LK101, Diety, World Map, Civ=TBD

[LKendter]

Lee, an example of what I am talking about is LK102. I took the turn I declared war on the Sioux and continued it to 250 AD - the year we are at now.

I am not sure why you give this one as an example. That was a mess beyond my ability to do anything with. I am still totally baffled how you did well with that.

I am guessing the war will last at least 30 turns before Brazil is destroyed.

The goal when we talked about the Brazil was a short war for pointy-stick research to catch up in tech. If we take out Brazil what is the plan to catch up in tech?

 

[LKendter]

Let's look at the first situation. This is my complaint with the Aztec wars:

We are going to lose more cities in the rear. We still don't have a single horseman for rear guard duty. I dropped science to 0%. The Aztecs will sign peace for $20 and $23/turn.

 

[M60A3TTS]

I appreciate the need for horses, but we don't have HBR. It's just chariots at this point. Otherwise they would have been built in lieu of some swords for just this purpose.

 

[LKendter]

One of the comments on the Brazil war was that we can take them out and not worry about miserable people / flips. We don't have mapmaking. Please notice the city on the island. We are in no position to get Map Making any time soon. Relying on the AIs to take out a city like this is very questionable.

 

[LKendter]

I appreciate the need for horses, but we don't have HBR. It's just chariots at this point. Otherwise they would have been built in lieu of some swords for just this purpose.

That is a good point. I am to used to having Horseback Riding before I research Currency. I agree that chariots sucks and we are stuck with only swords.

 

[LKendter]

In case you are trying to understand my frustration with this game please take a look at the below picture. You never know who is going to drag in an ally in the future. I don't care if 2 of the 3 are phony. Multiple wars in the ancient ages are the worst scenario for the human playing at deity. The human advantages of smarter workers actions, city management, etc haven't had time to come into play.

 

[M60A3TTS]

I would suggest we make peace with the Aztecs and give them Horsetown. Brazil likely has to have a horse supply of their own somewhere. The Aztecs will be left with an isolated town that won't be a major threat. If we stay at war, it's not the landings that concern me so much, as it is they may bring Venezuela into the war. Then we have no help with Brazil.

Saving the cash and cutting science back will let us get Venezuela in against Brazil on our side. If in fact Brazil no longer has iron, we can turn the tables on them before long. We don't need to wipe them out, just clear them off the continent. Grab their horse supply and we're back in business.

They can keep Porto Velho until we're ready to finish them off. In any case I wouldn't be surprised if they haven't already sent off a galley to settle some barren block of ice near the north pole.

 

[LKendter]

In any case I wouldn't be surprised if they haven't already sent off a galley to settle some barren block of ice near the north pole.

This is a very good point. It is impossible to totally eliminate any AI at this point. We are a long way from having the world full and the AI to stop sending out settlers.

The plan to wipe out Brazil isn't viable. We might cripple them, but a total elimination isn't possible.

 

[LKendter]

I would suggest we make peace with the Aztecs and give them Horsetown. Brazil likely has to have a horse supply of their own somewhere.

Rule #1 of civ - never trust it go give an even resource distribution. I've already seen whole continents with ZERO of a key resource. The LK raze 3 domination game had most of our key resources from one island despite owning a large block of land.

The Aztec's will get GPT to end the war.

 

[Greebley]

Well the other option is to raze the cities and not go for extinction. We get more lands but have to build settlers. After 20 we see what techs we can get for peace.

Brazillian cities far from their home lands mean flips are very low chance. Even if one flips we still are +7 cities or something like that. If we stay at war we simply take the city back. Starving down to size 1 usually works though. I would say we probably won't get such a flip.

The thought would be to hunt down the final islands. We have a chance of owning MM in 30-40 turns if we wanted.

 

[LKendter]

Looking at the game we can get cash from Germany (using gpt and ally with Venezuela vs. Brazil. Brazil would be crushed like and egg and we would gain about half their lands I am guessing.

I am guessing you want the cash for the embassy. I certainly don't want to give Venezuela cash for an alliance. You know how "loyal" the AIs are to alliances.

Ideal would be to completely destroy Brazil.

As the thread already discussed this won't happen. However, if they are isolated to a couple junk cities we should get a good block of tech. We really need Construction, and Currency to getting into builders mode.

We could almost certainly replace the city we already lost with a goodly number of captures (or razes - I generally prefer captures though).

I can't see enough of the Brazilian cities to judge completely. However, IMO this is more about razes then captures. The Silk City is TOO critical to gamble on a flip. That one must be replaced. I am willing to risk flips with the size 1 junks like Manaus. By the time you get up to size 5 Recife I prefer to raze for the free labor. I found a ton of free labor is worth having some cities build settlers.

The disadvantage is that we will be spending 20 or 30 odd turns at war, which will slow our building of infrastructure. On the other hand we can't build much.
I guess I am asking permission to try the Alliance. I feel I can make it work. It does require us to remain focused on war.

These two quotes are very linked. We desperately need to get into builders mode, but until we get the needed techs we CAN'T. I reluctantly agree on the alliance.

I am just to out of sync with this team. I hate defiance and ancient age wars at deity until that AI has fought at least one war. I am still highly frustrated that I have to make these types of decisions due to defiance. I haven't even commented on a lot of other comments I disagree with.

 

[M60A3TTS]

I said that it was likely Brazil had horses based on the simple fact we were attacked by them. Hardly conclusive as they could be imports, but it's worth a shot. We should be able to conquer South America with or without them.

 

[Greebley]

Lee, I should probably state that I am in complete agreement with you on the defiance issue. I much prefer to choose the time and place of the start of the war. It is not worth the war happiness because you get into situations like the one we are in now. We can gain an advantage here, but the path is much harder and costly than it would have been.

I still remember the one LK where a single defiance led to every civ declaring on the team. This was near the start of my "sg career", but I thought it very instructional on what the cost of defiance can be.

Sometimes when the reward for defiance is great, I will consider it if cities are well enough defended to handle nearby civs declaring war.

I was more focused on what to do next rather than what had happened so I didn't mention this before.

 

[LKendter]

I still remember the one LK where a single defiance led to every civ declaring on the team.

That was one of the 100K culture win attemps. We lost 2 or 3 cities and the 100K goal really took a beating.

 

[LKendter]

I was more focused on what to do next rather than what had happened so I didn't mention this before.

That is a comment I understand. I was so focused on us shooting ourself in the foot with the Aztec defiance that I couldn't even look at the big picture when the game started. Even my reaction of end all wars now was due to that. I went overboard because of it.

 

[M60A3TTS]

Brazil's horses are in the capital of Salvador. That assumes they have only one source.

 

[romeothemonk]

Sucessfully hitched. Will read and be able to play this weekend. Comments to follow when I have more of a grasp of what is happening.

 

[M60A3TTS]

Welcome aboard Romeo. I seem to recall during SGOTM-3 you were showing us a picture of your wife-to-be. Time flies when you're having fun and playing Civ!

 

[Greebley]

Preturn:

Germany has cash. We give them 5 gpt for 74 gold.
Establish an Embassy with Venezuela. Ally against Brazil for 17 gpt.

Another reason to ally with Venezuela vs Brazil is that if the Aztecs or Brazil dragged Venezuela against us as well it could get very ugly. This way they have to fight Brazil. Even a war with them occurs, they still have to get through Brazil to get to us.

We are committed to 20 turns of war. The most difficult will be the first years.

For the Aztecs it would be nice if they unloaded their boats where we wanted them to. I take the units out of Rosario to try to get this to happen. Not sure it it will succeed. I also rush a spear in one or two places that are particularly bad looking. We may even get a regular sword that everyone will wonder how it came about (I switched a temple which can wait).

I could just make peace, but these small things may be sufficient. I don't want to turn off research entirely.

If they drop a landing big enough to take a town, we will make immediate peace. Othewise, I would like to get the price down.

Early: Concentrate on Defending cities.
Kill an Aztec landing of an MDI and Ancient Cavalry

Mid: Well defense is doing pretty well. Unfortunately, we now have even more useless wars and cannot get out of any of them. We are getting closer to Markets and we need Aquaducts as well. We get back our money form Venezuela when they get pulled in against us too. Oh and America too for completeness. We have only gotten one other landing which we killed. The boats circle but cannot decide where to drop troops.

The Brazillian troops are milling about randomly in the mountains. This is unfortunate because I haven't been able to do much against them. They haven't done much to us either. I think we have lost 2 or 3 units total.

In any case we trade 17 gpt with Russia (I picked them because their start position is sub-optimal) for Currency.
We trade Currency and 21 gpt to France for Construction.
We trade Currency for HBR and Mysticism.

Switch builds to Markets and Aquaducts with only a few towns still building units.

Late: Get Horses connected and start a few. Finally some Aztec ships are retreating without landing anything. Our defenses may finally be adequate. We do get a landing that is my fault - I let a town go tow a single defender.

We get the Forbidden Palace. This helps our Economy.

Notes:
Making peace with the Aztecs would have totally killed our research. I decided against it. Instead I worked on preventing landings and being able to handle landings when they do occur. This took nearly all my turn.

The war with Brazil was too difficult to pursue due to the Aztec situation. Units landing anywhere meant a stalemate - too many units had to be at home to make it effective.

So the path I chose was to build up or defense to sufficient levels and go for Infrastructure. This is what we are currently doing. We are building Aquaducts and Markets. As our cash increases we can increase research if we so choose.

Feel Free to change research to whatever you feel is best We have 3 turns toward polytheism, but that was 0% research so I think we have a grand total of 9 beakers invested. As we get Markets and Aquaducts we should be able to increase science.

A few towns are still a bit weak on defense. These should be shored up. Every town should have at least two units. Some units got killed near San Luis/Santa Fe so we need more there. Medoza also needs a unit or two. The green boat near Santa Fe is empty. The red one (Brazil) probably has units in it.

----------------------------------------------------

My suggestion for the future is to keep our defenses up rather than trying to end the wars. The cost to end all wars is probably in the vicinity of 80-100 gpt. We may be able to slowly build up units. I would like to grab Brazil's Lux at some point. If we can go on the offensive we may be able to get the prices lower - at least for Brazil at any rate. Also the AI tends to get war fatigue and will lower prices if you stay at war long enough with no effect.

The advantage of this method is that we keep our gpt for research.

The cost of Currency and Construction was high, but with our economy completely stalled we needed the ability to build Infrastructure. We got 4 techs from it. We are 3 techs from the Middle Ages.

The only plus to the whole thing is that we got some elite units. We got about 8-10 elite victories but no leader.
Preturn:

Germany has cash. We give them 5 gpt for 74 gold.
Establish an Embassy with Venezuela. Ally against Brazil for 17 gpt.

Another reason to ally with Venezuela vs Brazil is that if the Aztecs or Brazil dragged Venezuela against us as well it could get very ugly. This way they have to fight Brazil. Even a war with them occurs, they still have to get through Brazil to get to us.

We are committed to 20 turns of war. The most difficult will be the first years.

For the Aztecs it would be nice if they unloaded their boats where we wanted them to. I take the units out of Rosario to try to get this to happen. Not sure it it will succeed. I also rush a spear in one or two places that are particularly bad looking. We may even get a regular sword that everyone will wonder how it came about (I switched a temple which can wait).

I could just make peace, but these small things may be sufficient. I don't want to turn off research entirely.

If they drop a landing big enough to take a town, we will make immediate peace. Othewise, I would like to get the price down.

Early: Concentrate on Defending cities.
Kill an Aztec landing of an MDI and Ancient Cavalry

Mid: Well defense is doing pretty well. Unfortunately, we now have even more useless wars and cannot get out of any of them. We are getting closer to Markets and we need Aquaducts as well. We get back our money form Venezuela when they get pulled in against us too. Oh and America too for completeness. We have only gotten one other landing which we killed. The boats circle but cannot decide where to drop troops.

The Brazillian troops are milling about randomly in the mountains. This is unfortunate because I haven't been able to do much against them. They haven't done much to us either. I think we have lost 2 or 3 units total.

In any case we trade 17 gpt with Russia (I picked them because their start position is sub-optimal) for Currency.
We trade Currency and 21 gpt to France for Construction.
We trade Currency for HBR and Mysticism.

Switch builds to Markets and Aquaducts with only a few towns still building units.

Late: Get Horses connected and start a few. Finally some Aztec ships are retreating without landing anything. Our defenses may finally be adequate. We do get a landing that is my fault - I let a town go tow a single defender.

We get the Forbidden Palace. This helps our Economy.

Notes:
Making peace with the Aztecs would have totally killed our research. I decided against it. Instead I worked on preventing landings and being able to handle landings when they do occur. This took nearly all my turn.

The war with Brazil was too difficult to pursue due to the Aztec situation. Units landing anywhere meant a stalemate - too many units had to be at home to make it effective.

So the path I chose was to build up or defense to sufficient levels and go for Infrastructure. This is what we are currently doing. We are building Aquaducts and Markets. As our cash increases we can increase research if we so choose.

Feel Free to change research to whatever you feel is best We have 3 turns toward polytheism, but that was 0% research so I think we have a grand total of 9 beakers invested. As we get Markets and Aquaducts we should be able to increase science.

A few towns are still a bit weak on defense. These should be shored up. Every town should have at least two units. Some units got killed near San Luis/Santa Fe so we need more there. Medoza also needs a unit or two. The green boat near Santa Fe is empty. The red one (Brazil) probably has units in it.

----------------------------------------------------

My suggestion for the future is to keep our defenses up rather than trying to end the wars. The cost to end all wars is probably in the vicinity of 80-100 gpt. We may be able to slowly build up units. I would like to grab Brazil's Lux at some point. If we can go on the offensive we may be able to get the prices lower - at least for Brazil at any rate. Also the AI tends to get war fatigue and will lower prices if you stay at war long enough with no effect.

The advantage of this method is that we keep our gpt for research.

The cost of Currency and Construction was high, but with our economy completely stalled we needed the ability to build Infrastructure. We got 4 techs from it. We are 3 techs from the Middle Ages.

The only plus to the whole thing is that we got some elite units. We got about 8-10 elite victories but no leader.

Lee, I have inherited a lot of your AW saves and know you are good at strong defense. Basically, that is what this game calls for now with us building infrastructure and getting our economy up as well. The boats have been retreating - I think once we get all cities defended the boats will leave for good. I think this better than vast sums for peace. I hope we can get the price down eventually. I just hated turning off research. It seemed a losing strategy when we were so far behind.

Not sure even now if I handle things well or not. We are building Infra which we wouldn't have been able to do with paying out large sums for Aztec peace. However, we have cities (especially Stantiago del Estero) with whipping unhappines and have to constantly watch for landings.

It was late and I didn't MM at the end of the turn. It is probably worth checking things out before ending the turn.

The Save

 

[LKendter]

I could just make peace, but these small things may be sufficient. I don't want to turn off research entirely.
...
Otherwise, I would like to get the price down.

We get back our money form Venezuela when they get pulled in against us too.

Making peace with the Aztecs would have totally killed our research.

I am thoroughly disgusted. Was $23/turn really worth being at war with the whole continent? I don't even want to play in my own game anymore. The only reason I am even playing this turn is dropping from a game you sponsor would destroy the LK series.

I think this better than vast sums for peace.

Sorry, but I totally disagree with you on this. We now have a whole continent of people that hate us and are more likely to start wars in the future. This game has just become much harder then needed, and IMO the loss risk has increased.

Was frelling war happiness was worth this mess?


Signed up:
LKendter (currently playing)
Gyathaar (on deck)
Microbe
M60A3TTS
Romeothemonk (skip May 7th to May 20th)
Greebley


Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 hours to at complete.
5 to 10 turns starting with the industrial age. Once the game starts dragging 48 hours to at least report a status update.