Longbow vs Chu

[Elz Majesto]

Hey folks,
New to the forum here but a somewhat seasoned civ 5 player.

Anyway, I played 5-6 games with China, and 2 games with England. I have come to the conclusion that the Longbow is far better then the Chu-ku-nu (sorry if I butchered that).
I play on King, standard, Continent and Continent plus, Raging Barbs.

Chu are awesome, but I prefer that extra range when laying waste to cities. Too many times I have lost 3-5 Chu's thru out the course of a war campaign, but LB rarely ever go down!
Chu really shine on the defensive end, but on offense I bring a catapult or two.

What's your take?

 

[Light Cleric]

Chu-Ko-Nu will be able to get Range much faster than Longbows will be able to get Logistics. Attack twice gives them more experience to get promotions faster. They're so powerful that they're one of the few civs with which I forego Trebuchets and sometimes Cannons entirely. The Longbows may have more survivability because of their early range, but they can be extremely frustrating when the terrain starts obstructing their 3 range in weird ways. Not to mention CKNs will deal more damage over two attacks than a Longbow does in one(factoring in China's stronger GG, which honestly has to be a factor if you're comparing civ vs civ).

Longbows are great units in themselves, don't get me wrong, but I favor Chu-Ko-Nu much more.

 

[Unresolved]

Assuming you get your UU's to level 4 relatively early in their shelf life, Longbowmen are far better than CKN's. The CKN have an attack penalty whereas Longbows don't. If you start your UU from level 1 though, CKN's would win because longbowmen would probably never get to level 4.

 

[The Pilgrim]

Yeah, due to stupid 3 range bug there is no much competition. Not to mention China is few tiers above England on non water maps. On large landmasses England has no bonuses at all other than glitchy LB's and extra spy, an awkward and failed attempt to buff it after it's been labeled as one of the weakest vanilla civs.

 

[budweiser]

I had a level 6 & a 8 Longbow not too long ago. I was 1 shotting Legions. I think Longbows are easier to advance with than Choks. But I didnt have any trouble killing everyone in my last China game either. I prefer England as a civ.

 

[Sequiture]

Well, when using certain units, what kind of siege unit should we use?

Archers=?
Composite Bowmen=?
Crossbowmen=?
Long bowmen=?

I usually think, "my ranged XB has more stregth than a siege unit I could get now, so I'll just bring ranged and melee units, no need for siege unit" but I think that's not how it's supposed to work.

 

[Unresolved]

I generally avoid seige units until artillery. Maybe cannons, but I don't really fight in that era.

 

[ense7en]

Yeah siege is largely unneeded until Artillery.

I usually start pumping out some cannons if i am warring in that in-between Crossbows and Artillery timeframe where Crossbows just aren't enough to take out cities.

As for Longbowmen vs. Chu-ko-nu, they are both great.
I think Longbows are easier to keep alive obviously, but overall, even with losses Chus will get more done.

Definitely China is the superior civ for primarily land maps, but England is really no slouch either and obviously is insane for water maps.

 

[JanghanHong]

Chus are better than Longbows, but Ship of the Line is better than paper makers, I guess it evens out.

 

[The Pilgrim]

I usually think, "my ranged XB has more stregth than a siege unit I could get now, so I'll just bring ranged and melee units, no need for siege unit" but I think that's not how it's supposed to work.

Ranged units have higher ranged combat vs. units, siege units have higher ranged combat vs. cities (more than x2 actually). But even despite the fact ranged units deal less damage to cities, lack of defensive terrain bonuses and slowness make siege pretty irrelevant. So no, that's not how it's supposed to work, but that's how it works atm.

Chus are better than Longbows, but Ship of the Line is better than paper makers, I guess it evens out.

The problem is you use both CKN and papermakers in every game, when it's usually only one of the two for SotL and LB.

 

[budweiser]

Here's a screenshot that shows Longbows having cleared the continent. Now my ships can take over. If I was China, the next phase would be harder.

 

[cmorganuk]

If you can get your composite bows to the cusp of promotion 4 then it doesn’t make any difference. From my experience, if you start your CB push at turn 55-60 then this is about where you are going to be anyway by the time you hit xbows. But having to work up with fresh units, I’d say the chuks have the edge because of their additional fire, they can take a bit of pain too so it’s not like you are rotating them out every turn.

Actually what I like about both of these is its quite easy to get to logistics + range gattling guns, these guys are beasts.

 

[The Pilgrim]

Here's a screenshot that shows Longbows having cleared the continent. Now my ships can take over. If I was China, the next phase would be harder.

Well, considering that you need neither CKN's nor LB's to clear the continent unless it's deity, I'm not sure what your screenshot proves. China will do the job faster due to better GG and by the time you research Navigation, CKN's will be in the middle of clearing the second continent. Not to mention that regular frigates are still incredibly powerful and with that pile of gold and iron of yours, the next phase wouldn't be hard at all. China is domination beast. In fact, it's so beasty, I've heard people banning it in MP.

 

[budweiser]

Well, considering that you need neither CKN's nor LB's to clear the continent unless it's deity, I'm not sure what your screenshot proves. China will do the job faster due to better GG and by the time you research Navigation, CKN's will be in the middle of clearing the second continent. Not to mention that regular frigates are still incredibly powerful and with that pile of gold and iron of yours, the next phase wouldn't be hard at all. China is domination beast. In fact, it's so beasty, I've heard people banning it in MP.

Its nice to have a picture of what we are talking about. Not everyone plays on diety. Some people dont know how to do this.

After all this talk, I think they are about the same. And domination play like this on emperor is very easy. I will play a China game after work and compare.

 

[Elz Majesto]

If you can get your composite bows to the cusp of promotion 4 then it doesn’t make any difference. From my experience, if you start your CB push at turn 55-60 then this is about where you are going to be anyway by the time you hit xbows. But having to work up with fresh units, I’d say the chuks have the edge because of their additional fire, they can take a bit of pain too so it’s not like you are rotating them out every turn.

This is what prompted me to use China and England in the 1st place. I became a fiend to getting level 4 promotion archery units, so that when Gats n MGs came along I will be in a good place. Then I came across an AI that was Great War bombing those units into oblivion that I realized my single minded obsession wasn't so great!

Also when I grind it out from CoBow into XBow I find that the ratio for me is 1 level 4 Promoted unit for every 5 range unit I produced. If I take honor (double or half xp?) then it raises to 1 in 4. Using Chus or LBs, I don't have to worry about that and find that I have most of my original units still chilling in the Modern Age.

 

[Unresolved]

This is what prompted me to use China and England in the 1st place. I became a fiend to getting level 4 promotion archery units, so that when Gats n MGs came along I will be in a good place. Then I came across an AI that was Great War bombing those units into oblivion that I realized my single minded obsession wasn't so great!

Also when I grind it out from CoBow into XBow I find that the ratio for me is 1 level 4 Promoted unit for every 5 range unit I produced. If I take honor (double or half xp?) then it raises to 1 in 4. Using Chus or LBs, I don't have to worry about that and find that I have most of my original units still chilling in the Modern Age.

I think a big point of CKN's and Longbows is that you want to win(or nearly so) in the Medieval/Renaissance Era. I personally find Gatlings and Machine Guns to be crap and I switch over to Artillery/planes at that point.

 

[BBMorti]

The reason people tend to wait with siege until artillery is the very special thing the longbows have. The range.

 

[Matthew.]

I'll take the chu.

+1 range on naval is excellent with the inability to heal in foreign territory. For the crossbow line, it isn't much of an issue to run in and shoot everything down. If one of your guys gets injured, just pull him back and heal up quick.

Artillery guns with their bonus damage to cities and indirect fire are a poor comparison to longbows. More often you will be stuck using longbows at 2-range anyway, due to terrain.

 

[dopingman]

CKNs are excellent defensive units and decent on the offense, whilst LBs are stronger on the offense then on defence, especially in hilly terrain where CKNs loose their movement points, making Logstics useless. Considering you are going to war early with China, thanks to their GG buff, CKNs are more powerful with tier 4 promotions then LBs due to the fact that you will usually declare war with England much later and thus have less tier 4 LBs. Also CKNs require a lot of planning and good knowledge of the terrain if you want to be effective, putting a high emphasize on tactical knowledge (movement, damage potential of your enemies and yourself, correct use of meatshields and mobile units, etc.), wheras LBs is just a spotter scout and move in, shoot, rush in cavalry, profit. If you bring unpromoted siege units into uneven terrain you are (most likely) doing something wrong anyway. 2 or 3 early siege units can be very useful if employed correctly, with some obvious exceptions like England or Arabia, but this should be discussed in another topic imo.

Imo the comparison between LBs and CKNs is kinda useless as you want to fight on large landmasses with China, like Pangea or Great Plains whilst playing Continents or Large Islands with England due to their utterly broken SotL and MP bonus from their UA. Now go compare a melon to an apple, gg

 

[The Pilgrim]

You need terrain knowledge if you want to be successful at war regardless what units you use. For LB's it's not enough though, because they can't target all exposed tiles in 2nd ring due to bug.