LK135 - Dutch, monarchy, Hemispheres map

[Tatran]

My mid-term plan :
Fill our continent + some islands with cities.
If we don't the AIs will do it.
Research<->Gold : 50%-50%
Researching below 50% isn't desirable.

We need 2 missionaries, maybe 1 if religion spreads, for Ulundi.
So adopting a religion depends on the first religion in Ulundi to speed
up the priest points. We need those shrines to expand faster.

I agree to focus on happiness, so our commerce cities can grow.
Theatres, forges, temples and although we haven't stone but I like the Notre Dame wonder (2 happiness).

Techs :
1) Priesthood + Monarchy + Aesthetics + Drama (growth)
2) Civil Service (Bureaucracy) + Machinery + Compass + Optics (whales + 1 movement bonus)
3) Engineering (Notre Dame + extra movement)
4) Feudalism + Guilds + Banking
5) Polytheism + Literature (Heroic Epic)

Final goal :
Invading the other continents takes a lot of preparation + huge army/navy.
Creating colonies is fun, but the economy/production has to be re-directed
early to units only.
An easier way to victory is a peaceful one, space or diplomatic.

 

[Meiz]

400 AD
Convert to Confucianism for additional happyness.

430 AD
Research Priesthood in 1 turn. Whip Confucian monastery in capital.

445 AD
Start Aesthetics. Capital starts missionary.

550 AD
Start researching Drama.

610 AD
Missionary spreads Confucianism in Ulundi. Changed build to temple which should be whipped and priest assigned as soon as possible. When this happens, convert to Pacifism.

625 AD
Drama and cheap theatres are in. Start Civil Service which completes in 15 turns.

I skipped Monarchy, we can backfill it later when absolutely nessessary. Military polices + Pacifism don't go well together as njorls mentioned.

Research path should be Civil Service -> Machinery -> Compass -> Optics.

Settler is in place to establish our next city (marked City #1 in my last picture). Another settler is being builded.

Hopefully everyone thinks that we are going in right direction

 

[LKendter]

Hopefully everyone thinks that we are going in right direction

What about " We have hit a point I want to *halt* the game for a bit, and come up with a plan that is at least mid-range" was unclear?

I am very annoyed that you played already. I didn't feel we had a plan, and I still **don't** feel like we have a plan.
We didn't even agree on what religion we wanted IMHO.
I don't feel tech path was decided between ASAP optics and the drama path that was taken.

Missionary spreads Confucianism in Ulundi. Changed build to temple which should be whipped and priest assigned as soon as possible. When this happens, convert to Pacifism.

I don't understand what we gain by waiting. If Ulundi has our state religion, then why not revolt immediately. We will double the prophet from Oracle.


Game is still halted until I feel the team has solid plan.
I guess I need to start yelling this louder.

 

[Meiz]

What about " We have hit a point I want to *halt* the game for a bit, and come up with a plan that is at least mid-range" was unclear?

I am very annoyed that you played already. I didn't feel we had a plan, and I still **don't** feel like we have a plan.

Sorry for not waiting any further comments. I didn't realize that I would have to wait an official "Go" command. IMO we already have a very good mid-term plan.

We didn't even agree on what religion we wanted IMHO.

Is making your own decisions on things that are obvious disallowed in this game? We had Confusianism in most of our cities, Ulundi had none so we could choose which one to spread. So why should we choose Taoism instead of Confusianism? If we have to ask permission's for so simple decisions as this, I can't see much difference between SG and someone's single player.

I don't understand what we gain by waiting. If Ulundi has our state religion, then why not revolt immediately. We will double the prophet from Oracle.

My mistake, didn't remember Oracle in Ulundi.


All in all, sorry for not waiting any further.

 

[LKendter]

Sorry for not waiting any further comments. I didn't realize that I would have to wait an official "Go" command. IMO we already have a very good mid-term plan.

I apologize for yelling at you over playing. You have a valid point on my not being clear on the length of the wait. I should have been more explicit in wanting to stop indefinitely and plan.

Is making your own decisions on things that are obvious disallowed in this game? We had Confucianism in most of our cities; Ulundi had none so we could choose which one to spread. So why should we choose Taoism instead of Confucianism? If we have to ask permission's for so simple decisions as this, I can't see much difference between SG and someone's single player.

It is ok to make decisions on your own.

 

[Tatran]

I see no reason to halt the game.
I prefer long-term game play discussions.
It isn't convenient to stop in the middle of a turn-set and wait for input
from the other players and then continue.

An example :
During my last turn-set I knew we would get a Great General, but I didn't
ask what to do with him in the near future. Yena got the GG and had no plan,
because there hasn't been a discussion about the GG.
LK had the same problem and made a decision on his own.

An individual short-term decision is fine by me. Although this doesn't mean it is a good or bad decision.
The team should have discussed the problem before someone's turn-set. Looking back is always easier.
This way the player who is currently playing has some freedom and the chance to end his/her turn-set.


Back to the game :
With Pacifism + 1 temple we'll have the first Great Prophet in ~26 turns.
We need 1 or 2 triremes to counter/scouting barb galleys.
Nomamba + 's-Gravenhage can be set on worker/settler/units building while
other cities can build infrastructure.

 

[njorls]

I'm not much of a bean counter. The proposed research plan is Civil Service -> Machinery -> Compass -> Optics.

CS is 15 turns as of right now, Mach Compass Optics is 34 turns total.

I don't think CS will help us get optics faster, maybe getting optics first will let us trade for CS after we win circumnav. Or it can be next after caravels are on the way. Irrigation will be +1 food to Amsterdam's corn and Hague's rice right away though.

So overall I think CS can wait.

I like city #1 in Meiz's map, city #2 will need to either work 's-graven's corn or some farms to grow fast. City 3 would have no food surplus but it would grow slowly. There's a good city spot SW of the iron to the south that can get fish, iron, and 2 silks. It'd pay for itself fast enough. I'd propose going for that after city 1.

Not sure if this constitutes a 'mid game plan' or not.

 

[Meiz]

There are no breakers invested in Civil Service. We can go straight to Optics now if the team desires it.

 

[Meiz]

I like city #1 in Meiz's map, city #2 will need to either work 's-graven's corn or some farms to grow fast. City 3 would have no food surplus but it would grow slowly. There's a good city spot SW of the iron to the south that can get fish, iron, and 2 silks. It'd pay for itself fast enough. I'd propose going for that after city 1.

City #3 can wait but City #2 is close to capital and can bring lots of commerce. I was thinking about your proposed city as well so it's fine by me to settle that next

 

[LKendter]

I see no reason to halt the game.

At this point I agree. Much of the debate was how high a priority to optics. That debate is largely over as we already side tracked to construction and drama. It looks like I am going to have to post very detailed posts what I am looking for in the future. I wanted to debate the merits of ASAP optics, but that debate is voided by this turn as the other path was already taken.

 

[LKendter]

I suffered with a no contact game before, and by the time we found the civs we were locked out of the trading game. I really want to optics. All of these other techs IMHO are lower priority. At this point the debate is over, as drama and construction were already researched.

I forget who said it, but I agree we want to get a land route to the Zulu cities.

I still don't feel we have a clear plan, but go ahead and play Njorls.

We really need to start getting a strong tech position, as space looks like the logic victory for this map. If you want a different victory type lets start talking about it now, as that very much affects even our mid-term plans.

Roster
LKendter
Yena
Meiz
Njorls (currently playing)
Tatran (on deck)

Remember 15 peace / 10 war turns per round. STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 hours to complete.

Win target: open

Planned wars - none, as we have no contacts.

 

[Meiz]

I think Construction was necessary to eliminate Shaka. It also allowed us to build colosseums that provide happyness. That combined with very cheap theatres let's every city work additional cottages and that will affect directly to our research. I think it was very important to recover our economy and research rate after the war as soon as possible.

Other option would have been to suicide lots of units against Shaka's walls and waste lot's of hammers. Then slowly beeline to Optics.

I would say we probably would have been in the same tech situation in both cases, only first option is much better in the long run.

 

[LKendter]

I think Construction was necessary to eliminate Shaka.

Good point - I swear there some days I wish I said nothing.
Yesterday was one of them...

 

[njorls]

Turn 0 (215 total) Changed 's Gravenhage from settler to Tao Monastary. Convert to Pacifism.

Turn 1: Set research to Machinery
Nijmegen founded at city site #1

Turn 5: Whip courthouse in Rotterdam, whip monastary in 's-Grave

Turn 6: Start Theater in Utrecht, Library in Rotterdam, Tao Missionary in 's-Grave

Turn 7: Whip Market in Amsterdam

Turn 8: Taoism spreads to Nobamba

Turn 9: Whip temple in Ulundi, whip work boat in Nijmegen

Turn 10: Hire priest in Ulundi

Turn 13: Taoist Missionary fails to spread Taoism in Ulundi There's 2 turns left of settler in 's-Grave and the economy's good (surplus at 60%) and it's been on back burner a while and I didn't want to lose any hammers so I don't delay the settler any more to make another.
Lighthouse started in Ulundi since it didn't need a library (which was in queue)
There's an issue in The Hague, I didn't whip a theater hard enough and it'll grow unhappy. I hired a scientist here to prevent this but I don't want to keep him hired as he may generate another GS before Ulundi makes a 2nd GProphet. The next player can fire him when the coloseum is done
Christianity FIADL
Machinery in, research Compass

Turn 14: Courthouse whipped in Nobamba
Settler finished in 's-Grave, another hopefully luckier missionary started
Settler on way to settle SW of iron to south

We're at 102 gp, +16 per turn. I kept gold over 100 in case of some random event (are those on? I don't remember reading about any and there's none in the log. Game settings don't show that they're off.)
Utrecht is unhealthy, a workboat on the clam tile SE of 's-Grave would fix it
I didn't build any troops but didn't see any barbs either

 

[yena]

We really need to start getting a strong tech position, as space looks like the logic victory for this map. If you want a different victory type lets start talking about it now, as that very much affects even our mid-term plans.

I agree that space seems to be the best option, possibly with diplomacy as a back-up plan. Since the other guys have all the early religions, there should be opportunities for some diplomatic mischief once we get Optics and make contact.

 

[Meiz]

I swear there some days I wish I said nothing.
Yesterday was one of them...

I'll try to be more precise on what I read Just enjoying this so much that can't keep my hands off from the game

 

[LKendter]

New Updates
8 workers for 8 cities (9th about to found) with all this jungle aren't enough. We need more workers before another settler.

We are set toward optics. Once we can build caravels we want to get several of them out there, and IMHO they should be the #1 priority for 's-Gravenhage.

Do we want the GT in Ulundi? It has a ton of food, and little cottages. I see no other good site, but could be missing something.


Roster
LKendter (on deck)
Yena
Meiz
Njorls
Tatran (currently playing)

Remember 15 peace / 10 war turns per round. STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 hours to complete.

Win target: open

Planned wars - none, as we have no contacts.

 

[Tatran]

850 AD (0)
Whip workboat in 's-Gravenhage.

870 AD (2)
Research : Compass is known -> Optics

880 AD (3)
Maastricht founded.
Whip worker in 's-Gravenhage.
Whip workboat in Nomamba.

900 AD (5)
Taoism has been spread in Ulundi.

930 AD (8)
Whip temple in the Hague.

940 AD (9)
Whip temple in Ulundi.

950 AD (10)
Research : Optics is known -> Civil Service

960 AD (11)
Whip granary in Nijmegen.

970 AD (12)
Whip worker in 's-Gravenhage.

980 AD (13)

990 AD (14)

Whip worker in Nomamba.

1000 AD (15)
Whip granary in Maastricht.

We'll get our first Great Prophet next turn.

 

[Meiz]

Can you post what kind of tech lead Churchill has? Don't have access to game right now.

 

[njorls]

We have CoL, Aesthetics and Compass on Winnie, he has poly and monarchy that we need so I say we're tech lead over him. And Kublai's pretty pathetic.