Lionised and Vilified

[lymond]

We really want to get rid of Thracian before an AI does and keeps the city. Cathy is over there so she will probably try soon. There might be a better place to settle in that area to keep the borders secure but it is fairly close to Cathy.

 

[nocho]

I'm fine with going for Music, as noted by cabert, if we lose the race it won't be a total waste of beakers.

About the settler in the icey south, I'd settle with marble in the 1st ring and hook it up asap as we can really use it (asap) for the epics. The city will be pretty horrible in any case and it really only serves to get marble. Or even settle on marble for all I care. I'd leave the deer for another city more east. Like maybe 1W of where the warrior is, to pick up silver and iron with some green tiles in the north. Nothing great, but it fills the void a bit.

On the barb city in the east, I witnessed some half-hearted attacks by Cathy and another AI I can't remember with archers (!). That's why both barb archers (note the one SW of the city) are wounded. Fine with razing it if you can get another unit nearby (the chariot is protecting the worker as it's building the iron mine).

Also note btw Frankfurt has a WB on the 2nd fish so no need to redirect the overflow to a WB in case you missed that. And please cottage up those river jungles west of Hamburg.

 

[Cam_H]

I think that 'Fish - Fur x3' should work OK (Maoi ?), and somehow build a 'Marble - Deer' city (probably 'Sheep - Iron - Marble - Deer - Fur' ?) should be OK. I'm struggling with those two Silvers though ... maybe 2N of eastern Silver so it can access three Grassland tiles. I think it'd be good to have access to Silver due to . I admit though, it's more land-grab and resource-grab than building good city sites.

I did miss that Work Boat - so thanks for pointing it out nocho!

 

[Sengir]

Turn 0:
Set tech to Music
Check the cities, MM is fine, but we need a lot of workeractions

Turn 1:
Essen: Granary > Settler
Dortmund: Granary > Library

Turn 2:
Berlin: Worker > Sword
2 Chariots kill 2 wounded barb archers near Thracian, only the city dweller left.

Turn 3:
Stuttgart: Granary > Library

Turn 4:
Hamburg: Worker > Courthouse
Cologne: Worker > Worker
Frankfurt whips library (I like this city )

Trades:

CoL to Cathy for Monarchy + 10g

CoL + Mono to Gustav for Construction + 20g

CoL + Lit to Suleiman for Calendar + 20g

Spoiler :

Put the slider at 40% to get Music in 3t

Turn 5:
Munich: Library > Barracks (Marble not hooked up yet)
Frankfurt: Library > Lighthouse

Turn 6:
Berlin: Sword > Axe
Promote one chariot to Flanking II: this gives him decent enough odds of retreating/damaging the archer in Thracian. Have another chariot to finish the archer of.
Flanking chariot doesn't need backup though:

We burn it to the ground.

Turn 7:
Music is in, set tech to CS
Also:

He's in Berlin.

French and Ottomans make peace; Maria and Nappy are still going at it. Cathy has a red fist as well.

Turn 8:
Whip Settler in Essen

Turn 9:
Munich: Barracks > Courthouse (marble not hooked up yet, though it is close)
Cologne: Worker > Worker
Essen: Settler > Library

Turn 10:
Berlin: Axe > NE
Also:

And this:

There's a worker in foreign lands due to a misclick, please bring him home safely.
A chariot is in foreign lands as well, but that's intentional
A settler is in the south near the Marble. I think we should settle it 1E of the marble, so that it can pick up the deer for food. If we want, we can settle on top of the marble though. That's why the two workers aren't doing anything yet.

Other than that we have to figure out how to proceed now with our Great Artist and Great Engineer (both are chilling in Berlin).

 

[vranasm]

guys i need skip. not feeling well etc.

 

[nocho]

Sounds pretty good. Nice trades too.

And great about a second odd-ball GE we pop! The game just doesn't want us to bulb philo. Is there anything interesting to rush? Otherwise settling him in Berlin won't be too awful.

I guess we can launch the GA as soon as we have the NE built... I guess we should be able to squeeze some scientists then, even though without philo yet the temporary switch to pacifism can't be done immediately.

 

[lymond]

It's too bad we didn't rush the Great Library in Fish city and I thought we were going to put the National Epic city there. Berlin really is not a very good city and probably should have just been turned into a production city and move the cap elsewhere.

I think we should use the Engineer on Sistine and rush it in Fish city. That should pretty much take care of that stupid city Cathy settled. NE will help there as well.

Cathy is very much a threat and we should start pumping some units to secure the western border. Maybe even consider a preemptive strike.

We might consider using a GA for a GA now and switch to Caste and starve Berlin and Frankfurt to get a couple of GSs out or at least one and probably some other one. CS will finish during the Golden Age so we can switch to Bureau at the tail end. We might consider a temp switch to OR and Judaism to speed up building during the GA, unless the variant calls for no religion ever.

As for the marble, I say just settle on it. The city is not going to be very good no matter where we settle around there. Silver city can go on the tundra tile in the center 2 north to eventually get some chain farming and a windmill

Note that if we settle on the Marble now, we can 2 pop whip that CH in Munich into the HE with a marble, OR and Golden Age bonus. Then Munich can start unit pumping for Cathy. Berlin should be pumping units as well. Mix in some spears. HBR would not be bad to have as we could then build some Phants. Cathy will have a lot of mounted units.

 

[Sengir]

If we go for GA + caste, Munich can get a GS out as well.

 

[cabert]

I would rush sistin chapel

 

[Cam_H]

I agree with lymond, although I'm a little kinder on Berlin, and wouldn't really favour a 'pre-emptive strike' on Catherine myself (be prepared to defend, but not too confident about attack), but otherwise, word-for-word.

Nice work sengir on trades and getting recon' underway!

Are we happy to trade away Music soon (do the hurry on Sistine in Frankfurt, and then trade before completion)? Some good cash is out there. Metal Casting would be nice for Triremes if nothing else, but as an entrée to a host of good Medieval units via Machinery, it'd be worth considering.

Wow ... a Great Scientist bulb would be nice! Golden Age and Caste for sure.

 

[nocho]

From a long term pure GPP generation's point of view surely GLib would have been better in Frankfurt. However, from a science output perspective putting it in Berlin at that moment (and in the foreseeable future) was much better because of the academy and even the library that Frankfurt still lacked. That way we've gone faster through our techs and have for instance secured the GAr from Music which otherwise we possibly would have missed. Also it has considerably speeded up the next great person (the one Sengir popped at the end of his set, which unfortunately was a GE) which otherwise would have taken 10 or 15 turns more. All this to say that while GLib in Frankfurt was certainly an option, Berlin also made a lot of sense. The short/medium-term advantages (along with the snowball-effect) of putting it in Berlin to me outweighed the long term advantages of putting it in Frankfurt. Every coin has a flipside here.

Nonetheless, I'm okay with putting NE in Frankfurt if that's the general preference, though Berlin works for me too. We only have to make sure to whip enough spec-buildings to make it worthwhile when we're not in caste (market, forge).

 

[vranasm]

still recovering from short stomach flu... so if pigs can take over "soon" I would prefer skip or smtg

I don't see why we're arguing the TGL? I think nocho has done well.
NE usually pairs very well, in the time that matters, with TGL, but I am not against putting in fishy.

From how I see the game's future... we are bound to get MT from lib (well nationhood in time of need) and that means Cam wants us to go with Cuirs rush.

So we need 1 GS for Philo, ~2 GS for Edu (paper we selftech). Then we tech Nat, Gunpowder, Lib and voila...we're in business.

That tells me we don't have that much time to abuse fishy city as GPP...more like draft city?

Didn't check the save yet...so take it with grain of salt. But this way I usually go about Cuirs rush.

We should get cities in size, so very lightly with whips. Big whipping after MT ;-)

Ah of course we need HBR in some trades too and ideally put stables here and there

 

[vranasm]

I checked the save...

to me it seems we will try to milk GPP's in Berlin, Munich and Frankfurt.

Frankfurt is size 6, where Berlin and Munich are on good sizes (both these cities are not that well with food surplus and we will starve them...but what one can do).

We are 7 turns from Bureau.

I am actually thinking about adjusting the plans a bit.

Instead of starting GA right away (we are not THAT prepared anyway) we could use the Great Engineer for building the National Epic.
That should bring next GS in 8 turns (in berlin of course).

Then we start the GA, switch into Bureau+Caste+Pac (the GS pops Philo) and switch into Budh for the GA.
All 3 cities have Budh.

Should be some serious abuse of GPP's imo.

What's everyone thoughts?

I know some of you suggested the Sistine chapel... But I don't usually bother with that thing... We can capture it from someone anyway.

 

[Cam_H]

still recovering from short stomach flu...

I wish you all the best for a + recovery!

I don't see why we're arguing the TGL? I think nocho has done well.
NE usually pairs very well, in the time that matters, with TGL, but I am not against putting in fishy.

I must admit that I'd put it in Fishy, but Berlin's as good (better short term, maybe less so as time goes by if not coupled with National Epic, but a strong short-term position is 'thumbs up' by me). Anyway, done now and I have no great issue with it.

Cam wants us to go with Cuirs rush.

I'm just throwing it out there for 'hits and giggles'. I'm just suggesting that maybe we could bunker down for a while. If roster say "Kick 'em wid da Elefant" then I'm open for more chitty chat on that.

 

[nocho]

I haven't checked it out, but I like what vra proposes, both the GPP plan and the idea of globe in fish city. I'm also not very hot about Sistine, though I wonder if we can't just chop out the NE quite fast in Berlin when the marble is online. Personally I like settled engineers, especially with rep...

Oh and KICK 'EM WID DA ELEFANT! Cuirs might work too though.

 

[vranasm]

@nocho
there is some small timing issue imo... The later we finish NE the lesser impact on getting next GS from berlin, which is due 15T.

I wouldn't delay the GA much longer then Bureau lands home... and ideal abuse involves the pac...

Btw is anyone else worried as me with the 7 Ottoman chariots near our borders?

 

[cabert]

we could also trade for MC and bulb machinery.

 

[nocho]

Btw is anyone else worried as me with the 7 Ottoman chariots near our borders?

At least he's not red-fisted, but sure I'd feel safer if we'd beef up our northern border a bit with a mix of spears and axes.

 

[lymond]

GE on NE seems a waste with marble online this turn, if we settle on marble like I mentioned. It means an even further loss of hammers from the GE. I understand the point on getting it up faster to get a GP faster, but it is really only a matter of a couple of turns if we run the GA.

If we go NE in Berlin, then Globe in Fishy makes more sense as we can use it as a true whip/draft mecca later. It can still pump some GPs as well. I think GE on Sistine in Fishy is still good. It's a good denial wonder and the extra culture in Fish will probably destroy Cathy's stupid city, plus extra culture in other border cities from specialists will be nice.

Although we might pull it off, it seems a bit late for Phantaputs. Curs would be nice though.

 

[vranasm]

well as I see it... we didn't met the consensus i hoped for ;-).

I thought that the GE->NE idea was brilliant and will nicely sync our empire, but probably am the only one.

I think I will make turnset which will have the target of getting CS (no switch to bureau) and getting that next GS and getting NE up in Berlin (it's something we are in consensus now?)

Other cities should mostly grow, so no whips of infrastructure.

City will be settled on the marble next turn (I have to move it up this turn), even if I think it's a pretty bad spot, if we don't use the GE for NE it's the only realistic way how to do the next TS. The spot deer+silver+iron still is open for later.
Btw there is another next spot in the south with fish and some hills that could be abused later in the game imo.

As I see it every city should have granary, rax. I will try to build some theathers if such opportunity arises, but the growth is more important.

The north worker pump, will be switched into some spears

I am thinking about slowing the CS to sync with the GS...as I see it no reason to take money if we are waiting for the GS and we could use the money for some emergency upgrade to spearman.

I will move the GE to Fishy city...
I am not hot on the Sistine Chapel since we will not run State Religion (we are bound to free religion after Lib), except for small time in the GA and the other benefit is 2 culture for specialist and 10 base culture... pretty steep price (1 GE for such marginal benefit)

edit:
I almost think using the GE for putting up GT after 6 theathers is almost better then for sistine!