Lost Eden development thread

[vyeh]

I'm sorry I didn't gave feedback in my last post. I'm not really good with feedback.

You did give feedback. You said you loved the map.

it really feels as a real and believable new world.

This is the most important comment.

My apologies in advance if I'm going too far.

No such thing. Take a look at some of my posts in this thread. I was a nitpicker and all Kilkakon did was thank me.

1. In the southern part of the map is a continent with a shipwreckage on it. I noticed that in comparison with some other continents this one is very dry and might be more difficult to build an empire on.

That is an unfortunate side effect of the Starship wreckage; it's all arid and casts a pretty big rain shadow. I can add some rivers on the western side if you think that would help.

It might be possible to stack individual Monsoon Jungle squares on top of the landmark. Also nutrient bonus squares can be put anywhere.

2. At the northwestern continent I counted 4 special landmarks but IMHO it feels a little unbalanced to have them all here. (Strawberry Fields, Ruins, Gold field and Garland Crater.) There are 2 other smaller continents (Seafoam island in the southwest and the island Proving Grounds) who don't have a Landmark yet.

Placing the Fields was tough. I placed them where they are so they are a bit smaller than usual. The idea of that continent was that if two people land on it it'll be pretty interesting, but I have yet to have a game where two people did. I'm happy to move Meora's Legacy to Proving Grounds though.

Seafoam Island and the neighbouring isles are deliberately small -- it's the reason the Seafoam Collective faction exists! They move from it because they ran out of room. Obviously any human starting there would make a beeline to Naval Exploration.

In the game that my friend and I have been playing, the Assassins started on the tiny bit of land above Janus Strait! Talk about poor starting position. Rakis started on Iceveil Headland but managed to get a boat across and build a few cities on the major landmass nearby. Betrayed started on Proving Grounds and hopped over to the major landmass too. True Arena was on Seafoam Island. -- Seriously only Adventurers and I got a start on a continent! (friend was pirates)

JH24, good point.

Kilkakon, besides making a map, you might try creating a scenario where you place your first seven factions and then playtest the scenario to see how balanced the starting positions are.

3. The southeastern continent looks great but IMHO it feels as if there's too little variation regarding land and perhaps a bit too much of the land to settle on. If you wish, you could for example add a mountain range, hills or small inland lakes/seas to reduce some of the land a little.

Plenty of landmarks though! I can cut the mountain in half though (the SErn part is just one large mountain) or perhaps enlargen Dragon Bay slighty. Looking at it again, I'm pretty happy with the size but am willing to consider losing a few squares in the name of balance.

I like the idea of inland lakes.

4. I don't know exactly what the function will be of the mystic ruins, but I felt the location of these ruins is a bit flat. The ruins don't really stand out from the map. For example you could surround them with a group of mountains or put them on an elevated landmark to increase their importance.

The game makes the land flat there so they don't appear dodgy, same for Starship Wreckage. The Ruins give controlling factions +1 PLANET.

I like the idea of surrounding them with a barrier.

If you have any specific questions or want me to focus on special parts of your map, please let me know. I'll really do my best to help.

Sure well I feel pretty good about it overall. What do you think of what I said above?

JH24, maybe if you would replicate your comment about real and believable in the download section, that would be helpful.

Kilkakon, I think a few iterations of the map is in order, especially since you have someone to provide feedback. It would be nice to have a new map that single players can enjoy.

I hope my comments are understandable. I am use to only having to respond to one person at a time.

 

[Kilkakon]

No such thing. Take a look at some of my posts in this thread. I was a nitpicker and all Kilkakon did was thank me.

Improvements are always good.

It might be possible to stack individual Monsoon Jungle squares on top of the landmark. Also nutrient bonus squares can be put anywhere.

Food bonuses can work yeah.

JH24, good point.

Kilkakon, besides making a map, you might try creating a scenario where you place your first seven factions and then playtest the scenario to see how balanced the starting positions are.[/QUOTE]
It's a thought! Slight problem in that the AI is quite bad in comparison to me though.

I like the idea of inland lakes.

...
I like the idea of surrounding them with a barrier.[/QUOTE]
All ideas! I could copy SMAC and surround the Mystic Ruins with monoliths.

...
Kilkakon, I think a few iterations of the map is in order, especially since you have someone to provide feedback.. It would be nice to have a new map that single players can enjoy.

I'm not sure what you meant by "iterations" (I only know the programmer term) but if you mean updating the download, then I'm definitely happy to do that as it's only by the comments of others than I can get an idea about balance and so on. As soon we have some concrete dot points of things for me to implement then I can get to it.

I hope my comments are understandable. I am use to only having to respond to one person at a time.

Don't worry, I can follow!

 

[vyeh]

It's a thought! Slight problem in that the AI is quite bad in comparison to me though.

There is a method in which you can have the AIs play against each other. See the SMAX manual on your disk under Designer's Notes in the back.

Later you could have human to human play against a friend.

I could copy SMAC and surround the Mystic Ruins with monoliths.

Monoliths would stand out. That would be good.

I'm not sure what you meant by "iterations" (I only know the programmer term) but if you mean updating the download, then I'm definitely happy to do that as it's only by the comments of others than I can get an idea about balance and so on. As soon we have some concrete dot points of things for me to implement then I can get to it.

I meant put out a second draft and let JH24 respond to that. Then a third draft, etc.

 

[Kilkakon]

There is a method in which you can have the AIs play against each other. See the SMAX manual on your disk under Designer's Notes in the back.

Later you could have human to human play against a friend.

Oh that's what you meant. Yeah I've done that many times before and am willing to do it again when people are happy. I'll give it a go after I get some input for this version (see below).

I meant put out a second draft and let JH24 respond to that. Then a third draft, etc.

Okay here's the next version (I won't attempt to update the main download until we have a version with which we are satisfied)! I've moved Meora's Legacy to Proving Grounds, made the southern continent considerably less arid (it's mostly moist now), made the Mystic Ruins area more interesting with a few monoliths and enlarged Dragon Bay.

What do you think JH24?


Offtopic: Hehe grr we aren't allowed to upload .mp files.

 

[Petek]

Responding to various posts in this thread:

1. I "unstickied" the announcement about the new SMACX downloads sections just to keep the first page of threads uncluttered. When Kilkakon releases the final version of his mod, we will certainly highlight it. I'll probably create a new thread to do so, since this thread is quite long.

2. I don't know how to modify a file in the downloads sections. Probably an admin can do so. Kilkakon - Let me know when you are satisfied with your map and I'll see what I can do.

3. vyeh is correct about the method for having the AIs play each other. I've done this lots of times. Let me know if you need more detailed instructions how to do so.

 

[Kilkakon]

I know how to do AI runs, I've done them plenty of times before! I was merely unsure what vyeh meant, hence the confusion. Thanks for the other points Petek -- I'll let you know when I have another one (and a finalised one) so I don't have to get you doing the run around more than once.

And heh, this thread is a life story almost!

 

[vyeh]

I'll probably create a new thread to do so, since this thread is quite long.

I hope that isn't a complaint. When we get to 388 replies, that will equal the sum of the next two threads in order of number of replies. (Note that scient's 'poly thread is 540!)

this thread is a life story almost!

In the future, when someone asks about how to create a mod, Petek and I will have this thread as a link.

This is precisely one of the things a good SMAC forum should provide. Your first post was a request for assistance on your SMAC project and you got the assistance you needed.

 

[JH24]

I'm sorry for my late reply, but yesterday turned out more busy than I thought.

@ Vyeh

No problem. I'll post my comment tonight in the download section.


@ Kilkakon


Thank you for your replies and comments. I really wish I could reply back to them all but I don't have enough time at the moment.


I have looked at your new map and tested it last night. I really like the changes a lot, I especially noticed the new Mystic Ruins. IMHO I think the map is very close to perfect.


The only continent I'm a little worried about is the one with the Volcano and Razor Ridge. It is more dry from the middle, although on the other hand the faction who lands here does have 2 landmarks so perhaps it balances out.


If everything goes well, I'll take another look at your map tonight and try to run an AI test.

 

[vyeh]

I'll post my comment tonight in the download section.

Thank you!

 

[Kilkakon]

I have nothing to say at this point other than let me know how you go JH24! I am pretty happy with the northern central area as it's all coastal so it's easy to get food and production (in LE at least).

This has been a great thread hey, people geniunely interested and helping works wonders for both the product and morale.

 

[Petek]

I hope that isn't a complaint.

(snipped)

Not at all. I just think that a new thread would be appropriate because the topic would change from how to balance custom factions to something like release of new custom factions.

 

[JH24]

I've played with the Eden map some more and ran an AI test until around 2350. (For some reason my computer seemed to hang after that) The Believers located in the northwestern continent (close to Strawberry Fields) became the dominant faction in the game after they conquered the Morganites who were located near the gold fields.

The Peacekeepers located at the southeastern continent also did very well, followed by the Hive at SeaFoam Island. The other AI's did reasonably well (On Proving Grounds, the island with the volcano and the continent with the shipwreck), but couldn't come close to the leaders. Personally I think the difference was more caused by the AI settings and behaviour than by the land. With perhaps the exception to the Believers who might have become this powerful due to the land they started with, but this was often the same with Monsoon Jungle on the "Planet" map as well.


I can't entirely shake the feeling the islands Proving Grounds and Razor Ridge might need a little more fertile ground to keep up with the other continents. The AI's here were a little held back and never got large bases. (But this is probably more due to the AI's bad terraforming)


===


@Vyeh

I've posted a comment in the download section.

 

[Kilkakon]

I'ld agree with Fields being a very strong landmark. Believers vs. Morgans is a pretty foregone conclusion too. I'm happy with the report that you gave, thanks for it!

Do you think a little more rainfall is required for Proving Grounds/Razor Ridge? If you aren't aware, Razor Ridge gives +1 Trade (energy) in every square, which is pretty tough. I'm happy to add a food bonus or two though if you think that it is necessary. It's true that AI terraforming is pretty dunce too, although there's no advanced improvements in Lost Eden.

Thanks for the input JH24.

 

[vyeh]

This has been a great thread hey, people geniunely interested and helping works wonders for both the product and morale.

Has been?!?! I hope we can get some people interested in testing the first version of Lost Eden and commenting. I imagine we will get to 388 and 400 posts just working on the map pretty soon. And 500 and 540 aren't unrealistic.

Not at all. I just think that a new thread would be appropriate because the topic would change from how to balance custom factions to something like release of new custom factions.

Actually, custom factions is misleading. It should say something like release of a new mod since there is also extensive alphax.txt editing.

I've played with the Eden map some more and ran an AI test until around 2350. (For some reason my computer seemed to hang after that)

Could you post a save?

With perhaps the exception to the Believers who might have become this powerful due to the land they started with, but this was often the same with Monsoon Jungle on the "Planet" map as well.

That is the problem with the Monsoon Jungle. Sometimes map designers put in small patches of Monsoon Jungles in other areas to balance the map.

I can't entirely shake the feeling the islands Proving Grounds and Razor Ridge might need a little more fertile ground to keep up with the other continents. The AI's here were a little held back and never got large bases. (But this is probably more due to the AI's bad terraforming)

Do you think a little more rainfall is required for Proving Grounds/Razor Ridge? If you aren't aware, Razor Ridge gives +1 Trade (energy) in every square, which is pretty tough. I'm happy to add a food bonus or two though if you think that it is necessary. It's true that AI terraforming is pretty dunce too, although there's no advanced improvements in Lost Eden.

JH24, this is a good observation.

Kilkakon, the problem with the +1 trade/energy is that it is only applicable in Lost Eden if the square is being worked. (There is a grand total of three crawlers among all of the factions.) My inclination would be to add the food bonus or two.

@Vyeh

I've posted a comment in the download section.

I added a comment referencing this thread and the post with the attachment. I use to browse CFC downloads section long before I read the forums, so this might be a way of attracting additional people to this thread.

JH24, what do you think about the landmarks? Are there enough names?

 

[Kilkakon]

Has been?!?! I hope we can get some people interested in testing the first version of Lost Eden and commenting. I imagine we will get to 388 and 400 posts just working on the map pretty soon. And 500 and 540 aren't unrealistic.

Let's do it. Hehe yeah! I'll be sure to try and time the two releases as close together as possible so that this forum remains useful. And hehe I only said "has been" as a "so far" sort of statement.

Actually, custom factions is misleading. It should say something like release of a new mod since there is also extensive alphax.txt editing.

Yeah that's true! I would agree whole-heartedly with a new thread when the game is due for release as then I can focus on marketing and so on.

That is the problem with the Monsoon Jungle. Sometimes map designers put in small patches of Monsoon Jungles in other areas to balance the map.

Yeah . I threw in some more vines over the fields so less squares will be useable initially, which should help.

JH24, this is a good observation.

Kilkakon, the problem with the +1 trade/energy is that it is only applicable in Lost Eden if the square is being worked. (There is a grand total of three crawlers among all of the factions.) My inclination would be to add the food bonus or two.

I've added a bunch of rivers to the Razor Ridge area, which makes most of the land moist. I also added a few Food bonuses to the Proving Grounds. Check out the new attachment at the bottom of this post! God willing this one will be good enough to replace the primary download.

I added a comment referencing this thread and the post with the attachment. I use to browse CFC downloads section long before I read the forums, so this might be a way of attracting additional people to this thread.

Sounds like a plan!

 

[vyeh]

I'll be sure to try and time the two releases as close together as possible so that this forum remains useful.

two releases?

Yeah that's true! I would agree whole-heartedly with a new thread when the game is due for release as then I can focus on marketing and so on.

In another forum, Petek listed the different SMAC/X forums. In particular, there is a German forum that would appreciate Lost Eden.

I threw in some more vines over the fields so less squares will be useable initially, which should help.

That will help.

I've added a bunch of rivers to the Razor Ridge area, which makes most of the land moist.

Is that the one with the mystic ruins?

I also added a few Food bonuses to the Proving Grounds.

Good.

Check out the new attachment at the bottom of this post! God willing this one will be good enough to replace the primary download.

We'll have to see what JH24 says.

Sounds like a plan!

Are you planning to release an alpha version in this thread? We could post notices at other forums saying there is an alpha version available - I think I am registered on most forums and I suspect Petek is registered where I am not, e.g. the German forum. I'm not sure, but I think you can change the title of this thread, I would suggest words like "Lost Eden Total Conversion Mod" be included. If you can't, Petek might be willing to retitle it at your request.

For the beta (and hopefully gold release), you can create a new thread with an appropriate title - again I would suggest including the words "Lost Eden Total Conversion Mod" because it makes searches easier and put the Lost Eden beta version in the OP, which will also have a link to this thread, which should probably be closed. When later versions are released, the OP should be edited to include the latest version. And it would probably make sense to release the beta version to the Downloads section.

There is a group of players that won't be interested in getting involved until there is a final product. So the beta version should be as good as we can get it, but I expect there will be some feedback and small changes. Petek will have some ideas here. There have been very few TC. The 'poly downloads section has 4. There is SMAniaC and Lazytown, so Lost Eden will be joining a very small group.

 

[Kilkakon]

two releases?

Yeah! Well at least I think that was what was agreed upon! At the moment I have the "PG" version which has both leaders and units nude. A second version, call it the "G" version, would only have the unit nude (forseeably). Normally I wouldn't bother with the "G" version but it's being made for release here so it fits within the whole CFC code thing. That's what I meant by two.

In another forum, Petek listed the different SMAC/X forums. In particular, there is a German forum that would appreciate Lost Eden.

Haha sure! I'm glad if people will enjoy the game. I'm not sure if you were implying translation there though -- I can't speak German!

Is that the one with the mystic ruins?

No. In the preview picture, Razor Ridge is in the centre, north of "The Confluence" which are all those tiny interconnected islands.

Are you planning to release an alpha version in this thread? We could post notices at other forums saying there is an alpha version available - I think I am registered on most forums and I suspect Petek is registered where I am not, e.g. the German forum.
...

I'll be honest and say that an alpha can be released at any time. Here's a list of what's left to do for this project:

• Finish the map (which is probably done at this stage, but we'll see as you said)
• Update help files to suit recent changes.
• Sunspots and Gold Rush random events should be renamed to something that fits the theme better.
• Technology, faction and secret project quotes need to be written and recorded. I will probably do 3 of the leaders myself, I'll probably rope some friends for the others. Still to work this one out; it's one of those "I'll do that in the holidays" things.
• Remaining artwork, including a few units, leaders, title screen, and other things like the HUD which is good but not finalised.

As you can see, most of the remaining things are chrome features at best. The game's fully playable, definitely able to be tested by people who don't mind a few placeholders.

I believe that I can rename this thread by editting the first post.

For the beta (and hopefully gold release), you can create a new thread with an appropriate title - again I would suggest including the words "Lost Eden Total Conversion Mod" because it makes searches easier and put the Lost Eden beta version in the OP, which will also have a link to this thread, which should probably be closed. When later versions are released, the OP should be edited to include the latest version. And it would probably make sense to release the beta version to the Downloads section.

I'm happy with all of that!

There is a group of players that won't be interested in getting involved until there is a final product. So the beta version should be as good as we can get it, but I expect there will be some feedback and small changes. Petek will have some ideas here. There have been very few TC. The 'poly downloads section has 4. There is SMAniaC and Lazytown, so Lost Eden will be joining a very small group.

Alright sure. Very exciting!

 

[JH24]

@ Vyeh

I've included a save from the AI game. I hope it works. It's based on the second version of the Eden map.

View attachment Deirdre of the Gaians, 2358.rar

JH24, what do you think about the landmarks? Are there enough names?

As for the Landmarks, personally I think everything is great. I really like the detail and the variety of landmarks like the seas, islands and special places (for example the Strawberry Fields), etc. I did notice that Fossil Field Ridge and Geothermal Shallows have the same name as in the original game. I'm not sure if this is intentional.


The only other (very small) thing I noticed was that the ocean around Hopscotch Island (In the middle of the map) doesn't seem to have a name.



As for the new version of the Eden map, I really like it. I could really see the new changes and I think now that every continent or island on the map provides a fun and good starting point. The additional patches on the northwestern continent are a good idea, there's a lot of fertile land there and it will slow down the players a bit. The AI seems to love this place.

 

[Kilkakon]

Sounds like we have a winner here then! I'll give it a few AI runs before I pester Petek with a final copy though.

 

[vyeh]

Yeah! Well at least I think that was what was agreed upon! At the moment I have the "PG" version which has both leaders and units nude. A second version, call it the "G" version, would only have the unit nude (forseeably). Normally I wouldn't bother with the "G" version but it's being made for release here so it fits within the whole CFC code thing. That's what I meant by two.

I'm not sure if you need to worry about both versions being released around the same time.

Haha sure! I'm glad if people will enjoy the game. I'm not sure if you were implying translation there though -- I can't speak German!

I think a lot of them are bilingual. Maybe one of them will translate the files for those who are not.

I'll be honest and say that an alpha can be released at any time. Here's a list of what's left to do for this project:

• Finish the map (which is probably done at this stage, but we'll see as you said)
• Update help files to suit recent changes.
• Sunspots and Gold Rush random events should be renamed to something that fits the theme better.
• Technology, faction and secret project quotes need to be written and recorded. I will probably do 3 of the leaders myself, I'll probably rope some friends for the others. Still to work this one out; it's one of those "I'll do that in the holidays" things.
• Remaining artwork, including a few units, leaders, title screen, and other things like the HUD which is good but not finalised.

As you can see, most of the remaining things are chrome features at best. The game's fully playable, definitely able to be tested by people who don't mind a few placeholders.

You have "G" placeholders for the leader images and icons?

I believe that I can rename this thread by editting the first post.

See if you can. I think this thread has evolved beyond its title.

@ Vyeh

I've included a save from the AI game. I hope it works. It's based on the second version of the Eden map.

Now let's see if Petek or Kilkakon have the same problem when they load the save.

The only other (very small) thing I noticed was that the ocean around Hopscotch Island (In the middle of the map) doesn't seem to have a name.

Do you have a suggestion?

As for the new version of the Eden map, I really like it.

Great!

Sounds like we have a winner here then! I'll give it a few AI runs before I pester Petek with a final copy though.

Once that ocean around Hopscotch Island is named.