LK47 - Open SG - 1.21 patch, emperor, 2CC conquest, China

[T-hawk]

Best use of the Leader - rush a factory! I wouldn't worry about Universal Suffrage; the next war or two will be our last.

Shakespeare's - nice thought, but isn't worth researching Printing Press and Democracy and Free Artistry in a 2CC. And it only helps one of the cities; lux tax will have to be raised to help the other one anyway.

 

[Despot]

Thanks Skyfish!!

Nice turns, Lee! We definitely have the infidel on the ropes. Now we can get our Riders upgraded to cav and build up some more and then we can deliver the knockout blow.

Doesn't sound like Greece gained much from this war either which is good. All they got was Fez I believe which was near their territory.

During our 20 turns of peace should we simply build up our forces for the next war or at some point declare on Greece (except if we have deals with them). I'm pretty sure the Arabs are going to try coming through our territory to get at the Greeks so we will have to look out...our peace might not last 20 unless we let them go through.

 

[LKendter]

The next round with Arabia will be the critical one. There iron works city, and heavy wonder cities are all exposed.

I agree with T-hawk on the factory rush. It may be to our advantage to have both AI tie up a city building a wonder.


Greece gained Fez.
Arabia gained Rhodes.

We got an excuse to nail a Greek city captued by Arabia.


OK - A lot of comments here, but we still need a "got it".

 

[JMB]

I would take it, but I think I played only 1 - 2 turns ago. If nobody has taken it by tonight though, I'll grab it again (please let me know if this is ok Lee).

Just to repeat : Not a 'got it,' but if nobody takes it before tonight I'll grab it...

JMB

 

[Despot]

JMB, it is safe for you to take...a few people have gone since the last time you had it. I went right before Lee which is why I am holding off. Also because I don't have much time right now to play anyways.

 

[LKendter]

@JMB
at least 2 players have played since your last turn - take it away.

 

[JMB]

Ok, I've got it and will post sometime tonight.

JMB

 

[JMB]

1250 - move 7 riders to assault Damascus next turn. IBT, our riders kill 2 attacking cavalry...

1255 - vet rider redlines reg rifleman but dies. 2nd one retreats doing no damage. Third and fourth retreat. Fifth dies. Sixth wins. Seventh and eightth die (against a 1 hp rifleman). Grr... I really thought we'd be able to take the city. Elite rider takes out a musket. Time to make peace. Cancel alliance and deals with Alex. Well, trying to take out Damascus (even though it was only defended by 2 reg riflemen and was only size 6) was a bad idea; sorry about that guys. Peace, MT, and nationalism for 32 gpt. Upgrade our musketmen to riflemen and draft 2 riflemen. I replace the citizens with workers. IBT, palace expansion.

1260 - Not much.

1265 - Upgrade several riders to cavalry. We might want to consider upgrading our elite riders to cavalrymen as 1) we aren't going to get any more leaders for awhile and 2) the extra firepower is, I think, more useful than the 1 extra hp (which, through judicial use of our troops should be easy to get back). In any case, as we have something like 10 more turns of peace, I'll leave that for our next leader to decide. Time to get our military railnet fixed... The Arabs have a Cav army!

1270 - Well, we can get industrialization, but it is really going to cost us... Industrialization from the Arabs for Spices, Dyes, Silks, our WM, 55 gpt, and 15 gold.

1275 - Rush factory in Beijing. Not much.

1280 to 1300 - Not much. I built a coal plant in Beijing thinking it would help our production even more, but it really didn't help much (we can't produce cavalry any more quickly), so the next leader might want to consider selling it. We now have 6 cavalry, 5 elite riders, and 2 turns left on our peace treaty with Alex. In truth, I think the Arabs are more of a threat as Abu Bakr is doing pretty well against Alex (ie, we should stay at peace with Alex for the time being. We have 11 more turns of peace with Abu Bakr and 14 turns left on our industrialization deal. So if the next leader wants (and we have enough troops), he could demand that Abu Bakr remove his troops from our territory. This will likely result in the Arabs declaring war on us, and then we'd be free of our gpt payments to him and we can take out his troops in our lands. If we choose to go this route, then we should be able to take out Aleppo, Tabuk, Megara, and Artemisium within the first turn or two.

Here's the save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LK47_1300AD.zip

I hope the next leader has fun and has better luck than me...

JMB

 

[hotrod0823]

I read your comments on our rep getting trashed and the only thing I recall that made Arabia furious was when I razed the last Carthage city (1 turn before he did) and it ended our alliance against Carthage and cost him a lux 7 turns before the end of the deal. I guess technically we broke a 20 turns deal by actually finishing the war. I don't remember any deals broken with Greece.

Hotrod

 

[T-hawk]

Well, we can get industrialization, but it is really going to cost us... Industrialization from the Arabs for Spices, Dyes, Silks

Actually, when you trade multiple luxuries to one civ, you want to do them in separate deals when possible. The price rises with each luxury that the receiving civ already has, so you get better prices on the later ones if you split them up. One would make out better by trading one lux plus gold/turn for Industrialization, then trading the other luxes to get back some gold/turn. I'm not complaining on your play, just illustrating a subtle point.

Oh, and keep that coal plant. With a hospital if we ever get around to that, the city will make a cavalry or artillery every turn easily. And I agree on upgrading the elite riders to cavalry - maybe leave one elite rider to chase down random longbows and such.

Future plans - I don't see us able to do anything more than annoy Arabia before we have a stack of 15 artillery. (Although getting the Industrialization payment canceled could well be worth it for immediate war.)

Not a got it, just posting strategies

 

[JMB]

Thanks for the pointer T-hawk. I think I knew that, but I often forget about such things...

If we don't get the Arabs to declare soon, let's take out a few more Greek cities ASAP.

So who's going to take it?

JMB

 

[T-hawk]

OK, I was wanting to wait another round or two, but since nobody else seems to want it I'll take it now. Got it. (I think I followed JMB last time too, heh.)

 

[T-hawk]

Whether to demand withdrawal right now to try to get war is a tough decision. It probably is our best course of action. But - we still have 11 turns left on a peace treaty for which we got two techs. By the letter of the RBCiv rules, that's a phony peace treaty exploit (even if they declare the war). And I think we can still win without resorting to shady tactics like that.

Besides, I'm not too worried about the economic progress of either civ as long as both are at war with each other. We'll continue building, for my turn at least.

==========

Inherited turn: Since we won't be going to war immediately, I switch Beijing off a rider to a University. Once somebody gets Medicine, we will likely want to research Sanitation ourselves right away. The AIs will probably take a while to get to it; it's a cheap tech (cheapest in the Industrial Age in fact); hospitals will immediately double our military production rate and increase our economy by 50%; and it's also quite possible to trade Sanitation for another tech like Industrialization or at least some cash. But not until someone gets and we somehow acquire Medicine.

Beijing is at 3 turns to university, so I MM it to all the high-commerce tiles.

1305 AD: Shanghai factory -> coal plant.

For the first time I notice that we are in Monarchy - I actually didn't realize we weren't in Republic. Well, revolting now wouldn't make sense, of course.

1310 AD: Beijing university -> colosseum; it will need the extra happiness once a hospital comes or if we lose a luxury colony.

1320 AD: Beijing back on military production, though I'll let it do cavalries every other turn rather than wasting workers and cash to build them every turn.

1325 AD: Shanghai coal plant -> university, same reasoning as Beijing.

1330 AD: Greece has researched a technology before Arabia did - but it's Communism. And Greece is now in anarchy.

1340 AD: Arabia has also acquired Communism, and also revolted. Both enemies are in Communism.

1350 AD: Nothing else happened.

The units on our western border were there to block any settlers from poaching our Spices. Arabia just settled Sana'a there, so they probably don't need to be there anymore, except for the one way out on the tip (next to the fish) where an AI might settle.

Greece lacks Coal; keep checking him to see if he ever has enough gold/turn to offer to make it worth selling him some.

We can go after Arabia in one more turn after the peace treaty expires, or four turns if we wait for all the payments to expire. (Our reputation betrayal was against Greece; as long as we don't betray Arabia and Arabia is at war with Greece we can deal normally with Arabia.) Or we can go after Greece again; we could've even done that on my turn but I didn't.

Or we can keep trying to build towards hospitals (and maybe Stock Exchanges), although it might be a long while until anyone gets Medicine or Corporation. I don't think we'll reach a winning position against Arabia until artillery, but we can chip away at them in the meantime. (Maybe we should be building cannons now instead of more cavalry, but that's up to the next leader.)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/lk47-1350ad.zip

 

[LKendter]

Both enemies are in Communism. [dance]


Who wants China next?
My opinion is to go after Arabia again after the payments are done.
Remember they have border cities that have iron works and wonders. Just nailing one or two of those cities would be worth another round as that would hurt Arabia big time. I still see Arabia as the primary threat.

 

[hotrod0823]

Whether to demand withdrawal right now to try to get war is a tough decision. It probably is our best course of action. But - we still have 11 turns left on a peace treaty for which we got two techs. By the letter of the RBCiv rules, that's a phony peace treaty exploit (even if they declare the war).

I have to disagree on this. You have every right to demand the AI to leave. You are not the aggressor stomping on their lands they are on yours and an honorable civ has every right to demand the AI leave even if a peace deal or gpt deals are in place. You are not demanding a war declaration at all you are simply asking them to leave and are more than willing to continue the gpt payments. If they chose not to comply and declare war it is on them not on you. By saying heh we will let you walk all over us and it is okay because 10 turns ago you gave me tech. You leave yourself open for a sneak attack.

Does this mean that you can't attempt a tech steal once because there is a possiblity they may declare if they catch you? I understand not trying over and over just to get a war declaration but to say heh I won't try because we are at peace is not the point of the exploit in my option. You are not the declarer or the aggressor the AI is so it not IMO an exploit at all. If they are willing to flush away gpt deals too bad.

Hotrod

 

[LKendter]

False Peace Treaties (must wait for the 20 years to end).
Declaring War to break trade deals including actions like the Demand exploit to force a war, or demanding to leave territory.


I fully suspect T-Hawks move as it is in sync with my exploit rules listed above. Note that I do allow tech steal as this has a legitimate purpose. The major of leave territories are to force a war.

 

[hotrod0823]

If you accept cities or technologies as part of AI concessions for peace, you are required to honorably observe the full twenty turn duration of the peace treaty.

Yes, all peace with hard goods should be honored but....

If you demand that AI forces withdraw, they may say OK and then ignore you; however, if you demand on two consecutive turns that AI forces withdraw or declare war, on the second turn they are forced to choose. If they then declare war on you, they are the aggressor.

This is the statement that I have a problem with....

Any declaration of war under which you fight only inside your own borders is honorable, provided that you violate no diplomatic bargains in the process. This would include the right to head off anything you deem to be a sneak attack in the making, or to attack offending units of any civ who refuses to vacate your territory when asked,

I think this is a direct contradiction with the first statement allowing you to ask an AI to leave at any time. I see what T-Hawk is claiming is an exploit but I still have to disagree.

Hotrod

 

[hotrod0823]

I cross posted with Lee.

I think you have to be able to stop a sneak attack. If the Arabs move a SoD of 20+ cavs to attack Beijing within the 11 turns you must beable to prevent that attack. They have no Right of Passage and shouldn't be allowed to attack you reguardless of any deals you have in place.

Hotrod

 

[T-hawk]

First, it isn't about the gpt payments; it's about our payment of promised peace. As Sirian explains it and I agree, Phony Peace Treaty is defined as an exploit to cover a specific hole in the game AI. The AI paid us for peace, ahead of time, in technology. But it does not carry a memory of that, and so does not realize that it is flushing away our payment of the peace promise by declaring war again.

Put in different terms, the AI can and does take pending gpt deals into account when breaking deals to declare war. But it fails to assign a value to turns-remaining-on-a-peace-treaty. That's the specific hole which the AI can't handle properly which the exploit covers, and into which we would've stepped with definite intent.

Regarding espionage, in the RB Epics, we players accept that we know what the intent is (serious espionage or get-war-declared), even if we don't have rules to codify it. Demanding withdrawal virtually never has any purpose other than getting war declared. Leniency would be made for averting an obvious sneak attack; we know whether the intent is self-defense or bilking the AI.

You can play however you like on your turn, though; I just wasn't going to do it on mine.

Anyways, enough hijacking. Who wants China next?

BTW, for Lee - Both enemies are in Communism. [dance] - do note that Greece will have almost zero corruption, having only seven or eight cities, and in fact they're better off in Communism than in Monarchy. But it's still better than being in Republic. And Arabia being communist most definitely hurts them.

 

[hotrod0823]

The horse is officially dead . I see and will comply, I don't ever recall employing this tactic and realize the consequences. Asking that lone longbow to leave is a bit different than asking the SoD of 20+ cavs to take a hike .

Hotrod