Longbow vs Chu

[OwlRaider]

CKN are stronger than LB before the 4th promotion, after the 4th promotion LB becomes stronger since they don't carry over the attack penalty of the CKN and because CKN with logistics is wasted since there aren't enough movement points for 3 attacks. So in a standard game with a standard CB rush, you should generally have plenty of experience on your CBs so when you turn them to LB/CKN you should be at or very near the 4th promotion, making LB the superior choice most of the times. With that said, you need to look at the rest of what China and England bring to the table, not just their unique ranged unit.

 

[guinsoo]

I do think the CKN is better; too often the terrain (and the targeting bug) render the LB ability moot. However in the particular situation where you're kiting, CKNs are kinda worse than Xbows. LB can be better in some situations for sure, and are a great unit overall.

Buuuut I love the Ships of the Line, so I usually go England before China if I want domination on continents or islands.

 

[digrosz]

You have to take into account that the CKN comes with an amazing civilization, and the LB come with a 'meh' civilization

 

[JanghanHong]

China is amazing. But few people remember that it's been nerfed over 9000 times since Vanilla, how good was China before the nerf? There are no survivors that can tell the tale.

 

[ssnitrousoxide]

CKN can level up much faster than LB since they attack twice per turn. That means it's easier to get +1 range on CKN than logistics on LB.

 

[kirbdog]

You have to take into account that the CKN comes with an amazing civilization, and the LB come with a 'meh' civilization

I like spies. I like China too, but I definitely like spies. I like longbows, and I like CKN. I like super-generals, I like paper makers, and I like SotL. It's like asking a kid to choose between cake and ice cream. They're both good, and the rest is just splitting hairs.

 

[Crafty Bison]

Longbows are better if you started them off as archers and have already almost got them to the 4th promotion by machinery. They have a higher combat strength, so can do more damage and take a little too.

CKN's are better for spamming out in the medieval, as they already have 'logistics', and don't need any prior promotion. Then they lose their combat strength weakness on upgrade to gatling guns.

Conclusion: Depends when and how you are doing your war.

 

[imMapex]

I just won my first Deity game last night (China, Science, Pangaea) and I can honestly say I would have lost had I not had my CKN. I had a runaway Genghis on my western borders, and a 2nd place Monty on my eastern. They both DoW'd me right before I was finishing Education and I was barely able to survive the first wave with pure CB + Horsemen. Problem was I had to invest all my gold that I had originally planned for RA's into units, putting me behind significantly.

Once I beeline'd Machinery after Education and started getting CKN, I was successfully able to defend 2 fronts of warmongering Deity armies while investing my gold into boosting my tech and Science. I even managed to push Monty back with my original CKN, thus getting him to give me a generous peace treaty deal (which again went to boosting my tech and Science).

Tl;dr I love me some of that CKN

 

[Gucumatz]

England > China imo as a whole, but that's a different discussion. I play mostly multiplayer and Cho-Ko-Nuh are pretty much gg if you let someone build them en-masse. There are a few civs though that can pretty much counter them, England is one with the range. The overlapping range offers more tactical options imo than a Cho-Ko-Nuh does. Personally I prefer the longbow over the Cho-Ko-nuh, but both are amazing units.

 

[KaptainK714]

I usually promote my Comp bowman with war against a nearby city state. i take i bit of hit Dip-wise but I get to Logistics then get the range bonus when I upgrade to LB. Ive only played China once so dont have much exp with CKN but I think the same promotion stratagy would work.
I also havent used Trebs on G&K lately as the set up and lack of defense means i lose too many. Does anyone try to promote Cat early to get to range/log and make city bomb against AI easier?

 

[Ninakoru]

Chus are far better IMO. As said before once level 4, LBs are better, but comparing logistics vs range, logistics win. (they have less power, but the GG +15% partially makes up for it). You get GGs and promotions much faster, you end with both much faster..

Not to mention one thing that is quite interesting. The ability to shoot-move. Something quite useful when you want to shoot another ranged or melee at 2 cells (non-rough) distance and not leaving them option to attack later. LBs also can keep distance but the terrain could be an issue, you can't move-shoot into rough terrain, while the chus shoot-move let you do that, not to mention the range visibility issues.

 

[Civ4Pengbo]

This thread prompted me to play England and China to compare them and I have to say I got way more out of Longbows than I did CKN. I think it's my playing style but I much prefer 3 range even with the bug as I found it easier to get promotions with LB than with CKN. I found myself delaying industrial to play with LB longer but couldn't wait to get it with CKN.

 

[Catan_Settler]

I too prefer longbows-- the range makes all the difference. While on the surface you would think the best way to get highly promoted troops is more experience (ie: two attacks), in practice the best strategy for getting highly promoted troops is to have your troops survive. Being able to shoot from outside of city range (ie: not taking counter fire), and some more combat strength to weather the counter attacks, leads to longbows surviving longer and therefore becoming more highly promoted. I have found this general approach seems to work better in a lot of different games, even RPGs. The point isn't doing the maximum damage possible, it's being able to survive a dragged out combat and live to heal and fight again.

 

[Civ4Pengbo]

I found I had to turn up with way more CKN to get the job done as you would get 4 in close with something to distract them. They would target a CKN and I would need to move it away and then use the other 3 twice and hope it was enough to get the city down to melee unit range for taking. Trying to surround a city with that many units is hard as generally getting the logistics of moving that many units that close that fast means you lose units and I hate losing troops. I think it's an OCD thing I just can't do it.

A least with the 3rd ring there are more possibilities and you don't have to get the job done in one go.