Live stream "The Tech Web: Midgame Choices" Thursday, Sept 18 at 2pm EST

[Aeson]

Also, they forgot to show the next turn in that game, where his sea based trade route gets eaten by a wandering Krakken just a couple turns before it finishes...

It doesn't appear to be a risk at that juncture. it also is a risk that all Trade Routes share in, so can be disregarded when determining the balance of Trade Routes.

Even if it did happen and we ignore that it could equally happen to any Trade Route, all it means is he would need to build another Trade Convoy. The 40 Production for having tripled his Science output would still have been an extremely good return on investment.

 

[Zet]

There are several things which strike me as underpowered or overpowered:

Adept Blue: should probably give just science towards a random tech, rather than techs.
Free solar collector from resource pods: solar collectors should be from expeditions.
Artist colonists: should probably be +1 culture +1 health. Extra health seems way better than anything else at this point, so maybe none of the colonists should give extra health.

 

[gunnergoz]

As usual, there is vigorous debate regarding aspects of a game no one posting has yet to play. I'm used to it and participate myself, but sometimes I just have to sit back and laugh at it all.

 

[MadDjinn]

As usual, there is vigorous debate regarding aspects of a game no one posting has yet to play. I'm used to it and participate myself, but sometimes I just have to sit back and laugh at it all.

 

[Aeson]

There are many hypothetical game mechanics that could easily be determined to be imbalanced even without playing the game. Would you find a 100STR 20MOV unit that cost 20 Production at Pioneering balanced? (Hyperbole to ensure that everyone will notice the problem with it.) How do you know without playing the game?

We have info about the game now. It gives 1 free tech every 25 turns (on settings we've seen it). We have the Tech costs for most Techs and relative ~costs for all of them. We have an example of Adept Blue roughly tripling a faction's tech rate in the first 93 turns. Simple math can show that that +300% Science isn't even the upper bound in that timeframe for a Station which gives a random Tech every 25 turns.

If there's other info that somehow could make that "balanced" it would be welcome. Simply laughing at the discussion either speaks poorly of respect for the community or for game balance.

 

[gunnergoz]

There are many hypothetical game mechanics that could easily be determined to be imbalanced even without playing the game. Would you find a 100STR 20MOV unit that cost 20 Production at Pioneering balanced? (Hyperbole to ensure that everyone will notice the problem with it.) How do you know without playing the game?

We have info about the game now. It gives 1 free tech every 25 turns (on settings we've seen it). We have the Tech costs for most Techs and relative ~costs for all of them. We have an example of Adept Blue roughly tripling a faction's tech rate in the first 93 turns. Simple math can show that that +300% Science isn't even the upper bound in that timeframe for a Station which gives a random Tech every 25 turns.

If there's other info that somehow could make that "balanced" it would be welcome. Simply laughing at the discussion either speaks poorly of respect for the community or for game balance.

Am I supposed to feel put in my place? Abashed? Spanked? Good luck with that. Perhaps I'm only laughing at some of things I see posted here that reflect my own foibles.

Then again, maybe I'm just one of those folks who happens not to think that Adept Blue threatens to destroy game balance, since it can be readily destroyed by any faction that sees fit to do so. It is not a game mechanic, after all, but simply a game element among dozens of others, many of whom we as yet know little or nothing about.

 

[OldEarthRelic]

Can someone tell me the average cost of a 1st ring and 2nd ring stem?

 

[gunnergoz]

Can someone tell me the average cost of a 1st ring and 2nd ring stem?

Not exactly, but this chart http://well-of-souls.com/civ/images/tech_web4.jpg implies a 1:5:14 ratio between 1st/2nd/3rd rings. At least it seems to. Does that help?

 

[OldEarthRelic]

We'll an "average" station would give me 4 bpt at level 1. In 25 turns, that's 100 science. Is that dramatically less than the free tech we would get from Adept Blue?

 

[Aeson]

Am I supposed to feel put in my place? Abashed? Spanked? Good luck with that.

Feel however you'd like.

Then again, maybe I'm just one of those folks who happens not to think that Adept Blue threatens to destroy game balance, since it can be readily destroyed by any faction that sees fit to do so.

And should your statements as such be simply laughed at or mocked?

It is not a game mechanic, after all, but simply a game element among dozens of others, many of whom we as yet know little or nothing about.

If you want to call it game element, that's fine. What you call it changes precisely nothing about what it's effect on the game is.

That effect of Adept Blue in the one example we have so far is ~tripling of overall Science for the faction in the first 93 turns. The known Tech costs and game mechanics involved, along with basic math, show that isn't even the extreme possible.

 

[Aeson]

We'll an "average" station would give me 4 bpt at level 1. In 25 turns, that's 100 science. Is that dramatically less than the free tech we would get from Adept Blue?

Rings can contain large variation in Science cost for the techs. Computing for example is about 3x as expensive as other R1 techs. Nodes (how many node techs) is a better comparison both in cost and how long it takes to reach, but not perfect either once you get to the 2nd ring.

I covered that analysis in an earlier post:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13461475&postcount=89

At the worst Adept Blue gives you comparable return to other stations, which are all along the lines of 3 to 4 counters per turn or a similar value in units.

It's the upper bound that's completely out of whack. Look at the (estimated from turn time) cost ratios:

N1: 1
N1L: 2.5
N2: 8
N2L: 12
N3: 22
N3L: 34

You can realistically get a N2 tech by the time you'd get the first Adept Blue free tech. That opens up N2L and N3 techs. If you get a N3 tech that's 34x as much Science as getting a N1 tech, and it's dice deciding the game.

T4 and T4L could theoretically be in play for SF or FI in the first 50 turns of trading with Adept Blue, and (not sure on the ratios) would put it around 50x as useful.

 

[gunnergoz]

Feel however you'd like.

Thanks, I think I'll feel mildly entertained.

And should your statements as such be simply laughed at or mocked?

Why not, it wouldn't be the first time around here.

If you want to call it game element, that's fine. What you call it changes precisely nothing about what it's effect on the game is.

That effect of Adept Blue in the one example we have so far is ~tripling of overall Science for the faction in the first 93 turns. The known Tech costs and game mechanics involved, along with basic math, show that isn't even the extreme possible.

Actually, what I call it does mean a lot about how I regard it and how it affects the games I'll be playing: If its out there in the game and I grab it, too bad for the AI opponents. And if its out there and they grab it first, then I darn well will be looking to take it away or destroy it ASAP. And if its presence or absence in any particular game is unknown to me, well so are a lot of other nasty surprises IRL, so what's new? I'll deal with it when the time comes. It is not a game breaking bug, not a feature, but an element that has a lot of potential clout if it is allowed to get away with it.

 

[Louis XXIV]

There are many hypothetical game mechanics that could easily be determined to be imbalanced even without playing the game. Would you find a 100STR 20MOV unit that cost 20 Production at Pioneering balanced? (Hyperbole to ensure that everyone will notice the problem with it.) How do you know without playing the game?

However, I would imagine the ones easy enough to be caught without playing are also extremely likely to have already been caught.

 

[Aeson]

However, I would imagine the ones easy enough to be caught without playing are also extremely likely to have already been caught.

I'm just trying to make sure this one is caught. Perhaps it has been already, but there's no harm in pointing out the problem with it until it is addressed. Either to say, "no, it doesn't function that way", or "yes, it is a problem we will be fixing", or at even, "it's not something we think justifies fixing".

As it stands, it seems to be a sore thumb sticking out of a game system that seems decently balanced otherwise.

 

[Aeson]

Actually, what I call it does mean a lot about how I regard it and how it affects the games I'll be playing: If its out there in the game and I grab it, too bad for the AI opponents. And if its out there and they grab it first, then I darn well will be looking to take it away or destroy it ASAP. And if its presence or absence in any particular game is unknown to me, well so are a lot of other nasty surprises IRL, so what's new? I'll deal with it when the time comes. It is not a game breaking bug, not a feature, but an element that has a lot of potential clout if it is allowed to get away with it.

I'm more worried about the games people play for competitive/comparative purposes. Obviously for players who don't care about the balance of game mechanics, discussion of the balance of game mechanics isn't important. Which of course leads to the question of why you feel it necessary to participate in such a discussion ... are you just trolling?

Moderator Action: Accusing (or strongly implying) that others are trolling is itself trolling. Let's keep things civil.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[OldEarthRelic]

So Ring 1 Stem is 96 beakers (3*32, from German play-through), apart from computing which is 127*3 = 380. You may randomly get a tech that you are half-way (or more) through researching. Since this is a straight 25 turn gig, it will be difficult to manipulate timing. Yes, you could have genetics by the end of the 25th turn, but that's not certain. While a fluke result (Adept Blue gives you Computing, which would be the best result) could certainly help greatly, I don't think it's that imbalanced, on average. No more than El Dorado as Spain, or Fountain of Youth.

 

[Aeson]

So Ring 1 Stem is 96 beakers (3*32, from German play-through), apart from computing which is 127*3 = 380. You may randomly get a tech that you are half-way (or more) through researching. Since this is a straight 25 turn gig, it will be difficult to manipulate timing. Yes, you could have genetics by the end of the 25th turn, but that's not certain. While a fluke result (Adept Blue gives you Computing, which would be the best result) could certainly help greatly, I don't think it's that imbalanced, on average. No more than El Dorado as Spain, or Fountain of Youth.

It's a giant dice roll every 25 turns.

Computing wouldn't be open to start, but by the first 25 turn tech in most games one N2 and some N1L techs would be opened. (N0 being Habitation.) Say you research 1 N1 tech in the first 25 turns of trading, and have already gotten 1 N01 (Pioneering) to be able to trade at all of course.

That means you likely have tech opened like so: (beaker costs are estimates from the livestream, since we know those settings were where 25 turns was from)

1x N1L ~90
4x N2 ~100
1x-2x N2L ~250
0x-2x N3- ~400
1x-2x N3+ ~800

N3- are the cheap N3 techs, N3+ are the expensive N3 techs. Say we take Ecology, which opens up 2x N2L, 2x N3-, and 1x N3+:

1x N1L ~90
4x N2 ~100
2x N2L ~250
2x N3- ~400
1x N3+ ~800

That gives a total Science of 2590/10 = 259 expected Science from the first completion of the route. 800 is the max. 90 is the min. So this isn't "rarely" overpowered, it starts overpowered on average and just has an absurd upper bound. The +4 Science Trade Route in the same time would give 100 expected Science. You have a 1/10 chance that the max will hit, which is 8x the value of the other trade route.

So already the expected is far higher for Adept Blue on the first iteration and the variation is massive 90 to 800. This is a slots game mechanic, not a strategy game one.

It gets worse. Let's say you did get that 1/10 N3+ hit (Terraforming). Now you've opened up 2x N3+L, 1x N4+, and would be best served (from pure Science output standpoint) to research the N1L and/or N2L on the second iteration. Probably you can reasearch the N1L and 1 N2L. Which would put you at:

3x N2 ~100
2x N2L ~250
2x N3- ~400
2x N3+L ~1200
1x N4+ ~2600

That gives a total Science of 6600/10 = 660 expected Science from the second completion of the route. Even if we assume the other Trade Route would have made Level 2 after the first 25 turns of trading and that doubles the output, expected is now 3x the other Trade Routes. 2600 is the max, which is 13x (more likely 26x). 100 is the min... which is either balanced or not that great.

Now you're only going to hit the max max 1/100 times, but when you do hit that max you're talking a huge shift in Science output. You can grab a N4 tech in the first... ~75 turns?

If you're FI or SF you could actually grab 2x N4 techs (or a N4L, but that doesn't make as much sense) in that timeframe. Then the next iteration becomes really absurd.

 

[Aeson]

Just to address the solution (that's already been posted a few times) ... if Adept Blue instead only gives one of the cheapest techs available then it's reasonably balanced. You'd probably get an 80 or 100 Science tech the first time. Probably 100 Science tech the second time. And then maybe a 100 or 150 Science tech the third time. That would likely be a bit underpowered an is really just duplicating the +Science counter version in a different way, but it's a pretty safe bet it would be much closer to the value of the other Stations than getting an 800 Science tech the first time, a 2600 Science tech the second time, and then even better the third time!

Ideas for fun/interesting Stations that would maintain balance (names TBD):

Wolf Beetle Petting Zoo:
2x Wolf Beetle unit

Manticore Firing Range
1x Manticore unit

The Fire Pit:
X Geothermal for duration of trade route. Lost if trade route is broken.

(various other Strategic Resource Stations)

Some fun that would need some checking into to make sure they're not problematic:

Affinity Groups
Give +1 Affinity Level for duration of trade route. Affinity Level lost if trade route broken.

... there are lots of options here. I just don't see a point in putting a Tech slot machine (especially one that pays out > 250%) into the game.

 

[gunnergoz]

I'm more worried about the games people play for competitive/comparative purposes. Obviously for players who don't care about the balance of game mechanics, discussion of the balance of game mechanics isn't important. Which of course leads to the question of why you feel it necessary to participate in such a discussion ... are you just trolling?

I don't think this Adept Blue station deeply imbalances the game and I say so plainly, even explain why I think this is the case...and that makes me someone "lacking respect for the community" and "who don't care" about game mechanics - or a "troll?" Can't we all just get along like adults and respect the fact that we're each entitled to our own opinions? You are quickly spoiling an otherwise interesting thread with these annoying and entirely unnecessary personal attacks.

 

[Aeson]

I don't think this Adept Blue station deeply imbalances the game and I say so plainly, even explain why I think this is the case...and that makes me someone "lacking respect for the community" and "who don't care" about game mechanics - or a "troll?" Can't we all just get along like adults and respect the fact that we're each entitled to our own opinions? You are quickly spoiling an otherwise interesting thread with these annoying and entirely unnecessary personal attacks.

No, what prompted me to say you were showing disrespect for the community and discussion was when you decided to take it on yourself to laugh at it.

What prompted me to ask if you're just trolling is when you stated that laughing at and mocking people for their opinions was a valid response here.

As for the comment about your involvement with game balance, it was prompted by "well so are a lot of other nasty surprises IRL, so what's new?" ... which seems to denote that you think game imbalances are just part of the game and not important to address outside of how you respond to them in-game. This not being in-game, it just caused me to wonder why you even care if Adept Blue gives a Tech every 25 turns or not.