Looks like Civ 6 is done: Kevin called April "final game update"

[Kwami]

why harvesting should by tied to getting production only ? why not getting resources from harvesting ?

and even if it is, then no one as said that you absolutely have to put improvements in the city build queue, it's a possibility amongst others.

It's not that you'd only get production from resource harvesting. It's that the production case feels awkward and bad. Getting food or gold wouldn't feel as weird.

But if resource harvesting isn't in the build queue and we don't have builders, then what? No harvesting at all?

 

[AntSou]

but don't people come to countries to get local luxuries? I know Koreans traditionally loved to go to Paris to get Paris brand... I don't know about now but at least in 1990's Korean people loved to visit Paris to get Paris brand perfumes and stuff. I believe this sort of tourism is what Industries mod is MEANT to represent. It isn't just old factories that they are visiting but famous brand.

it isn't that sort of luxury you know but a world class premium brand- like Louis Vuitton Even three years ago when I went to paris my dad and his friends visited Louis Vuitton shopping mall to get a good look at it and people lined up to see it. This is what "Corporation/Industry" is representing. Heck even in Korea people often visit Samsung shopping mall to get latest Samung cellphone.

I don't see it like that at all. Can you even offer me a list of such products?

To the extent that it aims to represent anything in Civ 6, it would more likely be the representation of phenomenons like Americanisation or other forms of cultural globalization caused by companies selling their products. Levi's & Coca-Cola, as Abaxial suggested.

Going abroad to buy a specific product sounds like a very miniscule phenomenon in comparison, more telling of the culture the tourist comes from than the culture of the country being visited.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

I don't see it like that at all. Can you even offer me a list of such products?

To the extent that it aims to represent anything in Civ 6, it would more likely be the representation of phenomenons like Americanisation or other forms of cultural globalization caused by companies selling their products. Levi's & Coca-Cola, as Abaxial suggested.

Going abroad to buy a specific product sounds like a very miniscule phenomenon in comparison, more telling of the culture the tourist comes from than the culture of the country being visited.

Maybe it is both? People coming to the country to buy a product and spreading their culture as a result of the product being famous in other nation.
For example with Samsung- Some people would come to Korea to buy Samsung cellphone... and as a result people brand of Samsung would be more famous and people will get culturally influenced by Samsung.

 

[Zegangani]

Tourism is one of many results of a good Economy, but it can't be a represenation of it in a Culture Victory.

Actually, Tourism could also lead to a good Economy. so it can be both result and reason of that. Take Morocco as an example, Tourists visiting it isn't because of it's Industries... but of the rich Culture it has, Attractions/Showplaces, Unique Cuisine... etc. And due to the current Times (Covid), The economy of Morocco is suffering very much, because it's a Country that relies a lot on Tourism (same as Spain).

 

[Abaxial]

My goodness, if Samsung could only sell their phones to people who travelled to Korea for it, they would be out of business in no time at all.

I will give an example that I think is relevant. When I first visited Spain, there was a popular cola drink called Kas-Col, which (IMO) was a lot nicer than Coca-Cola. Go into a local supermarket and there would be shelves full of Kas-Col and an orange drink also made by Kas. Go to a Spanish supermarket now, and you would be hard put to find Kas drinks - there might be some at the back, but there are shelves and shelves of Coca-Cola and Fanta. That's a monopoly for you, and cultural dominance. It says nothing about Spaniards visiting the US.

Interesting quiz question for you all: what is the only country in the World where Coca-Cola is not the leading soft drink? There is only one, and it might be hard to guess. It annoys the hell out of Coca-Cola executives, as in their greed they want the whole world.

 

[tedhebert]

Taking 15 minutes 'once in a while' to overthink a decision is the opposite of micromanagement. That's making big strategic decisions. Micromanagement is taking 15 minutes every turn doing lots of little decisions that require like 5 clicks each.

I'd suggested replacing Builders by building improvements with production from the city queue. Same decisions (what to spent prod on, what to improve next). Less clicking. Ability to queue up a bunch of decisions.

Conversely:
-Should Civ stop assigning new population to a tile automatically and force the player to do it with every pop growth?
-Why is there unit pathfinding? Players should move all their units manually hex by hex. Is that how you'd prefer to play?

When I personally say I want less micromanagement, I generally want:
-Less clicking and a better UI - queuing orders (production, governor, movement) for example. Grouping units in a formation to move.
-More impactful decisions. You can change policy cards so often it's essentially meaningless. What if you could only change them say only with a change in government or era, and otherwise you had to pay?

That's a fair argument for me. I'd rather Keep it as is personnally, but I can totally relate. I only use UI mods (and no game changing mods) specifically because base game UI s*@&s tons...
But to be honest, I take 5-10 minutes most turns, in truth ;-) I'm just weird like that !

And that's fine, same with transport ship.

Management is a part of the game, some micro-management will always be required unless you automate everything and stop playing, just watch an AI battle royal, but as with other elements of the game, people have preferences about what they'd like to manage and what they'd prefer automated, either for immersion or interesting decisions.

Much better put than my original rant. .

An interesting discussion about builders, sorry to barge in in the middle

While I agree in principle that the tasks they do can be integrated into the build queue, having a physical unit on the map does add some extra thrill and avenues. What about all those builders you take from the barbs or enemies? Back then when they were immortal, spotting an unprotected builder did lead to quite a number of early wars, I'm sure, so that was one of the factors that could define the direction your game would take. Even with limited charges as they are now, it is always satisfying to source some builders from outside for free, isn't it? Aztecs can almost run their entire empire on "guest" workers only. How would you integrate this aspect into the build queue model? Build a raiding party project with an rng chance?

Making improvements dependent on the technologies you research was a master stroke for CivRev, but it was developed as a much faster paced game for consoles and fumbling with the controller - the less units you have to move with it the better, hence another neat idea of grouping 3 units into armies, borrowed so efficiently into Civ 6

On the whole, I like builders best as they are now, with limited charges and instant improvements and present on the map. But yes, give them ability to build roads after some tech is researched. The current charge price and limitation to the ME is outrageous, even more so, as after a while you can lay railroads at will, free of any charges, just using some resources.

Agreed !

 

[Chocolate Pi]

The point of a "cultural victory" isn't literally getting them walking on your soil, it's just getting them wearing your blue jeans. Probably also involves having more blue checkmarks on Twitter.

 

[PiR]

Interesting quiz question for you all: what is the only country in the World where Coca-Cola is not the leading soft drink? There is only one, and it might be hard to guess. It annoys the hell out of Coca-Cola executives, as in their greed they want the whole world.

... The US?

It reminds me of which country scores second after the USA for McDonald's. It's... France, "country of refined food".

The point of a "cultural victory" isn't literally getting them walking on your soil, it's just getting them wearing your blue jeans. Probably also involves having more blue checkmarks on Twitter.

Yes, but then it should not be measured with the wording "tourism" (and the icon of a luggage). I think that's the point being made.

 

[Kwami]

... The US?

There is no correct answer. The usual answer is Scotland, but that's not factual. Coke isn't sold in a number of other countries because of US trade embargoes (e.g. Cuba, North Korea). I can't seem to find solid numbers, but I wouldn't be surprised if Coke has overtaken Irn Bru in Scotland, too.

(And if you want to get technical, there are lots of countries where "Coca-Cola" isn't #1. In a number of them, the actual leading soft drink is owned or partially owned by The Coca-Cola Company, but it's Coke itself. For example, Thumbs Up in India.

 

[PiR]

When I went to Mexico, in some places (San Cristobal de las Casas for example), Coca-Cola was cheaper than water.

What kind of Victory does this grant?

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Why so many people want an economic victory? I remember people complaining about DipV in Civ V because it was just an economic victory already.
Also, if we have to keep different winning conditions, we need to keep them distinct enough, and not only in flavor, and an economic victory would feel, for me, too close to any other else.
Would an Economic Victory be simply ammassing gold? Too simple, and no victoy condition should rely on one of the main currency of the game (the other one being faith). Faith for CulV is OK, I guess, because faith would be useless otherwise and is way useful than gold. Mali and Portugal would simply be autowin in this situation.
Extending the Monop&Corp mode, so that if you control enough resources/corporations you win? That's too similar to the Religious Victory.
Some "Economic Proeminence" towards other civ, where your economy control it? That's just Cultural Victory with another name.
I don't think we need an economic victory. Gold is not supposed to be an end in itself, it's supposed to be a tool, a tool used for various victory paths (buying units for Domination, spaceports for Science, theater squares/great works/GWAM for Culture, diplomatic favors for Diplomacy... only Religious Victory cannot be achieved through gold). For me, asking for an "Economic Victory" makes as much sense as wanting a "Production Victory". Production is the base of the game, gold is omnipresent, keep them like that, as tools useful for everyone but not an end in themselves.

I think an economic victory would essentially replace a religious victory as you said. I do see it as extending the monopolies and corporations mode for Civ 7. It's too late to think about an economic victory for Civ 6.

Actually, Tourism could also lead to a good Economy. so it can be both result and reason of that. Take Morocco as an example, Tourists visiting it isn't because of it's Industries... but of the rich Culture it has, Attractions/Showplaces, Unique Cuisine... etc. And due to the current Times (Covid), The economy of Morocco is suffering very much, because it's a Country that relies a lot on Tourism (same as Spain).

Which is why we need a health mechanic as well which could impact your culture and economy.

 

[Kwami]

Which is why we need a health mechanic as well which could impact your culture and economy.

Well, housing + amenities is basically a health mechanic. And if you don't have enough, then your culture and economy do suffer.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Well, housing + amenities is basically a health mechanic. And if you don't have enough, then your culture and economy do suffer.

That is more like wishful thinking for Civ 7 where housing could possibly be replaced with health.

 

[Kwami]

That is more like wishful thinking for Civ 7 where housing could possibly be replaced with health.

Aside from the name change, what's the real difference?

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Aside from the name change, what's the real difference?

I'm sure there definitely would be differences from Civ 6 to Civ 7, considering happiness and amenities were even different between iterations.

I don't see it directly replacing it word for word like +3 health if you settle on freshwater.

 

[PiR]

Aside from the name change, what's the real difference?

Health would not need to be as static as housing, it could degrade with diseases spread through cities for example. It could be improved through securing resources.

 

[aieeegrunt]

But it's not arbitrary, though. Tile improvements (excepting the unique ones) provide basic yields (food, production, gold). Districts provide advanced yields (science, culture, faith, great people points) and slots for specialists (more advanced yields). Time improvements are one per tile. Districts provide for multiple improvements in a tile. Tile improvements are limited only by available land. Districts are (mostly) one per city. These seem like important, non-arbitrary differences to me.

These are all arbitrary restrictions. You could change all of that in the game’s code in a millisecond. There is no reason you couldn’t have a farming district that you could put buildings in. There is also no reason you couldn’t have mutliple districts except it’s currently an arbitrary rule

Merging improvements and would actually streamline and simplify gameplay. Your district limit is your population limit.

Green Districts aren't tied to those restrictions (or population), you can freely build them in a city as much as you want. Improvements could be turned into such. I mean there is actually no much difference between them and the Green Districts anyway, except that you can build 1 of 2 Buildings in Neighborhoods. Which actually would fit to a Farm District Improvement that can hold a Pasture Improvement Building.

Exactly this. It’s a completely arbitrary distinction that just clutters up and complicates things

Even the AI could use it, but it would not work well with 1upt IMO.


it's the exact same thing for improvements.

say you want a farm

you have to put a builder in the queue, wait for it to be completed, move it to the plot (hoping there won't be another civ unit there), all for what ?

Pointless busywork. Every time I play another 4X game or Civ title and then come back to this I head desk.

Ha, okay, I guess. And tomatoes are not apples, I agree.

But both are micromanaging. Or fruits.

I feel your pain believe me

All the folks arguing against builders still haven't answered the question about resource harvesting. How does that work without builders?

The exact same way? A menu comes up with the Bulldozer as an option?

You just don’t have a cavalcade of busywork getting to that decision point.

 

[8housesofelixir]

Civ VI's Housing and Amenities mechanic, aka the limiting factors on growth and expansion, is the least punitive in the series. Ignoring Happiness or Health in IV or V would crash your empire, while ignoring Housing and Amenities in VI usually just makes your empire lagging behind.

I would like to see more emphases on these limitations in VII - since VI's are too ineffective - while not being as punishing as in V.

 

[civac]

Civ5's restrictive happiness system is one of the worst things about it.

Ignoring happiness and health in Civ4 would lead to stagnation similar to Civ6. Stagnation = losing. There is no need to be more punishing than that. It turns short term problems into huges crises that inhabit your ability to solve the initial problem.

 

[Gedemon]

It's not that you'd only get production from resource harvesting. It's that the production case feels awkward and bad. Getting food or gold wouldn't feel as weird.

But if resource harvesting isn't in the build queue and we don't have builders, then what? No harvesting at all?

I'll be fine with no harvesting, I don't like the current implementation, but as we said, there are other methods than the build queue to place improvement (local or national) you could use the same method for resource harvesting.