Looks like Civ 6 is done: Kevin called April "final game update"

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

GET RID OF BUILDERS.

I agree.
Let's get rid of builders and instead have separate civilian units such as farmers, fishermen, stonemasons, miners etc. if we want this to be a true grand strategy game.

I'm not really being serious, but honestly I wouldn't hate it if this were the case.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

and again. Come up with an actual argument

Because you are asking a computers to do all the work for you. Builders are essential like in any resources management game.

 

[TreVor_ish]

Let's get rid of builders and instead have separate civilian units such as farmers, fishermen, stonemasons, miners etc. if we want this to be a true grand strategy game.

City Lights already does this. (however builders are still here)

I don't mind micro.
We already have automatic roads thanks to traders, however I would also let builders do them, (easily to mod, but I would like to see it in vanilla) roads were important since the dawn of time, and military engineers cost too much to use them that way.
Build charges were rather successful transition from immortal workers, I was skeptical at first, but from gameplay perspective - the additional careful planning of using every single one of them, specially in early game, well, I like it.
I wouldn't mind adding auto repair. Also, being able to queue in production prerequisites would be awesome.

 

[aieeegrunt]

I agree.
Let's get rid of builders and instead have separate civilian units such as farmers, fishermen, stonemasons, miners etc. if we want this to be a true grand strategy game.

I'm not really being serious, but honestly I wouldn't hate it if this were the case.

Bwa ha ha “Yo dawg I heard you like micromanagent”

Because you are asking a computers to do all the work for you. Builders are essential like in any resources management game.

Do you literally have nothing to offer but straw and non sequiters? (A rhetorical question at this point)

At no point did I say anything like that. I have said, here and elsewhere that it would save a lot of pointless busywork if farms etc were treated like other buildings as something you constructed with production/gold/faith like other city infrastructure, since infrastructure is infastructure and the distinction between a farm and a library is 110% arbitrary.

As far as workers being some sort of “essential” component of a 4X game, congratulations. You came up with an argument and it’s demonstrably false. Plenty of 4X games have existed without it. Several civilization games in face have existed without it

 

[bbbt]

But please, stop yelling all the time in these forums that everybody hates micro-management. It's totally untrue. I love micro-management. I love taking 15 minutes on a single turn once in a while because I'm over thinking things.

Taking 15 minutes 'once in a while' to overthink a decision is the opposite of micromanagement. That's making big strategic decisions. Micromanagement is taking 15 minutes every turn doing lots of little decisions that require like 5 clicks each.

I'd suggested replacing Builders by building improvements with production from the city queue. Same decisions (what to spent prod on, what to improve next). Less clicking. Ability to queue up a bunch of decisions.

Conversely:
-Should Civ stop assigning new population to a tile automatically and force the player to do it with every pop growth?
-Why is there unit pathfinding? Players should move all their units manually hex by hex. Is that how you'd prefer to play?

When I personally say I want less micromanagement, I generally want:
-Less clicking and a better UI - queuing orders (production, governor, movement) for example. Grouping units in a formation to move.
-More impactful decisions. You can change policy cards so often it's essentially meaningless. What if you could only change them say only with a change in government or era, and otherwise you had to pay?

 

[aieeegrunt]

Taking 15 minutes 'once in a while' to overthink a decision is the opposite of micromanagement. That's making big strategic decisions. Micromanagement is taking 15 minutes every turn doing lots of little decisions that require like 5 clicks each.

I'd suggested replacing Builders by building improvements with production from the city queue. Same decisions (what to spent prod on, what to improve next). Less clicking. Ability to queue up a bunch of decisions.

Conversely:
-Should Civ stop assigning new population to a tile automatically and force the player to do it with every pop growth?
-Why is there unit pathfinding? Players should move all their units manually hex by hex. Is that how you'd prefer to play?

When I personally say I want less micromanagement, I generally want:
-Less clicking and a better UI - queuing orders (production, governor, movement) for example. Grouping units in a formation to move.
-More impactful decisions. You can change policy cards so often it's essentially meaningless. What if you could only change them say only with a change in government or era, and otherwise you had to pay?

You can leave builders in the game, just give us the option to purchase improvements.

Infrastructure is infrastructure

 

[SammyKhalifa]

I tend to think I'd want to keep builders too, but I'd be willing to see what replaced them. It would be pretty disappointing if it was just something else for the build queue.

People threw a fit when transport ship were removed too, after all. That's worked out just fine.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

City Lights already does this. (however builders are still here)

I don't mind micro.
We already have automatic roads thanks to traders, however I would also let builders do them, (easily to mod, but I would like to see it in vanilla) roads were important since the dawn of time, and military engineers cost too much to use them that way.
Build charges were rather successful transition from immortal workers, I was skeptical at first, but from gameplay perspective - the additional careful planning of using every single one of them, specially in early game, well, I like it.
I wouldn't mind adding auto repair. Also, being able to queue in production prerequisites would be awesome.

I agree with this. I believe that I am in the middle when it comes to this argument(I'm a Josip Broz Tito of this forum, lol), and I absolutely agree that Builders should be able to build Roads as well. Traders should keep their ability to create Roads, but Builders, with or with not at the expense of a Build Charge, should also be able to construct Roads.

 

[Zegangani]

People threw a fit when transport ship were removed too, after all. That's worked out just fine.

Tbh, I was kinda sad when I played my first Civ VI game and realized that Land Units can Embark and move freely on coast/ocean without the need of a transportation Ships. It's one of the major Things that I wish to have a return in Civ VII.

Anyone knows if Humankind has that Systeme? or is it like in civ VI?

 

[pokiehl]

Good riddance to transport ships.

Nothing wrong with builders but I think moving away from charges and more towards the Civ 5 way will be better and alleviate a lot of tedium.

 

[Zaarin]

I'm firmly in favor of Builders staying, but I will never miss transport ships. Cities already have too many things to build to make constructing improvements from the city center desirable IMO; the only thing to make such a thing feasible would be to make it possible for cities to build more than one thing at once...and that sounds like even more micromanagement to me.

 

[TreVor_ish]

Anyone knows if Humankind has that Systeme? or is it like in civ VI?

Humankind has a similar system to CIV VI - units embark into ships after researching certain technology.

There are differences though.
Unit embarked vessels will upgrade through tech tree. It means with progress, embarked units will be less vulnerable on sea and even be able to retaliate and not just be sitting ducks.
You can swim into ocean and even end a turn on ocean tile without appropriate technology, but that unit will loose some (half?) of its HP if it will end turn on ocean, and will die if next turn will end on another ocean tile.

 

[Gedemon]

I think there's a good form of balance in there somewhere. I really wouldn't mind if, say, early on you were still limited by builders. But perhaps when you unlock Urbanization or so, then you would gain the ability to buy tile improvements with gold, and eliminate that late game micro. I might still take 15 minutes to run through and plan out farm triangles and campus spots and the like, but I can use that time to actually figure out the strategic aspects, and not the tedious bits.

That's a design that have been proposed a few time (not that particular one, I mean allowing micromanagement in the early game then allowing automation in the later part of the game), and this seems a good idea.

Tbh, I was kinda sad when I played my first Civ VI game and realized that Land Units can Embark and move freely on coast/ocean without the need of a transportation Ships. It's one of the major Things that I wish to have a return in Civ VII.

Anyone knows if Humankind has that Systeme? or is it like in civ VI?

I don't know how it works for HK, but I think something a bit similar to Old World could work: allow embarking only if there is some kind of naval support nearby (but always allow embarking from city/harbor)

I'm firmly in favor of Builders staying, but I will never miss transport ships. Cities already have too many things to build to make constructing improvements from the city center desirable IMO; the only thing to make such a thing feasible would be to make it possible for cities to build more than one thing at once...and that sounds like even more micromanagement to me.

I can imagine a design where you get points that can be used for improvements, but with the ability to prioritize the next one(s).

More globally, I don't see micromanagement as a bad thing in a game, but it should be a player choice, not an obligation.

 

[Zegangani]

I'm firmly in favor of Builders staying, but I will never miss transport ships. Cities already have too many things to build to make constructing improvements from the city center desirable IMO; the only thing to make such a thing feasible would be to make it possible for cities to build more than one thing at once...and that sounds like even more micromanagement to me.

Perhaps making Encampments/Harbors being able to build Units might be a good solution to that. They don't have to split Production with CC, but have their own Production (for Units only) that scales with Technology and Bonusses. CC could (have to, actually) still build Units, though.
Why shouldn't a City build an Infrastructure while also training Units? They are completely different things.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

Tbh, I was kinda sad when I played my first Civ VI game and realized that Land Units can Embark and move freely on coast/ocean without the need of a transportation Ships. It's one of the major Things that I wish to have a return in Civ VII.

why?

 

[TreVor_ish]

Perhaps making Encampments/Harbors being able to build Units might be a good solution to that. They don't have to split Production with CC, but have their own Production (for Units only) that scales with Technology and Bonusses. CC could (have to, actually) still build Units, though.
Why shouldn't a City build an Infrastructure while also training Units? They are completely different things.

Having separate build queues for city center and districts is an interesting idea actually Infrastructure for CC and everything else for appropriate districts (units or specialized improvements).
However You should still be able to build everything from CC.
And with growing number of cities, it would have to have a good UI to not feel too tedious and clicky.

 

[pokiehl]

Perhaps making Encampments/Harbors being able to build Units might be a good solution to that. They don't have to split Production with CC, but have their own Production (for Units only) that scales with Technology and Bonusses. CC could (have to, actually) still build Units, though.
Why shouldn't a City build an Infrastructure while also training Units? They are completely different things.

Splitting production trees will be a mess, and the map will be absolutely flooded with units because everyone will always be producing them.

Being forced to choose between infrastructure or units is a fundamental aspect of this series. It leads to interesting decision making. Otherwise you’re just always making infrastructure and always making units at the same time.

 

[fy00sh]

You can swim into ocean and even end a turn on ocean tile without appropriate technology, but that unit will loose some (half?) of its HP if it will end turn on ocean, and will die if next turn will end on another ocean tile.

Did that change since the Lucy OpenDev? I remember that in that build you actually just got the "Lost at sea" status from ending a turn in an ocean tile, and if you ended a turn in an ocean tile with that status you lost the unit, while if you ended a turn in shallow water with that status you lost the status, with no penalty to health. Made for an ocean exploring strategy whereby you could just end a turn next to the edge of shallow and deep water, next turn go as far out to sea as you could, and then next turn go back where you came from and repeat that to explore like 7 or so tiles out from land, or 8 with the Great Lighthouse.
This, by the way, is a system I wish Civ would adopt, so long as it's accompanied by winds that make travel in some directions easier and others harder. As-is in Humankind, it feels a little cheesy.

 

[Zegangani]

why?

I get why the Devs removed it from Civ V/VII. balance and smouth Gameplay always play a role, but I don't like how I can freely embark my land Units and move them freely on Sea. I mean how can a Melee Unit instantly embark into a Boat that transports the Units? Gather Timber from the near Forests and instantly build a Ship, and often times being able to move after the embarkation? I like more realistic gameplay (not for everything), and that I don't.

 

[Kwami]

How would chopping work without builders? Do you spend a turn of production in the city to chop a forest, then keep that production for the next turn? That's kind of awkward. I recall that previous games had fishing boats built in cities instead of being built my workers. That made fishing resources substantially less valuable than other resources. I guess the difference disappears if everything is done from the city, though... Eh.

I guess I like builders. I like to move things around on the map. Clicking "build farm" in the city queue doesn't seem as engaging to me. I never liked how Endless Legend did that for improving resources. It always felt weird.