LK38 - PTW, Deity Challenge
- Thread starter LKendter
- Start date
From what I can tell, they didn't settle anywhere near our territory. They may have ended up as one of those nomadic AI settler/spear pairs that ceaselessly wander in search of a new home until they are picked-off by the enemy during a war.
Gothmog
Dread Enforcer
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2002
- Messages
- 3,352
Preturn: activate warrior fortified on ruins in south east. Send him to be a paper cutout. I look over the granary cities and notice they are allready MMed to build before growth. 
I check diplo and everything looks good. Click...
The good news: we can now trade with India; the bad news: someone already sold them Iron :rant: Although there are brokering opportunities we cannot afford them at the moment.
I move some more troops east in case of Korean attack. I also hook up some SP and start some muskets. Russia demands wine, I refuse. Germany wants MA vs. Russia, again I refuse. I could trade wine/SP/108+20gpt to India for Navagation, but Banking is a better barter so I hold off. Next turn the mongols get Chem and Banking so I pull the trigger. Wine/SP/123+15gpt to India for Nav, then Nav to the Vikes for Chiv+16+2gpt+TM. I also sell around our WM and get 12 gold!
Our first musket completes, I start a Knight. The Korean mini SOD leaves our territory to the north, and the Korean spear/settler leaves to the south.
I swap Nora to a market because I am feeling better about Korea. There is a massive Mongol troop movement through our territory, watch out Germany! Persia starts Smiths.
Woah, the Mongols seem to have changed targets! Watch out Korea, there is a stack next to Kaesong now. Yup, next turn the Mongols declare war (dishonorably) and take Kaesong as well as the spear/settler pair on the ruins and another couple of workers. Germany and Russia come to peace.
We complete our first Knight! My trigger finger veritably burns with desire to declare war on Korea and take back what is rightfully ours (the light blue dot). I demure because this is my last full turn. The Persians, Vikes and Mongols all start Bachs.
Final turn, I left our Knight and a couple of other troops ready to go! There is a horse that can be upgraded in Utica. The mongols will give us 129+2 gpt for a MA vs Korea. I say.. go man go! :saiyan:
Oh yeah, the save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/lk38-400ad.zip
Enjoy!
I check diplo and everything looks good. Click...The good news: we can now trade with India; the bad news: someone already sold them Iron :rant: Although there are brokering opportunities we cannot afford them at the moment.
I move some more troops east in case of Korean attack. I also hook up some SP and start some muskets. Russia demands wine, I refuse. Germany wants MA vs. Russia, again I refuse. I could trade wine/SP/108+20gpt to India for Navagation, but Banking is a better barter so I hold off. Next turn the mongols get Chem and Banking so I pull the trigger. Wine/SP/123+15gpt to India for Nav, then Nav to the Vikes for Chiv+16+2gpt+TM. I also sell around our WM and get 12 gold!
Our first musket completes, I start a Knight. The Korean mini SOD leaves our territory to the north, and the Korean spear/settler leaves to the south.
I swap Nora to a market because I am feeling better about Korea. There is a massive Mongol troop movement through our territory, watch out Germany! Persia starts Smiths.Woah, the Mongols seem to have changed targets! Watch out Korea, there is a stack next to Kaesong now. Yup, next turn the Mongols declare war (dishonorably) and take Kaesong as well as the spear/settler pair on the ruins and another couple of workers. Germany and Russia come to peace.
We complete our first Knight! My trigger finger veritably burns with desire to declare war on Korea and take back what is rightfully ours (the light blue dot). I demure because this is my last full turn. The Persians, Vikes and Mongols all start Bachs.
Final turn, I left our Knight and a couple of other troops ready to go! There is a horse that can be upgraded in Utica. The mongols will give us 129+2 gpt for a MA vs Korea. I say.. go man go! :saiyan:
Oh yeah, the save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/lk38-400ad.zip
Enjoy!
I'm at work and can't view the saved game. However, I would like to register a vote against going to war at this time. We have a good chance of flipping Mooville without a war, although foregoing war for the chance of a good RNG roll is not my intent. I just think we don't gain a whole lot by starting a war at this point relative to upsetting Korea for the rest of the game.
Gothmog
Dread Enforcer
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2002
- Messages
- 3,352
Flipping mooville? I am guessing not. Here's why:
P=[(F+T)*Cc*H*(Cte/Cty) - G]/D.
We have 3 of their tiles under our control (T=3), but I am guessing they have more culture than us and will have for the rest of the game. So with a relatively small garrison (G) we will never flip them, because P=0 for G=3*(Cte/Cty) regardless of D (D=distance from respective capitals). The AI is currently pretty good about garrisons.
Now is the time to strike (IMO). We can upgrade our horse, get a MA with the mongols, and declare this turn. Next turn move in and take 'mooville' with our two knights (The Koreans just sent a settler and a couple of spears out of the city and probably don't have more than 2 defenders), thus satisfying our MA. Then we sit for 19 turns and hopefully get some concessions for peace! This would be an honorable war and we wouldn't even have to set off our Golden Age (although now might be a good time, i'm undecided). I am looking hard and not seeing a downside to this, Korea won't be too upset by an honorable war, and we will no longer have any cultural pressure with them. I am guessing we break even on Korean attitude in 500 years and as a bonus the mongols will love us!
Also, we need to get a leg up or we will be whipping boys to the mongols for a long time.
Not to mention that seeing another culture in our original dotmap and rightful homeland pisses me off.
P=[(F+T)*Cc*H*(Cte/Cty) - G]/D.
We have 3 of their tiles under our control (T=3), but I am guessing they have more culture than us and will have for the rest of the game. So with a relatively small garrison (G) we will never flip them, because P=0 for G=3*(Cte/Cty) regardless of D (D=distance from respective capitals). The AI is currently pretty good about garrisons.
Now is the time to strike (IMO). We can upgrade our horse, get a MA with the mongols, and declare this turn. Next turn move in and take 'mooville' with our two knights (The Koreans just sent a settler and a couple of spears out of the city and probably don't have more than 2 defenders), thus satisfying our MA. Then we sit for 19 turns and hopefully get some concessions for peace! This would be an honorable war and we wouldn't even have to set off our Golden Age (although now might be a good time, i'm undecided). I am looking hard and not seeing a downside to this, Korea won't be too upset by an honorable war, and we will no longer have any cultural pressure with them. I am guessing we break even on Korean attitude in 500 years and as a bonus the mongols will love us!
Also, we need to get a leg up or we will be whipping boys to the mongols for a long time.
Not to mention that seeing another culture in our original dotmap and rightful homeland pisses me off.
You're right about the culture difference between our two civs. I was foolishly thinking of the Germans' blue on the culture graph, not the blue of the Koreans. 
If we do go to war (and I don't strongly object), we should think about taking out all of the Korean cities near our homeland. If memory serves, there are three total. Do we have the firepower to do that? We need to have at least four Knights and a couple of NuMes to go after Mooville. Because of the variance of the RNG, I hate attacking a city with the bare minimum of offensive units. If we trigger our GA taking Mooville, I think the answer will be "yes" to the firepower question before the end of the GA, because we should be able to spit out several Knights during that time. Unless we think we are going to add to our second core of cities (attack the Mongols now? yeah, right) sometime soon, there seems to be little value in waiting to trigger the GA. I presume by now that we have markets and courthouses in our core cities and are in a good position to benefit from the additional trade and production a GA will bring.
What does everyone else think?
If we do go to war (and I don't strongly object), we should think about taking out all of the Korean cities near our homeland. If memory serves, there are three total. Do we have the firepower to do that? We need to have at least four Knights and a couple of NuMes to go after Mooville. Because of the variance of the RNG, I hate attacking a city with the bare minimum of offensive units. If we trigger our GA taking Mooville, I think the answer will be "yes" to the firepower question before the end of the GA, because we should be able to spit out several Knights during that time. Unless we think we are going to add to our second core of cities (attack the Mongols now? yeah, right) sometime soon, there seems to be little value in waiting to trigger the GA. I presume by now that we have markets and courthouses in our core cities and are in a good position to benefit from the additional trade and production a GA will bring.
What does everyone else think?
Sirian
Designer, Mohawk Games
Of course the Mongols will pay us. We had an ongoing deal with Korea on my turn. Mongolia would love nothing more than to throw a few coins at us to pay us to dribble away thousands on future tech deals, because our reputation is in the drink. Paegam is nowhere near worth enduring trading penalties long term. I don't object to an attack or an alliance, but I do object to breaking a deal with so little at stake. Let the deal expire first, then decide whether to go to war, or to renew and wait at least another 20 turns.
If Korea had attacked us, then the stain would go to them. If we sign an alliance and declare with a deal active, we'll be unable to use resources or gpt as payment for tech: AI's will all demand cash, or worse, if they do accept gpt it will be at ridiculous prices. That's an even larger penalty on deity than at lower levels, since we're playing from behind. The cost can be more than just "waiting a little longer" to accumulate the cash to pay for techs. Brokering opportunities are usually a now-or-never option. Having credit on hand to make a bigger move can literally mean free techs.
I still think Paegam is worth acquiring, just not at all costs.
- Sirian
If Korea had attacked us, then the stain would go to them. If we sign an alliance and declare with a deal active, we'll be unable to use resources or gpt as payment for tech: AI's will all demand cash, or worse, if they do accept gpt it will be at ridiculous prices. That's an even larger penalty on deity than at lower levels, since we're playing from behind. The cost can be more than just "waiting a little longer" to accumulate the cash to pay for techs. Brokering opportunities are usually a now-or-never option. Having credit on hand to make a bigger move can literally mean free techs.
I still think Paegam is worth acquiring, just not at all costs.
- Sirian
I've got the file and would like to wait to play until we can come to some sort of consensus on the potential war. I would be in favor of letting the deal with Korea expire and then getting in on a war against them. In the meantime, we could build (rushbuy?) several more knights, MI, and NuMe (or muskets?). Assuming that we attack and take all the Korean stains on our rightful land in the first turn or two, I would think that we would expect them to start ferrying troops across the water. Perhaps we could then destroy all landed troops with our Knights (on attack) and NuMe/Muskets and then use the GA to get banks in our core and beef up our defenses against future aggression from Mr. Khan or anyone else.
Gothmog
Dread Enforcer
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2002
- Messages
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I agree with letting the deal expire, it must be allmost done anyway since I went through my turn since it started (it will expire during your turns Speaker). That will give us time to build up enough knights to be absolutely sure. Of course if any Korean troops enter our territory you could ask them to leave, and I am sure they will.
IT 400AD: Survey the empire. Our deal with Korea, spices for 12gpt expires in 5 turns. I upgrade our horseman to a Knight for 80 gold. We are at least 4 techs behind all of the other civs except Germany who is two ahead, but does not have Navigation. ROP deal renewed with the Vikings, but changed from 3gpt to 1gpt plus 17 gold. In 5 turns most of our deals will be expiring and we should be able to catch up in tech. MM of several cities improves income to 9gpt.
Early Turns: Mongol units continue on toward Germany. Theveste finishes marketplace and starts knight. Now up to 27gpt. Trade Otto Navigation, our WM, 20gpt, and 9 gold for Banking. Hippo builds Aqueduct and starts Knight. Cadiz builds Harbor and starts barracks. Mongols have destroyed one German city and the horde moves on. Korea declares war on the Persians. Magna builds Marketplace and starts Barracks. Sabratha builds Courthouse and starts Knight.
Middle Turns: Minor builds Aqueduct and starts Barracks. Germany is now Gracious with us. Two deals with Gandhi expire and we are now making 79gpt. Germany now (somehow) has Music Theory and Economics. India offers the far best price for Chemistry, at 63gpt and 53 gold, as opposed to 72gpt from everyone else. I hold off brokering for one turn to make sure we can afford to renew all of our luxury deals which expire next turn. I pull the trigger on the deal with Gandhi, giving him 53gpt, 137 gold, and our WM for Chemistry, which I then trade to Germany with 22gpt and our WM for Economics and Music Theory. The others have Printing Press (which we finish in 20 turns) and Metallurgy ahead of us, and Persia also has Physics. We have 4 Knights, 2 NuMe, and a Musketman in Nora for the attack on Paegam. I dial up Wang Kon and cancel our spices for 12gpt deal. I declare war honorably. This is very strange. Before I declared war on Korea, Genghis Khan was willing to sign an alliance for 2gpt and Xerxes was willing to sign and pay us 30 gold. After I declared war on Korea by telling Wang Kon first, Genghis Khan upgrades to Gracious and then requires 25gpt for an alliance! Xerxes is also Gracious and requires 20gpt for the alliance. Seeing as that is our entire income, I choose not to do it. I am not sure if this was weedy play on my part, but I was operating under the understanding that an honorable declaration of war required telling the Leader to his face that you were declaring war, with no troops in his land. Am I wrong here and should I have declared war by signing the alliance? If so, I am sorry. Our veteran Kniggit kills their regular Musketman, losing 1 hp. Their second defender is a spearman, so I move two NuMe into their territory with the goal of setting off our GA as we take Paegam. It seems like the AI has a jerk meter, as Xerxes, Genghis, and Ragnar finally cancel our overexpired luxury deals, forcing me to give them some extra gpt to renew. The Mongol horde has changed directions and now heads toward our territory. I am a little concerned. I assume they are heading toward Paegam, but if they sneak attack us, we are in serious trouble. Our NuMe attacks Paegam and wins, setting off our GA (in 460AD). Paegam is now ours, along with 3 Korean slaves. Paegam has 5 resistors, so I garrison it with 2 warriors and a NuMe (do not want to lose any Kniggits in the remote chance of a flip. I reroute three Kniggits to Utica to "protect" us if the Mongols are out for blood. As the GA starts, we are now making 131gpt. India now has Physics and we can get it for 85gpt. I buy in @3rd and then sell it to Genghis Khan for 55gpt, 90 gold, and his WM, to Ragnar with 80 gold and our WM for Metallurgy, and then trade Physics to Otto for Printing Press, 1 gold, and his WM. Our lone scientist starts imagining a government where people govern themselves. Imagine. The Mongols, Persians, and Indians have Military Tradition, and Persia also has Magnetism. Cathy, for some reason, is now annoyed with us. With only 2 cities, she should back off. The Mongol horde heads back out of our territory. Nora builds an Aqueduct and starts a Marketplace. Hadrumetum also builds an Aqueduct and starts a Marketplace. Our Palace gets some new steps. We have now passed Germany on the histograph and are approaching India. India and the Mongols have allied against Germany. Leptis Minor builds a barracks and starts a Marketplace. Cadiz builds Barracks and starts a Musketman. Cirta builds a Marketplace and starts a Barracks. Korea builds Copernicus in Cheju sending the cascade toward Adam Smith and JS Bach. Carthage and Utica both train Musketmen and begin Banks.
Late Turns: I trade Gandhi 65gpt and 216 gold for Magnetism and then trade Magnetism to Ragnar with 8gpt for Military Tradition. We are now at tech parity with everyone, and ahead of Germany by Metallurgy and Magnetism and ahead of Russia by a whole lot. Indian settler/spear pair starts into our territory, probably heading toward the razed German city. I decided not to fill in that space because it would be cultural suicide, with Mongol cities all around, as Moscow has fallen to the Mongol horde. Tech parity does not last long as India and Persia now have Democracy and Theory of Gravity and the Mongols and Vikings both have Democracy. We cannot afford a trade as of now. Hippo builds a Barracks and starts a Musketman. Mongol Cavalry make their first appearance in the field. Stuttgart has been razed. Theory of Gravity is now available for 76gpt and 133 gold, feel free to take it if you want LK. Small bit of weed at the end as I let Paegam slip into disorder as its resistance ends. I avoided starving it, but probably should have hired another entertainer. Then again, I didn't know the resistance would end this turn and put the city into disorder. In any event, it's no big deal.
Conclusion: I have started a bank in Sabratha, but I think that a palace should be started there very soon (probably after the bank finishes) as a prebuild for ToE, which is rapidly approaching. We should also consider starting Universities in our core, either as prebuilds for factories or to start doing our own research sometime in the Industrial Age, and to get some sort of culture in our uncivilized society. Defensively, we are starting to get in decent shape and once we build factories, we should be able to crank out a whole lot of Cavalry. Good Luck to LK.
PS: Remember that we do not have any military alliances, so we can make peace with Korea at any time. I saw no Korean units come our way after we took Paegam and we have no hint of war weariness. As an aside, how did Persia get so powerful, being isolated for so long? Without trading tech advances, how could they have possibly kept up with the furious pace?
Edit: File changed to here: LK38, 500AD
Early Turns: Mongol units continue on toward Germany. Theveste finishes marketplace and starts knight. Now up to 27gpt. Trade Otto Navigation, our WM, 20gpt, and 9 gold for Banking. Hippo builds Aqueduct and starts Knight. Cadiz builds Harbor and starts barracks. Mongols have destroyed one German city and the horde moves on. Korea declares war on the Persians. Magna builds Marketplace and starts Barracks. Sabratha builds Courthouse and starts Knight.
Middle Turns: Minor builds Aqueduct and starts Barracks. Germany is now Gracious with us. Two deals with Gandhi expire and we are now making 79gpt. Germany now (somehow) has Music Theory and Economics. India offers the far best price for Chemistry, at 63gpt and 53 gold, as opposed to 72gpt from everyone else. I hold off brokering for one turn to make sure we can afford to renew all of our luxury deals which expire next turn. I pull the trigger on the deal with Gandhi, giving him 53gpt, 137 gold, and our WM for Chemistry, which I then trade to Germany with 22gpt and our WM for Economics and Music Theory. The others have Printing Press (which we finish in 20 turns) and Metallurgy ahead of us, and Persia also has Physics. We have 4 Knights, 2 NuMe, and a Musketman in Nora for the attack on Paegam. I dial up Wang Kon and cancel our spices for 12gpt deal. I declare war honorably. This is very strange. Before I declared war on Korea, Genghis Khan was willing to sign an alliance for 2gpt and Xerxes was willing to sign and pay us 30 gold. After I declared war on Korea by telling Wang Kon first, Genghis Khan upgrades to Gracious and then requires 25gpt for an alliance! Xerxes is also Gracious and requires 20gpt for the alliance. Seeing as that is our entire income, I choose not to do it. I am not sure if this was weedy play on my part, but I was operating under the understanding that an honorable declaration of war required telling the Leader to his face that you were declaring war, with no troops in his land. Am I wrong here and should I have declared war by signing the alliance? If so, I am sorry. Our veteran Kniggit kills their regular Musketman, losing 1 hp. Their second defender is a spearman, so I move two NuMe into their territory with the goal of setting off our GA as we take Paegam. It seems like the AI has a jerk meter, as Xerxes, Genghis, and Ragnar finally cancel our overexpired luxury deals, forcing me to give them some extra gpt to renew. The Mongol horde has changed directions and now heads toward our territory. I am a little concerned. I assume they are heading toward Paegam, but if they sneak attack us, we are in serious trouble. Our NuMe attacks Paegam and wins, setting off our GA (in 460AD). Paegam is now ours, along with 3 Korean slaves. Paegam has 5 resistors, so I garrison it with 2 warriors and a NuMe (do not want to lose any Kniggits in the remote chance of a flip. I reroute three Kniggits to Utica to "protect" us if the Mongols are out for blood. As the GA starts, we are now making 131gpt. India now has Physics and we can get it for 85gpt. I buy in @3rd and then sell it to Genghis Khan for 55gpt, 90 gold, and his WM, to Ragnar with 80 gold and our WM for Metallurgy, and then trade Physics to Otto for Printing Press, 1 gold, and his WM. Our lone scientist starts imagining a government where people govern themselves. Imagine. The Mongols, Persians, and Indians have Military Tradition, and Persia also has Magnetism. Cathy, for some reason, is now annoyed with us. With only 2 cities, she should back off. The Mongol horde heads back out of our territory. Nora builds an Aqueduct and starts a Marketplace. Hadrumetum also builds an Aqueduct and starts a Marketplace. Our Palace gets some new steps. We have now passed Germany on the histograph and are approaching India. India and the Mongols have allied against Germany. Leptis Minor builds a barracks and starts a Marketplace. Cadiz builds Barracks and starts a Musketman. Cirta builds a Marketplace and starts a Barracks. Korea builds Copernicus in Cheju sending the cascade toward Adam Smith and JS Bach. Carthage and Utica both train Musketmen and begin Banks.
Late Turns: I trade Gandhi 65gpt and 216 gold for Magnetism and then trade Magnetism to Ragnar with 8gpt for Military Tradition. We are now at tech parity with everyone, and ahead of Germany by Metallurgy and Magnetism and ahead of Russia by a whole lot. Indian settler/spear pair starts into our territory, probably heading toward the razed German city. I decided not to fill in that space because it would be cultural suicide, with Mongol cities all around, as Moscow has fallen to the Mongol horde. Tech parity does not last long as India and Persia now have Democracy and Theory of Gravity and the Mongols and Vikings both have Democracy. We cannot afford a trade as of now. Hippo builds a Barracks and starts a Musketman. Mongol Cavalry make their first appearance in the field. Stuttgart has been razed. Theory of Gravity is now available for 76gpt and 133 gold, feel free to take it if you want LK. Small bit of weed at the end as I let Paegam slip into disorder as its resistance ends. I avoided starving it, but probably should have hired another entertainer. Then again, I didn't know the resistance would end this turn and put the city into disorder. In any event, it's no big deal.
Conclusion: I have started a bank in Sabratha, but I think that a palace should be started there very soon (probably after the bank finishes) as a prebuild for ToE, which is rapidly approaching. We should also consider starting Universities in our core, either as prebuilds for factories or to start doing our own research sometime in the Industrial Age, and to get some sort of culture in our uncivilized society. Defensively, we are starting to get in decent shape and once we build factories, we should be able to crank out a whole lot of Cavalry. Good Luck to LK.
PS: Remember that we do not have any military alliances, so we can make peace with Korea at any time. I saw no Korean units come our way after we took Paegam and we have no hint of war weariness. As an aside, how did Persia get so powerful, being isolated for so long? Without trading tech advances, how could they have possibly kept up with the furious pace?
Edit: File changed to here: LK38, 500AD
Sirian
Designer, Mohawk Games
Good job, Speaker! If Korea will talk to us, we could make peace and utilize most of the GA on permanent improvements, knowing we can later get a military production GA any time we really need one by mobilizing. (Certainly if Mongols attack). Not that I think we should ignore military -- a bunch of cavalry now would be a good idea, I think -- but the goal was to take over Korea's cities on our shores. As soon as that is met, we can make an exit from the war as long as we haven't signed any alliances.
About the price going UP for an alliance, I said that would happen. The AI will pay extra to get you to ruin your reputation. It's "an incentive" to induce you to break a deal with another civ. Once that other deal is gone, they consider their bargaining position improved and so they pay less. Believe it or not, in real world terms this actually makes sense. (Civ3 making sense? Go figure!)
As for working to avoid starving Paegam... by all means STARVE THEM! Our flip risk is about fivefold. If we get them down to one foreign national, then a garrison of about five or six cheap units will ensure zero or near-zero flip risk. If we make peace and then the city flips back, what have we gained?
No-starvation is the way to go to role play completely honorably, and can make for an interesting variant rule, adding challenges, but if I recall right, there are no variant rules in play for this one.
Also, all those libraries I built back around 250AD? Those come into play most of all in converting captured citizens to our kind, and in improving flip odds. That lets us try to hold on to cities, instead of leaving minimum garrisons and expecting to have to recapture if they do flip.\
Finally, the only time we want to sign alliances is if we don't think we can avoid war long term, or if we can give our enemy another target. If the Mongols come for us, if we sign up help, that either means 20 turns of holding out or else a bad rep if we make peace. There are no closer targets, Germany was the only other civ on the continent. If Persia declared, then allies might be more useful. If Mongolia comes, we can instead just hold out for five to seven turns, then we can make peace, which ought to last at least ten turns before they break the deal and re-attack. The more time we buy, the stronger our position gets. On the other hand, if they come for us, we hold them off and they make peace, but they break deal and come again, at THAT point we should consider it an Always War situation, be ready to switch to Monarchy and go all out. Let's hope it doesn't come to that.
Banks would especially be a good thing for us to try to build during the GA. Just be VERY careful about not overdoing the spending on deals, and leaving us unable to pay our debts when GA bonus commerce disappears. OK?
- Sirian
About the price going UP for an alliance, I said that would happen. The AI will pay extra to get you to ruin your reputation. It's "an incentive" to induce you to break a deal with another civ. Once that other deal is gone, they consider their bargaining position improved and so they pay less. Believe it or not, in real world terms this actually makes sense. (Civ3 making sense? Go figure!)
As for working to avoid starving Paegam... by all means STARVE THEM! Our flip risk is about fivefold. If we get them down to one foreign national, then a garrison of about five or six cheap units will ensure zero or near-zero flip risk. If we make peace and then the city flips back, what have we gained?
No-starvation is the way to go to role play completely honorably, and can make for an interesting variant rule, adding challenges, but if I recall right, there are no variant rules in play for this one.
Also, all those libraries I built back around 250AD? Those come into play most of all in converting captured citizens to our kind, and in improving flip odds. That lets us try to hold on to cities, instead of leaving minimum garrisons and expecting to have to recapture if they do flip.\
Finally, the only time we want to sign alliances is if we don't think we can avoid war long term, or if we can give our enemy another target. If the Mongols come for us, if we sign up help, that either means 20 turns of holding out or else a bad rep if we make peace. There are no closer targets, Germany was the only other civ on the continent. If Persia declared, then allies might be more useful. If Mongolia comes, we can instead just hold out for five to seven turns, then we can make peace, which ought to last at least ten turns before they break the deal and re-attack. The more time we buy, the stronger our position gets. On the other hand, if they come for us, we hold them off and they make peace, but they break deal and come again, at THAT point we should consider it an Always War situation, be ready to switch to Monarchy and go all out. Let's hope it doesn't come to that.
Banks would especially be a good thing for us to try to build during the GA. Just be VERY careful about not overdoing the spending on deals, and leaving us unable to pay our debts when GA bonus commerce disappears. OK?
- Sirian
Most of the deals I made were on the same turn that the GA started, so they expire when it does. Additionally, a 51gpt deal with India expired a few turns into the GA, and I then made the last deal with them. Oh, and Korea will not talk to us yet. As for the lack of starving, I knew we weren't playing by strictly honorable rules, and I usually do starve my captured cities, but for some reason I still chose not to do it. Can I get a light? 
These are both dead end-techs, and we won't get Smith's. What were you looking for with the techs?
