Loki needs a boost

[feydras]

Now that Loki has become mortal, ie fairly easy to kill, he needs a boost.

I've played the last two games as the Balseraph and had Loki killed pretty quickly. I can appreciate this as for game balance there should be some way to kill him but i think it is too easy.

Suggestions:
1. Make him killable only by someone with the Marksman promo.
or
2. Give him either the Hero promo or 1 XP everytime he flees a combat successfully. Then allow him to get promotions. He still wouldn't be able to attack he would just be a little more resilant.

If none of the above at least let him sit in a city using the Sentry function instead of sleeping or fortifying. This would at least give you a chance to move him out if approached by an enemy without having to check him every turn.

- feydras

 

[loki1232]

yeah i wish that loki could get the hero promotion as well as a few unique spells and go around wrecking early game havok.

 

[thomas.berubeg]

so says Loki

 

[feydras]

I think he is good enough early game and serves a very neat unique function. I'd just like to see him not get knocked out by the first captured wolf.

- feydras

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Eh, go ahead and make him immortal and give him a unitcombat (recon?) so he can learn a couple of spells.

 

[thewyrm]

What would a hero promotion or XP give you though?

How is your Loki dieing? Easy to kill? Just last night he lured Orthus to my capital by being attacked 27 turns in a row. How are you getting him killed when he isn't in a city? You can't get rid of his crutch (dieing while in a city) because A- his ability is too powerful for him not to have drawbacks, and B- flavor/RP wise it takes a lot of time, focus, and effort to swing the populace of an entire city to the mad king. He can't keep watching his back.

Re- .31 changes: Giving him Mutation is awesome!!!!!! What a wicked cool ability to get at practically the begining of the game. Do I wish he had totally unique spells? Of course, I wish everything about the Balseraphs were totally unique. Loki though is already crazy powerful. Keep experimenting with him. You will find that he serves a purpose in almost every facet of the game.

I guess if I had to make a complaint about him, it would be that while he is BY FAR the most powerful early game hero his true usefullnes dies off by about turn 150. I would fix this by allowing him to swap out his three spells for three new ones from the mana you have access to every time he is in your capital.

 

[jimi12]

when i recently played balseraphs i had the luchuirp bordering my west. loki was able to put three of their cities into riots and all three flipped to my civ. it alost felt like cheating since loki single handedly captured three of their cities withouth me having to declare war. I think he definetly is fine as he is.

 

[Pyr0mancer]

Loki is definitely for early-game rushes, rather than later on. I tend to get 4-5 free cities from Loki by basically parking in their capital until they build a settler, then as soon as the city is founded parking Loki there. Normally within 5 turns the city is mine. Also, getting cities with Loki frees up your own cities to build warriors instead of settlers, thereby defending those cities and storming the capital (which Loki can't steal due to the palace culture bonus) and maybe 1 or 2 cities that got built before I got Loki out.

The key to using Loki is to park him in the city BEFORE AN OBELISK IS BUILT. Loki only is a -1 culture, so any culture-generating building will mean that he can no longer flip the city. Once there's culture being generated, Loki will only be able to create a temporary 1.

 

[xienwolf]

And know which leaders have Creative Trait

 

[Niveras]

And before they spread any religions except RoK.

As an aside, do Loki and the gypsy wagons still take gold from enemies? I know the building is -2 gold (and other things) but does it still give this to you like the civopedia says?

 

[xienwolf]

No, I don't see anything in the code that gives the Balseraphs any gold so far. It puts 1 Balseraph Culture in the City, removes 1 Native Culture, and raises the city maintenance by 2 gold

 

[loocas]

Loki can be killed by HN units in another player's city (the Nilhorn giants, for instance). Maybe that's a bug.

 

[feydras]

Loki can be killed by HN units in another player's city (the Nilhorn giants, for instance). Maybe that's a bug.

I don't think it is a bug but that's my point. The first captured animal will kill Loki if he is doing what he is meant to do, work a city down. Given the attacker will likely be using roads when they hit him there is no way to see a Move 2 unit like a wolf coming without a whole lot of scouts and constant attention.

At a minimum i'd like to see Loki get the Sentry option so he can awaken when a HN ends it's turn next to him. This would eliminate the micromanagement of checking him every turn.

 

[Dinkeldog]

He's been way too situational for me. When I get put adjacent to a creative civ, he's next to useless. It would be nice if he could gain promotions for later in the game.

 

[Zechnophobe]

He's been way too situational for me. When I get put adjacent to a creative civ, he's next to useless. It would be nice if he could gain promotions for later in the game.

So his roll as 'best scout ever' isn't good enough? .

I do agree that later on in the game he's kinda weak though. Not sure if that is 'ok' or not, I mean, any unit you can single handedly take cities with like him is pretty darn good overall.

 

[Roghar]

He is never completely useless. Mutation and Dancing Blades remain useful, especially as a caster who can wander in with your invading army at no risk of death.

His culture disruption ability also remains useful even when all opposing cities are producing culture. I often place him in a city which is contesting culturally with mine, and he helps tip the balance over time. In one recent game I managed to use him to grab 3 cities built as satellites to a major Bannor city, all close enough to share fat crosses with that bigger city. By plonking him in that city and focusing on culture in the others I was able to assert control over a lot more land than I would have without him, all the while scouting out the city for me

 

[Zechnophobe]

He is never completely useless. Mutation and Dancing Blades remain useful, especially as a caster who can wander in with your invading army at no risk of death.

His culture disruption ability also remains useful even when all opposing cities are producing culture. I often place him in a city which is contesting culturally with mine, and he helps tip the balance over time. In one recent game I managed to use him to grab 3 cities built as satellites to a major Bannor city, all close enough to share fat crosses with that bigger city. By plonking him in that city and focusing on culture in the others I was able to assert control over a lot more land than I would have without him, all the while scouting out the city for me

Yeah, but his effect is the same as any other gypsy wagon for those purposes. I'm not really sure if Mutation is particularly great, though an invincible charmer is nice... but it's a level 1 spell, not that hard to have a few adepts doing roughly the same thing.

I guess the issue is that most hero's kinda lead the tide of an army into battle, especially when they are, y'know, level 15 or greater. Loki just doesn't scale the same way. Maybe if the penalty he gave to culture was equal to your entropy mana? (I think the belseraphs start with that).

 

[Demus]

i'd see loki more as a chaos-affinity unit than an entropy-affinity (strenght or skillwise) to be honest . Still, it would be nice if he'd be able to upgrade to more powerful spells later on (available from sorcery - strenght of will?)

 

[xienwolf]

I am reasonably certain that you can cast Mutation on Neutral Units in the same stack as you, so you can go around Mutating your opponents with him from the beginning of the game as well, just to liven up the game a bit more.

 

[kenken244]

I'd like it if loki got some gold-requiring spells that can put Balseraph culture in a city or put it into a revolt. this way he is still balanced in the early game because of the gold cost, but becomes better in the late game when you can generate more gold.