Live stream "The Tech Web: Midgame Choices" Thursday, Sept 18 at 2pm EST

I'm just trying to make sure this one is caught. Perhaps it has been already, but there's no harm in pointing out the problem with it until it is addressed. Either to say, "no, it doesn't function that way", or "yes, it is a problem we will be fixing", or at even, "it's not something we think justifies fixing".

Or they're aware of the same balance problems you seem to see, but have tried it in game and found it to not be a problem?
 
Or they're aware of the same balance problems you seem to see, but have tried it in game and found it to not be a problem?

I'd much prefer that they weren't aware of the extent of the effect, or that the info we have about it is wrong/incomplete, or that the math is wrong. If the info we have is correct, and the math is right, and that effect is intended, then it's worrisome to say the least.

(I don't think it is intended.)
 
You realize that Adept Blue is basically the same as a spy stealing tech.

Essentially it is +1 spy...where the spy can only steal tech.
I think the idea is that with a Tech web, a Random tech is worth significantly less than its research cost. (Which could be used on a tech you want)

It May be unbalanced, but we can't be sure.
 
To steal a Tech you need to research Computing (4x as expensive as Pioneering), build the Spy Agency (more expensive than Trade Depot and Trade Convoy together), build up enough Intrigue, and the other civ has to have the Tech presumably.

That last one matters a lot, because it mitigates the early game problem of getting immensely expensive Techs from Covert Ops ... unless the faction you're stealing from has Adept Blue. It lowers the upper bound considerably.

Also, everyone can avail of the option it so it's not so much dice deciding the game. (Though there are still dice rolls involved, determining if your Agent succeeds, fails, get's caught.)

I do think Covert Ops look to be very strong in general.
 
the other civ has to have the Tech presumably.

Not as big of a deal as you're probably making it out to be honestly. Remember, it's not a tech tree, or line, like in previous Civ games. It's a web that different players in the same game will fill out with different priorities. I wouldn't be surprised that, unlike in Civ IV or V, even if you completely outclass the AI in tech they'll always have a different tech that you didn't grab. Even if it's not something that dramatically boosts your stuff, other civs will likely have one or two technologies to snag.
 
Let's keep in mind that the player has to maintain a trade route with Adept Blue for 25 turns in order to get that tech. Aliens can destroy the trade route (unless the player has built an ultrasonic fence and then picks that particular quest choice that makes trade routes immune to aliens) and other players can always disrupt the trade route. So there are many things that can deny the player the free tech that the player has to make sure to protect against. So for that reason, I don't think it is OP.
 
Not as big of a deal as you're probably making it out to be honestly. Remember, it's not a tech tree, or line, like in previous Civ games. It's a web that different players in the same game will fill out with different priorities. I wouldn't be surprised that, unlike in Civ IV or V, even if you completely outclass the AI in tech they'll always have a different tech that you didn't grab. Even if it's not something that dramatically boosts your stuff, other civs will likely have one or two technologies to snag.

It matters a lot in the expected Science output. Not all techs are equal cost. If another faction has had to research the tech themselves... you know it's at least a reasonable cost for the timeframe. So stealing it isn't an unreasonable return on investment.

It's being able to get extremely expensive techs for the timeframe that would make Adept Blue so powerful.
 
Let's keep in mind that the player has to maintain a trade route with Adept Blue for 25 turns in order to get that tech. Aliens can destroy the trade route (unless the player has built an ultrasonic fence and then picks that particular quest choice that makes trade routes immune to aliens) and other players can always disrupt the trade route. So there are many things that can deny the player the free tech that the player has to make sure to protect against. So for that reason, I don't think it is OP.

At most this changes the rarity of the problem. It doesn't change that it is a problem.

The Ultrasonic Fence quest is probably a given for anyone investing in Trade Routes and for sure for anyone with Adept Blue to trade with. It's like Purity 1 for Explorers. Seems like the only right move.
 
At most this changes the rarity of the problem. It doesn't change that it is a problem.

The Ultrasonic Fence quest is probably a given for anyone investing in Trade Routes and for sure for anyone with Adept Blue to trade with. It's like Purity 1 for Explorers. Seems like the only right move.

I just feel like as long as the game makes the player work for the "OP" part and gives other players viable ways to stop the "OP" part, then it is balanced.
 
No, what prompted me to say you were showing disrespect for the community and discussion was when you decided to take it on yourself to laugh at it.

What prompted me to ask if you're just trolling is when you stated that laughing at and mocking people for their opinions was a valid response here.

As for the comment about your involvement with game balance, it was prompted by "well so are a lot of other nasty surprises IRL, so what's new?" ... which seems to denote that you think game imbalances are just part of the game and not important to address outside of how you respond to them in-game. This not being in-game, it just caused me to wonder why you even care if Adept Blue gives a Tech every 25 turns or not.

It seems that nothing I say in this thread will please or appease you. My first comment about laughing was as much directed at myself as at anyone else, and certainly at no one specific. I even got one thumbs up for it. But you took it personally and called me out personally.

Then you concluded I was "disrespecting the community" and let everyone know how you felt. All this over a comment that rubbed you the wrong way personally because self deprecating humor and a call for perspective is apparently offensive to you? That's disrespectful? Who is disrespecting whom around here, anyway? Thus my second point about being used to prickly posters was an unsubtle rebuke of your own ongoing crusade of personal harassment.

And finally, game balancing is indeed a worthy area of discussion, but when virtually no one posting here has played the game through, some perspective that reflects on that fact might be useful. We don't know were all the bits and pieces fit in yet. Noting seeming imbalances is fine, but calling a game element out as OP and a game breaker without knowing if BE has built-in counters to it, seems premature to me.
 
It seems that nothing I say in this thread will please or appease you.

You could say that you think laughing at other people's arguments and opinions is not something you feel should be done here, rather than to say exactly the opposite and continue to try to justify having done it. That would be a start.

But you took it personally and called me out personally.

I referenced the action in general, because there were two cases that fit. Certainly you were one of those two, but I didn't call you out personally as you claim. I addressed you personally after you responded to me directly about it.

(No disrespect, but I wouldn't have known you from Adam before this. Maddjinn was the one I was far more concerned with since I know he has input into how the game will end up.)

And finally, game balancing is indeed a worthy area of discussion, but when virtually no one posting here has played the game through, some perspective that reflects on that fact might be useful. We don't know were all the bits and pieces fit in yet. Noting seeming imbalances is fine, but calling a game element out as OP and a game breaker without knowing if BE has built-in counters to it, seems premature to me.

The math is there for you to address if you want. We do have quite a lot of information about the game. We have an example of the effect of Adept Blue where the effect was noted in the Livestream, and the extent of the effect seems to have been around tripling overall research in 93 turns. The math and info we do have corroborate that that is a possibility ... and not even the extreme of it. We have the tech costs to a rather high degree of accuracy. We know the effects of other Stations.

It is enough to draw conclusions from. If there are other factors that weigh in, they would be welcomed. If it's fixed already that would be great. But if it's not, the only bad thing that can be done is to ignore the problem and allow it to persist.

There is nothing wrong with pointing out potential problems that are hinted at (or screamed in some cases) by evidence we have, even if they might possibly not exist.
 
Aeson,

Alpha Blue is not game breaking, from the limited information we presently have, no matter how much you rant and rave it is.

You state it gave 3 times the science, that is not true, since at MOST it gave 3 techs in the demos presented, and we have no idea if those are actual play through, or just demos set up so that he could talk about the game.
 
Congratulations, Aeson, since I registered here 12 years ago, you are the first and only person on Civ Fanatics that I've ever elected to ignore. Have a nice day.

Moderator Action: It is trolling to publicly announce that you are ignoring someone. Please refrain from this sort of statement in the future.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
 
Aeson, you're the only one freaking out. Maybe take a step back and take a deep breath?

Yes, Adept Blue (I keep wanting to call it Deep Blue) is strong. if it shows up in your game, you don't have to use it, you can always just burn them to the ground. Perhaps it is a bit strong and should be reduced to a big ol' shipment of beakers, but that doesn't mean you have to freak out and keep screaming at us (which it feels you are doing) when we're more worried about the game coming out in the first place than how strong or weak a single station might be.

Let the game at least come out and everyone get a few games in before you start getting all bent out of shape about how overpowered something is in a beta build.
 
Aeson, you're the only one freaking out. Maybe take a step back and take a deep breath?

Yes, Adept Blue (I keep wanting to call it Deep Blue) is strong. if it shows up in your game, you don't have to use it, you can always just burn them to the ground. Perhaps it is a bit strong and should be reduced to a big ol' shipment of beakers, but that doesn't mean you have to freak out and keep screaming at us (which it feels you are doing) when we're more worried about the game coming out in the first place than how strong or weak a single station might be.

Let the game at least come out and everyone get a few games in before you start getting all bent out of shape about how overpowered something is in a beta build.

I really hope it is not reduced to a shipment of beakers... if it is OP, have it select the random tech excluding the more expensive ones available to you. That is more interesting than just beakers (especially with the Tech Web and Affinities.)
 
I really hope it is not reduced to a shipment of beakers... if it is OP, have it select the random tech excluding the more expensive ones available to you. That is more interesting than just beakers (especially with the Tech Web and Affinities.)

Agreed. I think getting a random tech is interesting with the tech web because you are not getting another tech on your must-have list but instead you are actually getting a tech that might help you or might not. Remember that you could get a tech that gives you a boat load of affinity points in the "wrong" affinity. We even saw an example of that in the covert ops stream where Pete got a tech that gave him 3 affinity levels in a different affinity than he was actively pursuing. So getting a random tech is more interesting now.
 
Yeah. I'm far more interested in how Adept Blue might change my strategy by randomly awarding me a big pile of faction points I wasn't necessarily heading towards, or unlocking a wonder I wasn't trying for. Like Pete said, it might tip him towards Contact, even though it's not his goal. Also, what if it bumps him to 3 supremacy, and opens up a lvl 4 supremacy required building or wonder. How committed to Harmony are you? Could you fight someone, or expand somewhere you wouldn't for Firaxite? Or is it 25 wasted turns?
 
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