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Come on, isn't it possible to at least rush all opponents on one's own continent with Warriors on Noble? Having one whole continent for onesself on Huge Marathon, that are 50+ cities while the civs on the other continent have 10 each. It can't be that it's not possible to beat Noble with random tech choices, with 50 cities, one researches so fast, that one can probably be at Astronomy with every other tech also researched before the AIs are even at Civil Service.
 
I never said I was one, yet what I said was still absolutely true. They had a choice, invest massive hours into making a better AI or save massive hours (and expense) by simply giving the AI advantages, and they chose the latter. And it may be true that in the real world market place, that was the only choice, but it doesn't change the fact that this is the choice they made.

As to whether it's feasible to build a smarter AI or not, I'll just say that everything you just said about the AI for CIV was said about chess AI back in the 1960's when the first computer chess games were programmed. ("There's just too many possibilities, computer power is limited, etc. etc. etc.)

Given a choice, I'd pay $100 and wait an extra two to three years for the right Civ game that has better AI instead of just cheats. But that's me, and I realize it's likely not the public at large, and as a company in it for profit, they've got to make the best market based decision. That doesn't mean I don't get to criticize it.

Sure, the AI cheats in a lot of ways – free visibility within movement range, free units and techs at higher levels, lower production and food boxes to fill, research and maintenance bonuses, diplomatic engine advantages, etc.

The AI, however, doesn’t get to use mapfinder or worldbuilder to get a great start. It doesn’t get to pick its own leaders or pick optimal leader/civ combos when unrestricted leaders are checked. It doesn’t get to arbitrarily decide before the game starts whether it wants everyone to be able to trade techs, form alliances, open huts, etc. It doesn’t get to opportunistically declare war on civs it is “Pleased” or “Friendly” with except under limited circumstances. It doesn’t get to cancel trade deals and renegotiate them when it sees you have more money. It doesn't get to quit games where it starts in isolation. And so on.
 
Sure, the AI cheats in a lot of ways – free visibility within movement range, free units and techs at higher levels, lower production and food boxes to fill, research and maintenance bonuses, diplomatic engine advantages, etc.

The AI, however, doesn’t get to use mapfinder or worldbuilder to get a great start. It doesn’t get to pick its own leaders or pick optimal leader/civ combos when unrestricted leaders are checked. It doesn’t get to arbitrarily decide before the game starts whether it wants everyone to be able to trade techs, form alliances, open huts, etc. It doesn’t get to opportunistically declare war on civs it is “Pleased” or “Friendly” with except under limited circumstances. It doesn’t get to cancel trade deals and renegotiate them when it sees you have more money. It doesn't get to quit games where it starts in isolation. And so on.

LOL, since most of those are cheats, I find it rather refreshing that the AI can't do them, especially since I don't do them myself. Now if only the AI didn't cheat in the other ways that I don't too... The only quibble I have is with the statement that only under "limited" circumstances does the AI declare war on Civs it's Pleased or Friendly with, because that is most certainly NOT BEEN my experience. I've had Civs declare war on me hundreds of times despite being Friendly even, only to notice their attitude moves to cautious after declaring war. LOL.
 
Well, there is only one AI in the game that can declare at friendly iirc, and that is Cathy. She can't declare directly, but she can be bribed into war against you even if she is friendly towards you. Nobody else can do this. A fair few can declare at Pleased, however.
 
Instead of declare, you mean plot, All AIs can declare at friendly, if they i. e. plotted while they were still cautious or pleased.
 
True; an important distinction. If they started plotted at cautious, it doesn't matter if they were at friendly when the warhorn blows.
 
Come on, isn't it possible to at least rush all opponents on one's own continent with Warriors on Noble? Having one whole continent for onesself on Huge Marathon, that are 50+ cities while the civs on the other continent have 10 each. It can't be that it's not possible to beat Noble with random tech choices, with 50 cities, one researches so fast, that one can probably be at Astronomy with every other tech also researched before the AIs are even at Civil Service.

If you never roll BW (In his random card thingy), I would think that no it probably isn't. I'm picturing a succession of rolling highest cost techs early on, wasting hundreds of turns not being able to chop or whip, bring chased around by Barbarians, getting stomped.
 
If you never roll BW (In his random card thingy), I would think that no it probably isn't. I'm picturing a succession of rolling highest cost techs early on, wasting hundreds of turns not being able to chop or whip, bring chased around by Barbarians, getting stomped.

I wrote Warriors, not Axes. Warrior-rush is even on Prince possible, don't tell me it's impossible on Noble.

Heck, Warrior rush is even possible on Deity on Marathon.
 
LOL, since most of those are cheats, I find it rather refreshing that the AI can't do them, especially since I don't do them myself. Now if only the AI didn't cheat in the other ways that I don't too... The only quibble I have is with the statement that only under "limited" circumstances does the AI declare war on Civs it's Pleased or Friendly with, because that is most certainly NOT BEEN my experience. I've had Civs declare war on me hundreds of times despite being Friendly even, only to notice their attitude moves to cautious after declaring war. LOL.

What one person considers “cheating”, another person may consider smart gameplay, or utilizing game features.

You’ve chosen a suboptimal playing style, because you find that fun. And that’s OK – I play in a less than optimal way, too, for the same reason. But it’s an unfair criticism to complain that the AI does things (or if you prefer, "cheats") that make it too hard to beat on Noble, when you’re deliberately avoiding doing things that would lead to easy wins on Noble.
 
What one person considers “cheating”, another person may consider smart gameplay, or utilizing game features.

You’ve chosen a suboptimal playing style, because you find that fun. And that’s OK – I play in a less than optimal way, too, for the same reason. But it’s an unfair criticism to complain that the AI does things (or if you prefer, "cheats") that make it too hard to beat on Noble, when you’re deliberately avoiding doing things that would lead to easy wins on Noble.

First of all, I don't believe I ever leveled any criticism about the game cheating on Noble. As far as I can recall, on Noble the game does not cheat. On Noble is when it's basically pretty even IIRC (maybe I'm wrong on that though my memory sucks). I leveled a general criticism that on the higher difficulties, they chose to let the AI cheat rather than make the AI smarter or better, and I stand by that criticism, as it's my number one complaint about every Civ game I've ever played. And it's incredibly frustrating to lose on the higher difficulties not because I got outplayed, but because the AI can build stuff and research stuff at 2, 3 or even 4 times the rate I can given the EXACT SAME resources/cities. Again, it would be like playing chess on higher difficulties and losing not because the AI got smarter, but because it had 3 queens and 6 rooks in place of the pawns. That's not FUN, and it's not chess.

This thread wasn't about it cheating on Noble, it was about the jump of one level (from Warrior to Noble) and finding the game going from boringly easy to wondering if it's impossible (only on my seventh game now so not ready to say close to impossible yet). And whether there were "other things" going on besides the usual "cheating" in level jumps, such as resources allocation and or placement.

I played about 15 games on Warlord using this method (I bumped it down to Warlord because I knew playing this way was not conducive to playing it on the higher levels) and while the first game or two I seemed to "struggle" I still won them and the last 8 to 10 were all complete wipe outs that weren't really that challenging even when I had horrible luck with the draws. For example, I actually DID have two games where the cards came up with something very big very early that took over a hundred turns while still not being able to chop down WOOD!!! That's okay, that's why I chose this, to give me new challenges and ways to think of stuff. But despite being behind early, I still won that game handily too.

Then I go up ONE level and BAM, I'm not even smelling a chance at victory. The best I've done so far is to make a run a Space victory only to lose before I had even completed the Apollo program!!!! (The AI's were so far ahead of me I knew there was no warmongering to be done to beat them). It just seems strange to me that one jump would make THAT much difference. And TBH, I'm still not sure that's it. It's entirely possible I've just been incredibly unlucky in the past six games (vis-à-vis the drawing of the techs), but I just really am wondering.

If I get beat badly in 6 more, I think my next attempt will be to utilize those "cheat" or tweaks to sort of see if I can come up with something that's kind of between Warlord and Noble. Of course I could also get extremely lucky with the cards, have them basically follow a decent strategic route, and then beating it on Noble won't be a problem since I've done that already many times picking my own techs. It may just be that there is no "sweet spot" to play it like this. Which is a shame, because I'm finding myself having loads of fun again, whereas before it seemed like you picked the same basic tech strategy game in and game out and the same units/buildings/options became available in the same order at the same time..... etc. etc. I like the way this changes it up.
 
If you want to improve your game so you can win on noble even with random tech order, post a game for us to help with decisions and spot things you may have missed (just bear in mind it may be difficult for the usual helpers to adjust their advice to not being able to choose techs). You don't have to follow any advice that you think is exploiting the dumb AI, just don't get into arguments about why following that advice would make the game not fun for you.
 
(...) It just seems strange to me that one jump would make THAT much difference. And TBH, I'm still not sure that's it. It's entirely possible I've just been incredibly unlucky in the past six games (vis-à-vis the drawing of the techs), but I just really am wondering.
It does sound strange. On Warlord, the AI mostly pays 10% more for everything.

I've given your random-tech rule a try. Some fun moments, e.g. when my military consisted of only Catapults and Warriors. As for getting Horseback Riding early (w/o Wheel and Archery) or Aesthetics, that's largely the same as slowing down the player's research rate; which is OK, but I don't like when this happens based on luck. Therefore, I allowed myself a single veto each time a tech was chosen. This probably makes Noble too easy though ...
 
And it's incredibly frustrating to lose on the higher difficulties not because I got outplayed, but because the AI can build stuff and research stuff at 2, 3 or even 4 times the rate I can given the EXACT SAME resources/cities. Again, it would be like playing chess on higher difficulties and losing not because the AI got smarter, but because it had 3 queens and 6 rooks in place of the pawns. That's not FUN, and it's not chess.
I think it's a mindset issue. When playing civ, or any other strategy game vs AI opponents, I'm not competing with the AI. I'm competing with myself. If the AI opponent has massive bonuses, so be it. The question is, can I outdo myself and win despite starting with a disadvantage. If I lose, I'm not thinking I lost because the AI had so much bonuses. I lost because I didn't play well enough and next time I aim to play better. To blame AI bonuses for a defeat seems odd to me, especially as long as there are a ton of other players out there who can beat the AI despite those bonuses.
 
Disclaimer - this is in no way intended to be rude, disrespectful, nor a trolling comment. The OP of this thread is upset that he has difficulty on noble. Complains that on higher difficulty levels the Ai "cheats". However, the OP fails to realize that the human player "cheats" on settler - warlord. On the three easiest difficulty levels the human player receives all the same advantages that go to the Ai on levels above noble. You the player have reduced maintenance, easier teching, while the Ai has a tougher time of it. All the advantages go to the player against the Ai. So what happens? The OP moves to noble and is upset that he cannot easily win against the Ai. On noble the human and Ai are on even terms, then the OP handicaps himself with his personal playing style getting mad that he can't defeat the Ai like he can on warlord. To me this doesn't make sense. I can respect the OP for his choice in his play style, but to be so upset with the difficulty he has, is in my opinion misplaced. I would suggest to the OP, that he play a few games on noble like all other players would, to examine for himself what his play style costs him. Choose your own techs, play the "traditional" way the game was meant to be played and see where you stand. Get used to the difference on noble from what you are accustomed to on settler -warlord. Then after gaining experience and several victories under your belt, try it "your" way. Perhaps you might see things differently. As for what Seraiel said in a recent post, I myself have recently beaten the game on prince doing a warrior rush. Noble is really the true base level. Anyone with years playing Civ shouldn't have much difficulty winning on noble. Again, my apologies if this post sounded disrespectful.
 
I wrote Warriors, not Axes. Warrior-rush is even on Prince possible, don't tell me it's impossible on Noble.

Heck, Warrior rush is even possible on Deity on Marathon.

I didn't say axes. How do you spam warriors without whipping or chopping? Don't get me wrong I know one can generate 5 or 6 warriors without disrupting things too much, but that's hardly a force when dealing with barbarians and 17 other civs. I'm sure anything is possible, some of you guys have played this game 24/7 for years so anything is easy. But for normal folks, it seems rather difficult.
 
I didn't say axes. How do you spam warriors without whipping or chopping? Don't get me wrong I know one can generate 5 or 6 warriors without disrupting things too much, but that's hardly a force when dealing with barbarians and 17 other civs. I'm sure anything is possible, some of you guys have played this game 24/7 for years so anything is easy. But for normal folks, it seems rather difficult.

He has only 5-6 opponents, not 17.

Building Warriors is done best with working a PHF while settling on a 2-3 :hammers: tile.

Afaik, one can even walk-in in capitals on Noble, because they sometimes have 0 defenders. The human can without problems produce 2-3 Warriors for 3 civs fast enough, to kill them all, especially as this is Marathon.

I'm currently too busy with the Major Deity gauntlet, otherwise I would show this. Maybe someone else fells himself inspired to do so though. Should the 3rd civ have an Archer already, 4 Warriors also kill an Archer in 80% of the cases. Attack with 6 and you're definitely on the safe side.
 

*sigh*

I don't know if I'm not speaking English or am being too unclear, but I have said now on MULTIPLE OCCASSIONS that my comment about the AI cheating was NOT regarding my current play style. That was, and is, a general criticism of ALL of the Civ games, as instead of making the AI smarter, they chose to instead give the AI advantages. And while some are ok with that, I don't like it. It's like two players playing the game with different rules, and that's not fun.

That has NOTHING to do with my "complaint" about the jump from Warlord to Noble, which I think I've also said MULTIPLE TIMES I don't think the AI cheats on. My OP was, and is, about how I find it so hard to fathom how in one difficulty jump it went from way too easy to seemingly way too hard playing with this play style. Not a word about the AI "cheating", simply a comment about the one level jump being so drastic USING THIS PLAY STYLE. And then I questioned whether other things were going on in addition to the usual advantages/disadvantages of level jumps, such as resource allocation or placement.

Yes, I've beaten the game on Noble, I've beaten the game on two levels above Noble, but haven't much tried above that because as I've said multiple times that's when it gets frustrating to me to be playing with two sets of rules instead of playing against a better opponent.

So, I chose to "turn the concept around" and instead of making it more difficult by giving the AI advantages, I chose to try making it more difficult by giving myself more disadvantages, in this case losing the ability to determine order of techs.

I then dropped back down to Warlord because I already KNOW this is not the play style meant for the higher difficulties, and played about 13 to 16 games this way. I was winning each time far too easily. So I bumped it back up one level to Noble, and now after 6 games have found it too hard (although I'm still not sure it's "too hard" as I may have just been really unlucky in the combination of tech draws and resource placement).

I am NOT complaining the AI cheats on Noble, it doesn't (IIRC), and yes I know on Warlord I get advantages. I dropped it back to there because it was a new plays style and I wasn't sure how it would go.

After LITERALLY hundreds of games (and LITERALLY thousands of hours) it became somewhat clear to me that no matter how differently one set up a "standard" game, it was really the same game over and over again, with the tech order selection being so strategically important that it made the order almost repetitive (not exactly since different Civs and leaders would change things up a LITTLE) and so I wanted to try playing it in an entirely different way.

Again, this thread (the OP) was about the large jump I'm seeing from Warlord to Noble PLAYING WITH THIS PLAYSTYLE. The criticism about how the developers chose to increase difficulty was a general one that had NOTHING to do with the large jump from Warlord to Noble.

I apologize if I'm still being unclear, but I just don't know how to make it more clear than that. OP Issue - Big jump in difficulty in only one level jump playing it this way. Side Issue - I don't like the way the developers chose to increase difficulty in the game. I mentioned the side issue ONLY to explain my decision for playing this play style. I get frustrated playing on the higher difficulties because of the cheating. Again, I would be just as frustrated playing chess against an AI that had 4 queens and 6 rooks, and it wouldn't matter that were hundreds of chess players out there that could beat that particular AI even when they had 4 queens and 6 rooks. To me that's not chess, and neither is to me any longer still CIV when the AI plays using different rules than me. Others disagree, that's fine.


I don't like it, and that's been my number one complaint about the entire CIV series, and I wish they would take an entire "release" and instead of focusing on new features, just build a better AI and then let both the AI and player play by the same rules and have the jumps in difficulty be because the AI gets smarter, just like in chess games right now. (And before anyone starts jumping in and talking about how unrealistic that is to wish for because X, Y, and Z, first of all, the EXACT SAME THINGS were said about chess when the first chess programs came out AND second of all yes, I understand it may be too much to expect that completely, but IMO they can certainly do a better job of just making the AI smarter and therefore toning down the advantages necessary for the higher levels. IMO they don't really "try very hard" (which is not to say they don't try at all), they have "settled on" the concept of making the game more difficult by giving the AI advantages rather than making it smarter as the easier option. And that makes them like almost 99% of other gaming developers, but it doesn't mean I have to like it.

Oh, and I'll make this my last post here. As I can see this is just like every other gaming site I've ever been to. Make any sort of complaint at all, and the defenders come out of the woodworks to criticize the complainer rather than take a look at the complaint/issues themselves. My bad, I should've known better before even bringing up the general criticism.
 
Instead of writing one WoT after another, have you actually read my post and the suggestions on how to beat Noble with your playstyle easily? It's already the 2nd or 3rd time I come with the same proposal. If you feel misunderstood, think how I feel when you ignore what I write in good will all the time.
 
@Oldfatguy... Let me try and clarify the statement made in my post. You have made it abundantly clear that you feel a large increase in difficulty from warlord to noble. In your own words, you state that it appears that the Ai is playing by a different set of rules. Two sets of rules - one for the human player, one for the Ai's. You fail to realize and acknowledge that on difficulties below noble "YOU" the player are playing by a different set of rules than the Ai. You receive advantages that the Ai doesn't get, so yes you find it easy. Then you make the jump to noble where you and the Ai are on even terms. Yes it is and it should be considerably more difficult on noble. The developers try to make it easy below noble, then crank up the difficulty on noble. To add to the problem, as you yourself have stated, you created your own unique play style because you felt the game was to easy. This only makes the jump in difficulty worse due to how you play. No one here will criticize you for the way you choose to play them game. All we are trying to do is help you realize your complaints are no entirely justified. As for your statements about the developers not making the Ai "smarter" on higher difficulty levels is something that has been an issue for decades. Throughout the 90's and into the 2000's players complain that computer Ai cheats and not play better. This is a fact of life. Computers cannot think. Ai is programmed to operate on specific algorithms, leaving the Ai exposed to the intellect of a thinking human player. Perhaps one day we may be blessed with an Ai that can think and compete with humans. But for now game developers most use computer algorithms to decide the way Ai works. I sincerely doubt that any computer programmer can accomplish what you are asking for. A truly smarter Ai.
 
He has only 5-6 opponents, not 17.

Building Warriors is done best with working a PHF while settling on a 2-3 :hammers: tile.

Afaik, one can even walk-in in capitals on Noble, because they sometimes have 0 defenders. The human can without problems produce 2-3 Warriors for 3 civs fast enough, to kill them all, especially as this is Marathon.

I'm currently too busy with the Major Deity gauntlet, otherwise I would show this. Maybe someone else fells himself inspired to do so though. Should the 3rd civ have an Archer already, 4 Warriors also kill an Archer in 80% of the cases. Attack with 6 and you're definitely on the safe side.

An absolute rush against all Ai rivals is not something I do often. Normally I will rush 1-2 rivals early to expand my empire at the expense of the enemy. Seraiel has stated that on prince the game can be one with warriors alone. This I have done recently. I founded my capitol on a PH, spammed warriors, nothing else. I built no workers, no buildings, not even a barracks. I did not research BW. No chopping, no whipping. Just continuously producing warriors. I captured my closest rivals capitol, and used it too to spam warriors. Two cities building units is more than enough to conquer the map, even on prince.
 
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