LK147 - world map, China

[ToddMarshall]

Looks pretty good.

Not sure about the temple rush, but I get the why. Not sure about continuing to buy workers at this point.

I realize they slow down the AI and they pay off eventually, but they are so slow compared to our industrious ones. I'd have thought we'd be capturing lots of these in the war. Maybe they are more useful than I remember.

I'd have to open up the save (which I can't do) to comment about the Ta-Tu situation, but if there is any way to get that city, it would be a huge boost.

Regarding the chopping of the silks, the tundra one was chopped when I got it. The grass one was chopped so we could irrigate the tile later. IIRC we can replant forest, yes? We just cant get shields from rechopping the same tile. If so, I'd just replant the tundra one.

 

[LKendter]

Not sure about continuing to buy workers at this point.

It was an excuse to get some value from our silks. The last thing I want is a demand from somebody like the Aztecs, our trade route gets broken, and we are screwed big time.

 

[ToddMarshall]

Makes sense then.

 

[CKS]

I don't understand why we'd want the FP in Africa or Europe. One moderately uncorrupt city out in the middle of a bunch of science farms does little good, in my opinion. I'd like it farther away than we can build it now, but a lot closer than Europe.

We can replant forest at engineering.

 

[ToddMarshall]

I assume he's talking about eastern Europe (like Ukrane) which would probably be ok. Since he and Greebley have played this map several times, I'll defer to their judgement on how far away the FP should be.

 

[Greebley]

I got it. Hope to play today.

 

[Greebley]

Preturn: Looked good I didn't change anything.

IBT: Sun Tzu completed by Babylon and Knight Templar by Russia.

230 AD: I head toward Ta-tu with the Armies.

IBT One of our silks got pillaged. I didn't notice the danger - though there was nothing we could have done about it as we have no offensive units to dislodge the Spear.

250 AD: Capture Ta-tu. Move in Settler. Protect other silk by moving Spear
We are safe this round from counter attacks so I will see what happens. With all our cash, we can get close to peace + map + construction + currency. If we took one more town we may be able to do it. I will continue the war until I am in danger or I can get a deal like above. Either one could happen first.

260 AD: We meet Brazil who could trade with us! This is great. They even have Map Making (and Philosophy). They aren't in danger of learning all the techs so I don't think peace needs to be immediate. Will still try to milk the Mongols for tech.
Replace Ta-tu with Ta-Tu-Two

IBT: See Iroquois fight presumably America. See Mongols be attacked and attack someone else! No wonder they are struggling and moving strangely.

270 AD: Attack Almarikh with a sword killing a Pike. Kill 3 border units after bombardment. Meet Argentina who are down Currency.

IBT: See that it is Persia who is at war with the Mongols.

280 AD: Capture Ereen.

IBT Sistine is Completed

290 AD: Mostly rest or move up turn.

300 AD: Attack Amarikh, Hovid. Capture Tsetserleg and two Workers.

IBT: Demand from Catherine. We give 29 gold.

310 AD: Amarikh and Hovid captured. Get two more Cats.
Difficult decision time. Krakatorum is within reach now but our armies are injured. Check and Argentina got Currency, but Brazil is still offering the 2 techs for trade. Decide Pyramids is worth the wait. We will get the trade with Brazil but it puts off map-making. Worst case will be if Persia gets the city instead, but it seems worth the gamble.

IBT: Not much. The Mongols are really hurting now.

320 AD: Amarikh is big enough that I replace it. It becomes Ningpo. Armies heal.
I successfully bombard the Iron square the Mongols still own

IBT: Well crud. The Persians grabbed Karakakorum.

330 AD: Might as well make peace. We trade 20 gold and Peace for Construction, Currency, Lit, and Code of Laws.
We then trade Construction for Philosophy and Map Making.

Got caught off guard by peace and we don't have a settler ready. It will be 3 turns in Canton. We can make the Galley next turn.
Apologies if we miss Japan but a small amount.

Switch other cities to non-military. Even if we want to declare war, we have enough units and need improvements now.
I keep the temples. Harbors are 1/2 price so we go for those in towns not building temples.

We spotted the Zulu. They are up on techs.

IBT: Leo's is finally finished. I think that ends the Wonder cascades.

340 AD: We have 2 turns until we get Poly and can see the next age. I will take those 2 turns so we can see the next age tech position and decide if we want one of those or Monarchy or Republic.

Mongols are falling to both Persia and Egypt. No wonder the war was so easy on my turns.

Germany and France appear to be fighting. Note that we would like to take Berlin and the Great Library.

IBT: Babylon and Germany made an Alliance vs France.

350 AD: Move units about more towards the front.\

IBT: There are Persian units moving past our town and to the north. Presumably they are going for the Mongols, but keep an ey on them
We make it to the next age.
Spot a Settler on Japan. I think we will miss the Iron, but may be able to take some of it.


360 AD:
Well I didn't get the settler on the boat yet. It can move 2 and hop onto the boat next turn. A miscalculation on my part.

Notes:

We currently have 19 towns, and 2 settlers. We could build one on Japan and the other near Hovid/Ningpo. Getting more towns would give more cash due to greater unit support.

Tech situation - There are 5 techs we can see Republic, Monarchy, Feudalism, Engineering, Monotheism. 3 are govt techs and 50% more expensive (almost better to self research).

Mongols, Egypt, Babylon, Russia, Persia, France, Germany, India, Zululand have them all.
Greece doesn't have Feudalism.
America, Aztecs, Australia don't have Engineering.
Iroquois are missing Feudalism and Engineering.
Venezuala is missing all 3 middle age techs.
Argentina only has Republic
Brazil is primitive and a non-contender.

Trading is going to be nearly impossible though. The silks deal with Persia ruined our rep it seems. I thought when we got pillaged, we would lose our silks but this is not what happened. Instead our deal with Persia for the worker got broken instead. I suspect everyone that knew Persia at that time will not trade per turn deals. So for example, Argentina still will.
Not sure if Persia and Argentina meet whether they will no longer trade with us or will still be ok.
Mongols will trade per turn because they are currently at war with Persia.

I think we should start working on our own research because we have govt techs and ruined rep issues. I am starting some libraries for this. Lets build infrastructure for now and consider a war with a weak civ at some point in the future. I prefer to leave the Mongols alone for 20 turns because we made the deal, but they could be the target after that if still around.. Someone without Iron or can't build Knights is a possibility as well.

So some decisions:
1) Do we want to start full science now? I would say yes. The techs are still 50 turns at positive money, but that will change once we have libraries and markets. Monarcy becomes 43 turns at 30% science and Republic becomes 48 turns which is -9 gold. However, I am not at all sure this is the best decision. Saving gold and

2) Do we want to take the Republic or Monarchy path?

Monarchy is better for a war-like game where we try to have a war going on. We take many cities and build science farms using scientists in corrupt cities. This is the strategy I am personally used to, as I play Always War a lot.

Republic would be if we want only occasional wars that are not to extinction. The bonus gold means fewer towns can generate similar science, but wars have to be short due to war weariness.

Not sure I have a strong opinion here.

3) What do we research next? Monarchy/Republic allows us to switch sooner. Feudalism is very strong trading tech, but will all civs have the tech before we get it? If aren't doing full science I don't think it should be republic or Monarchy because we will want them before 50 turns. We also want Feudalism for Pikes (and later knights).

I would guess Monarchy would take about 30 turns total and Republic 5 more than that if we did full science.

 

[Greebley]

One final comment:

I have seen and followed advice about not connecting up more than one of a resource in the early game and this game demonstrates why that strategy is sound. Because we had two connected we felt we needed to trade it before it got demanded away. However, it is really fragile - more fragile than I thought - in that we lost the deal and not our own use of the lux.

I know I have followed this in the past, but had forgotten just how important it is.

 

[LKendter]

I know I have followed this in the past, but had forgotten just how important it is.

I forgot this also - rust really showed.
Painful to have a screwed rep this early. This is way to early to survive on self-research.

 

[LKendter]

My vote for government is monarchy. I recall how painfully long anarchy is in Civ3, and don't want to deal with 2+ rounds of it if we go with Republic short term. Domination will require a LOT of warfare.

The Songhai is the only contact left to get. I am not sure if we can find another backwards civ there.

Do we want to give Mongolia silks for $141? With our situation screwed on trading, I hate to leave money in AI hands. We need to scrounge every possible source of cash / money. We should keep an eye on Brazil getting enough cash to be worth giving a tech for. I want more than $68 from him. With extra cash we could afford a higher cash loss rate and leave money around for demands.

We have sleeping workers by Ta-Tu Two. Please wake them, and put them to work.

I have no question our next war will be one of opportunity. If we see a dog pile forming vs. India, Egypt (those decent cities near Hovd), or Persia we want to be in position to take advantage. CKS should work on starting to shuffle troops to get our elites and armies near that front. I am not sure which city is the best to stack in.

The Mongolia dog pile helped a lot in ancient era, and now we need to figure out how to get to the next one.


ROSTER:
Around ten turns is fine. If key points are a turn or two before / after, feel free to adjust that count.

LKendter (on deck)
Todd Marshall (swapped) (skip 11/2 to 11/5)
Greebley (just played)
CKS (up)

 

[CKS]

I've got the save.

Monarchy is fine with me.

I don't think our rep was broken when the silks were pillaged. I think something broke the trade route. I've lost my own lux lots of times when one lux was pillaged; the other tribe always kept theirs. The Mongols could have pillaged something in Persian lands that broke the deal. One could check the autosaves, I suppose, but it really doesn't matter.

I'll move troops and watch for opportunities to stab a neighbor in the back.

Research monarchy or engineering? I think everyone will have feudalism before we get it, but engineering might not be everywhere. I lean toward monarchy, so we can get out of despotism.

When we have lack of opportunity elsewhere, shall we start ICSing Siberia with single-scientist towns?

 

[LKendter]

When we have lack of opportunity elsewhere, shall we start ICSing Siberia with single-scientist towns?

The AI already has all the nearby Siberia towns, so don't bother.

 

[ToddMarshall]

Its probably too l but from my experience with t hawk and charis republic plus oscilating war is the way to go esp. With the rep issue and selg research

 

[Greebley]

I think both Monarchy and Republic are viable strategies. I will also vote Monarchy because I know it better and because its stronger on large maps. Large maps with really slow tech speeds make Republic less strong because you can't possibly get Philosophy first, unlike a standard map. The huge scales can make wars much harder if you have to keep stopping them. It is also harder to keep AI cities in Republic because of flips which add a lot of war weariness. Taking a lot of very large cities and keeping them to turn into science farms can give as big a boost to science that offsets Republic advantage. - if one captures 10 size 12 cities with half scientists (large scale games also will go past Rails) and you have boosted your science by 10*3*6 = 180 in just a few turns. Replacing all these cities instead means they start at size 1 and don't have aqueducts.

In fact the bigger the map the stronger the Monarchy strategy becomes, IMO.

 

[CKS]

Boring Turn Log:

Spoiler :

Turn 0:
Switch Nanking to settler - growth is stalled.
IBT: Persians pull back. Tsingtao builds a harbor, starts a settler.

Turn 1:
Forgot to trade with Mongols; trade now: silks for 47 g plus a worker. Settler goes west; other settler gets on boat. We need more settlers - we are building awfully loosely.
IBT: Zulu declare out of the blue, kill a curragh and lose a galley. Persia and Babylon sign a military alliance against France.

Turn 2:
India is still wandering on Japan. Send the galley so we can get the iron if they keep wandering. Settler goes S of Beijing.
IBT: India settles.

Turn 3:
Build Paoting.
IBT: Babylon allies with Zulu against the Australians. Greece declares on Babylon.

Turn 4:
Build Macao, Yangchow. Rush a settler and a library.
IBT: Cleo demands 33 g.

Turn 5:
Not much.
IBT: Nothing.

Turn 6:
Not much.
IBT: Greeks demand horses; I give in, then wish I hadn't.

Turn 7:
Not much.
IBT: Lots of tribes start Copes and Bach's.

Turn 8:
ZZZ
Turn 9: Build Anyang.

Turn 10: ZZZ

Monarchy is due in 15 turns at -15 gpt (which will drop when our settlers settle, one on the island off Tsingtao and one SW of Ta-Tu Two). We need more settlers, and we need to settle more closely.

None of the nearby tribes has gotten involved in anything new that I can see. We could invest in some embassies, perhaps. Babylon is in several wars, but they don't have much local property.

We are at war with the Zulu. They will talk, but aren't interested in peace.

Four or five tribes have astronomy.

 

[LKendter]

IBT: Zulu declare out of the blue, kill a curragh and lose a galley.

I am not to surprised. I've seen this happen before when an exploring boat has been in AI waters to long, and no nearby place to boot us to. The aggresive Zulu seem to do this a lot.

We need more settlers, and we need to settle more closely.

On large maps like this you need to be careful with tight builds. You can hit the 512 city limit.


ROSTER:
LKendter (up and got it)
Todd Marshall (on deck?) (skip 11/2 to 11/5)
Greebley (just played)
CKS

 

[ToddMarshall]

I have access to my civ computer again. Consider me officially on deck.

EDIT: Now that our rep is busted anyhow, is there any reason not to hook up the other silk and trade Cleo Silks for Wines? She has 2 extra and will do it. I checked.

 

[CKS]

On large maps like this you need to be careful with tight builds. You can hit the 512 city limit.

We are currently very far from the limit, we have lots of tiles in our cultural boundaries that we can't work (some of them nice tiles), and we are paying a lot in unit support. If we need to abandon cities later, we can, though I think we can build rather tighter without running into problems.

30 shields for a settler for a useless city gives us 1 gpt plus unit support plus 2 gpt or 3 bpt from a specialist; I think this pays off fairly quickly even if it will eventually be disbanded. Building useless cities is something we should only do when we have nothing better to build, but financially it is a good deal.


I'm in favor of hooking up the silks and trading.

 

[ToddMarshall]

I'm against ICS for the sake of ICS. It's an exploit of the game engine, and I personally want no part of that. Planting cities WHERE THERE IS REASONABLE ROOM, junk or not, or to get a resource that we can trade (we can still trade lux for lux or any resources for gpt, even with a busted rep) is perfectly fine, of course.

 

[CKS]

I'm fine with not ICSing (which I personally have no feelings on, but rarely do), but I'm a lot more comfortable with 10-15 tiles per city than 25 tiles per city.