building which provides only supply cap and is totally unappealing to all but warmongerers meaning nobody is a warmongerer because it'd require spending production for fielding an army before you can field the army in the first place while getting nothing much in exchange, or has a useful feature/yield meaning people get it first unless they don't need the cap, so current Barracks. There's no middle ground, unless the potential building (Barracks?) was worse for policy trees, but remained better for Authority with +yields in some policy. Otherwise, warmongering would just disappear.

That presents another problem as those rejecting to build the nerfed, unappealing Barracks would be easy prey for Authority, which'd inevitably make some of them complain it's too unappealing a building which only one policy tree enjoys but all must build anyway because otherwise Authority-goers will swamp them with units, or they'd say Authority needs heavy nerfs because they can't handle the units. Because they'd still not get Barracks due to them just looking bad, they'd demand nerfs constantly until Authority was nothing but +1 Science per Barracks in the finisher and that'd put us in an environment where warmongering, once again, is useless.

I think the changed system is as good as it can get aside from small numerical adjustments, the building needs to be as mandatory as the likes of Monument/Shrine/Water Mill/Market or it'll not get built and be complained about. It's not homogenity when I still build those first anyway.

Personal preference regarding this game's design, as already explained in post #30.

Yeah, I'll admit with honesty that I don't like your preferences though. Barracks going back to being pretty much national wonders for no reason doesn't seem like a good idea and I hope Gazebo doesn't listen to it.

 

[Txurce]

Yeah, I'll admit with honesty that I don't like your preferences though. Barracks going back to being pretty much national wonders for no reason doesn't seem like a good idea and I hope Gazebo doesn't listen to it.

I doubt Gazebo will change it for those reasons, too. Like I keep saying, no big deal to me.

 

[peterw1987]

The poll should be simple :

1. Which you build first ? Barrack or library?
2. Do you build barrack and library in each city ?
3. Do you think barrack need nerf / OP?

For me, barrack always first. barracks in each city, but not library. barracks do not need any nerf.

 

[ElliotS]

G has said that all ancient era buildings should be essential. You also can build Barracks AND Libraries. They're in two separate eras for god's sake.

Also I've had plenty of successful games going writing and sailing and skipping barracks until later on 7 and 8. It's not homogenized, and rushing great lighthouse will get you it 9/10 times on even Deity. (Which can be very good for your strategy.)

My opinion: No changes needed.

 

[Starrynite120]

The poll should be simple :

1. Which you build first ? Barrack or library?
2. Do you build barrack and library in each city ?
3. Do you think barrack need nerf / OP?

For me, barrack always first. barracks in each city, but not library. barracks do not need any nerf.

You can't do a straight comparison like that. The buildings are in different eras, one is more production and also requires another building while the other doesn't. This poll would not produce results worth anything.

It seems to me a majority of people are fine with how it is, including myself. No poll necessary, no changes needed.

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

I'm ok with how libraries and barracks work at the moment.

 

[tu_79]

Enrico, you're right in that we, peacemongers, don't want to build barracks everywhere. Just one for the military city that will produce our defensive army. In truth, I haven't met the military cap yet. It seems that budget is more limiting that unit cap. I'm researching rather slowly and I have the option to spam barracks everywhere, finish councils in some of the latter cities, or getting libraries in the most populated cities. Because I picked Tradition, I'm already progressing in the Great Scientist pool, at least in capital. My second city could do with a library, and maybe even put a specialist in there. Other cities cannot afford to spend workers for this yet. So I end up spamming barracks first because it would be more useful for those slow cities. After that I'm low on budget again, and need my production for units (as I'm being attacked for having too few units).

In vanilla you could rush libraries and forget about barracks because AI rarely attacked you, or if it did, it was very easy to handle. Even in some old VP releases you could just sit and build. Now you cannot. Being able to defend is a must (I must say I'm quite impressed). You already have good reasons to build the barrack, adding extra science was an artifice in older releases to spread science and avoid the 'just go for science' strategy.

What if barrack starts with +1 science, and get extra +1 science after a library is built?

 

[ashendashin]

What if barrack starts with +1 science, and get extra +1 science after a library is built?

No. Why do you want a nerf to barracks so badly? Just make the library cheaper or something if it's such a problem. If the unit slot makes it so important, talk about that instead of the science.

 

[Starrynite120]

No. Why do you want a nerf to barracks so badly? Just make the library cheaper or something if it's such a problem. If the unit slot makes it so important, talk about that instead of the science.

A second on this. Barracks don't need a nerf. And making library add science to barracks is just nonsensical.

Throwing out more suggestions will probably only receive a no, because as far as I can see people aren't convinced barracks need a change. A better case needs to be presented for nerfing them if you want them to be nerfed. As it stands, people aren't going to accept suggestions to change it because it seems people don't see a need there, and at this point in development if a change is to be instituted it must be for a good reason.

 

[tu_79]

No. Why do you want a nerf to barracks so badly? Just make the library cheaper or something if it's such a problem. If the unit slot makes it so important, talk about that instead of the science.

I don't know how to face it.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Enrico, you're right in that we, peacemongers, don't want to build barracks everywhere. Just one for the military city that will produce our defensive army. In truth, I haven't met the military cap yet. It seems that budget is more limiting that unit cap. I'm researching rather slowly and I have the option to spam barracks everywhere, finish councils in some of the latter cities, or getting libraries in the most populated cities. Because I picked Tradition, I'm already progressing in the Great Scientist pool, at least in capital. My second city could do with a library, and maybe even put a specialist in there. Other cities cannot afford to spend workers for this yet. So I end up spamming barracks first because it would be more useful for those slow cities. After that I'm low on budget again, and need my production for units (as I'm being attacked for having too few units).

In vanilla you could rush libraries and forget about barracks because AI rarely attacked you, or if it did, it was very easy to handle. Even in some old VP releases you could just sit and build. Now you cannot. Being able to defend is a must (I must say I'm quite impressed). You already have good reasons to build the barrack, adding extra science was an artifice in older releases to spread science and avoid the 'just go for science' strategy.

What if barrack starts with +1 science, and get extra +1 science after a library is built?

In vanilla you could ignore Markets too because city connections were very strong. You could ignore many buildings, in fact. I see no point in a nerf to Barracks when the vast majority seems to be okay with how it is as they don't consider it overpowered. Seriously, even you guys never outright call it OP or more mandatory than the likes of Monuments/Shrines/Water Mills, you are just not pleased that it's a necessary building. Just because - as almost all of ancient buildings - it's pretty much mandatory to have it, doesn't mean it should get nerfed so hard or nerfed at all. I've already many times elaborated why 1 Science barracks would turn the game into Must-Rush-Libraries even for warmongerers, especially after late nerfs to Authority, and no one contested my train of thought. If they're at 1 Science, then someone not rushing Libraries will always fall behind in Science as they'd provide 5 times less Science output than Barracks due to the fact Library Scientist is nearly always worked, and about 6 times less if you consider the imminent Great Scientist.

Your solution is pointless as it is for a non-existent problem and it'd be harmful for the game's variety of tactics. Unlike vanilla Civ, I can delay Writing if I get Barracks, often I even get to Swordsmen/Water Mill tech before Writing if I have a good start - were your changes to be implemented, even those rushing Military Theory for Horsemen would be forced to always go to Writing next, but most civs would be forced to go Writing first. Same as vanillla. It also makes no sense, why should a Library buff Barracks? Post-nerf to this part of Barracks there'd be only one valid tactic for warlike civs without +Science, rushing Writing, and all because some Tradition players don't like building Barracks despite not even claiming they're particularly OP, just a must like pretty much everything in ancient era.

 

[ashendashin]

I don't know how to face it.

If you dislike the new importance of military buildings, then say so. Gazebo went for a simplified military infrastructure that seems to have made the change jarring for some peaceful players. Consider that maybe you just don't like how barracks is the only way to have the units you need to survive, if that's the problem.