LotR Modders UNITE!!!

[PCHighway]

I like your civ list , but I dislike how you call it the 'Orcs of Mordor'. I think our main idea was to have all the evil civs as one (Mordor\Mordyr), except Isengard and the Evil-Men (which you left out btw). And I don't remember anything exceptional about the Orcs of Moria, nor do I remember so many as there were in the movie. If this MOD will include the all the ages, it would be very strange giving the Orcs of Moria the UU balrog. IMHO.

Glad to see some new blood though !
Arg! Must I always be at the start of a new page?

[EDIT- I really should have said evil Orcs, and not 'all evil Civs']

 

[Noldodan]

Isengard? OOPS! This will be added immediately!

 

[PCHighway]

I was just thinking about all the Orc civs, I had thought about Moria before. I like the idea about Elves and I also like how it is very doable . Are you sure you don't think we shouldn't combine Orcs of Utummno And Orcs of Mordor? My idea was to make the warg rider a calvary for all Mordor and Isengard, what do you think?

 

[mrtn]

Originally posted by PCHighway
IMHO it should go like this.
Conscript 3 HP
Regular 4 HP
Veteran 6 HP
Elite 7 HP
Making it all the difference if you have a well trained army (barracks).

OK.

Originally posted by PCHighway
...You may think it is insane for a 100 of infantry to run at 100 archers... I think this is realistic, but I await your criticism . Remember, it is only a draft, I expect it to be changed based on your opinions.

You misunderstand me. I think it would be insane for 100 archers to rush at 100 infantry. I'm approaching this argument from the other direction; archers should be defensive, which means that spearmen get to be offensive (in an ordinary game).

I think you should give the attackers better defense, and the defenders better attack.
The difference between a swordsman with a shield and a spearman with a shield is just the weapon. It shouldn't be so important that a swordsman get 4/2/1 and a spearman 1/4/1.

What about this?
Spearman 2/4/1
Berserker 4/3/1

Pikeman 3/5/1
Swordsman 5/4/1

Armored Pikeman (Keep it in singular form) 4/6/1
Two Handed Swordsman 7/3(!)/1

Originally posted by PCHighway
Cavalry shouldn’t be as strong as infantry. Perhaps 1 less attack (with the exception of Rohan), but 3 movement with blitz? I have to think about it.

3 move + blitz sounds too powerful.

 

[Celeborn]

2 movement+blitz should be good for cavalry...

oh and by the way, Noldodan, Welcome to our little LotR thread...

rohan might instead then have the same attack as other cavalry but have the extra movement?

 

[PCHighway]

Thanks for the feedback, I like it, and I get where your going with the archers (Finally!). Should I keep the archer stats the same? I Really didn't want so high an attack (or defense) for the archers, shall we lower that by one each, and add to the Rate of Fire or bombard strength?

Cavalry:
What if I gave them -2 HP? Or would you rather I just reduce their movement to 2?

Infantry:
I get where your going now, but I couldn't help but wonder why the hell anyone would attack with a defensive (spearman) unit . Does this make it not to much of a difference for the units, a bad thing?


My typo brings up something though. Should we have a later age tech that allows for ‘armys’ (in this case MF units) to be built. It would only be one for each civs main UU or a unit they were known for. Sort of like 2 War elephants, or the Dunedain get a ‘horde’ of Beserkers. We would incorporate them right before the advance to the next main defender, so they wouldn’t be to useful, and wouldn’t be massed. They would get 1 extra attack (or defense, depending on the unit) and a significant boost in HP, and large costs.

Have you thought about the Sheild cost yet?

Good idea Celeborn (are we all on the same timezone or something ) We need to draw out the cav line first, though.

 

[Celeborn]

we're not in the same timzone but it would seem that we are at locations that alow us to be on at about the same time...

the "army" idea could work well, but then would we still have the proper civ army in as well?

 

[PCHighway]

I think that would be best. We could just call it 'beserker horde' Or something along those lines, IMHO.

 

[mrtn]

Originally posted by PCHighway
Thanks for the feedback, I like it, and I get where your going with the archers (Finally!). Should I keep the archer stats the same? I Really didn't want so high an attack (or defense) for the archers, shall we lower that by one each, and add to the Rate of Fire or bombard strength?

Nice that someone understands me
Yeah, that might be good to do.

Originally posted by PCHighway
Cavalry:
What if I gave them -2 HP? Or would you rather I just reduce their movement to 2?

Infantry:
I get where your going now, but I couldn't help but wonder why the hell anyone would attack with a defensive (spearman) unit . Does this make it not to much of a difference for the units, a bad thing?

Rather move 2. I think it's good that the attack and defense values are quite similar, this means that a swordsman attacking another swordsman sometimes win, and sometimes loose.

Originally posted by PCHighway
My typo brings up something though. Should we have a later age tech that allows for ‘armys’ (in this case MF units) to be built. It would only be one for each civs main UU or a unit they were known for. Sort of like 2 War elephants, or the Dunedain get a ‘horde’ of Beserkers. We would incorporate them right before the advance to the next main defender, so they wouldn’t be to useful, and wouldn’t be massed. They would get 1 extra attack (or defense, depending on the unit) and a significant boost in HP, and large costs.

Have you thought about the Sheild cost yet?

I think that you should use only munits or no munits, a combination gets weird.

Originally posted by PCHighway
Good idea Celeborn (are we all on the same timezone or something ) We need to draw out the cav line first, though.

My location isn't Stockholm, Minnesota or something, it's Stockholm, Sweden . So we're not on the same timezone. I'm just a night owl.

 

[PCHighway]

Damn, I thought I was on the same timezone of Lothlorien .

I sort of figured you were an insomniac mrtn, I can tell the signs from personal experience ... and the fact that there is no Stockholm\US. If we get the shield cost down, we will just have to copy this into the editor when we get to that point. To give a feeling of relation , the Civ3 spearman costs 2 shields, the warrior one and the archer 2.

Remember that ‘road\wheeled’ idea Yoda Power came up with? If he\we ever make it, we can put ‘immobile units’ in certain places, like that Giant Spider as Queen Shelob, for example.

 

[mrtn]

Originally posted by PCHighway
Damn, I thought I was on the same timezone of Lothlorien .

I sort of figured you were an insomniac mrtn, I can tell the signs from personal experience ... and the fact that there is no Stockholm\US.

There is at least eleven Stockholm in the US and Stockholm is the 39,118th most popular last name (surname) in the United States.
Didn't know that, did you?

Originally posted by PCHighway
If we get the shield cost down, we will just have to copy this into the editor when we get to that point. To give a feeling of relation , the Civ3 spearman costs 2 shields, the warrior one and the archer 2.

Remember that ‘road\wheeled’ idea Yoda Power came up with? If he\we ever make it, we can put ‘immobile units’ in certain places, like that Giant Spider as Queen Shelob, for example.

Unit cost should be decided when all the units are chosen. Do we want expensive Dwarf units? Cheap Orcs? And so on.

 

[PCHighway]

I see your point about the shield cost, and no, I had not idea about Stockholm MI. It figures though, 118th? Out of how many . And how can it be 'popular'? When did you get a choice, well, not many people change their last name anyway.

Well, you want to start on the Mordor\Isengard units? They should be relatively easy also. I'll be back with a list in a bit, we'll have to see what Noldodan thinks about the Civs again, he has some slightly different idea's. Should the Uruk Hai be only Isengard's units?

 

[PCHighway]

Defensive Infantry line-
1a. Orc Worker-Attack (Kindred) Name: Goblin Militia? I need ideas for this one.
1b. Goblin Spearman1 (embryodead) Name: Goblin Spearman
1c. Goblin Spearman2 (Kindred) Name: Orc Spearman
1d. Uruk-Hai Berserker (Kinboat) Name: Uruk Hai Spearman???

Offensive Infantry Line-
2a. Orc Warrior color conversion (embryodead) Name: Orc Warrior
2b. Black Orc (embryodead) Name: Orc Axemen??
2c. Orc Warrior (embryodead seems to have a unhealthy fascination with Goblins to our benefit) Name: Orc Swordsman
2d. Uruk-Hai Warrior (Kinboat) Name: Uruk-Hai Swordsman

Archer Line-
3a.Orc Archer color conversion (embryodead) Name: Goblin Bowman
3b. Black Orc Archer color conversion (embryodead) Name: Goblin Archer
3c. Goblin Archer (embryodead) Name: Orc Bowman
3d.Goblin Archer (embryodead) Name: Orc Archer *

‘Cavalry’ Line-**
4a. Wolf Rider (embryodead) Name: Wolf rider
4c. Warg Rider (embryodead) Name: Warg rider


*
I was thinking of using the same animation for the Orc Archer, and the Orc Bowman, but still give a bonus, i.e. reason to upgrade them, and make sure they don’t run out of a archer line, something they are famous for. Another thing about archers, I think Goblin archers are should be more offensive than the Man\Elvish ones.

**
My idea for Cavalry, was to have the Wolf Rider go through the First-to-Second age. Then it would Upgrade to the Warg rider in the third age, who will take you the rest of the game.
Note, by ‘first’ ‘second’ and ‘third’ ages I just mean the order they come in, not insinuating we should have a fourth age. Are we going to have the First age labeled ‘The Arrival of man’ or what.

I’ll work out the stats tomorrow, mrtn had a good idea to use the snotling as a scout, should we do that? Or use Kindred’s ever popular Orc Worker, run and capture animations (my choice, a snotling is sort of un-LotR-esque. )

 

[mrtn]

I think we should use the goblin worker as a worker. If we also use it as a warrior, wouldn't that be very confusing?
You forgot the Cave Troll (Kindred72)!
I propose we use that as the last defender, use the Uruk Hai Berserk as attacker, and use the Uruk Hai Warrior, as a sort of super unit, good on attack and defense and all as road. 5/5/1 maybe? I think we shouldn't only have these 'unit lines', we should have some units that are outside them.

And I think we could use the snotling renamed to Orc Scout.

My offensive line would be:
2a. Orc Warrior color conversion Name: Orc Warrior
2b. Orc Warrior Name: Orc Swordsman
2c. Black Orc (embryodead) Name: Orc Axeman This looks meaner than the swordsman.
2d. Uruk Hai Berserker Name: Uruk Hai

I seriously think we should consider slimming these lines down to only three units. This leaves some units that can be used as alternatives, for if you don't have iron, or something. And we don't have to use four diffierent archers, that actually are the same unit. And we don't have to double animations, which never is good.

 

[PCHighway]

I agree with you there, I was sort of assuming the Cave Troll would be one of those outside units we had talked about. I suppose, but by slimming it down to three units per line, which one will go over two ages? Or are you thinking of cutting down the ages (which I disagree with). I'll revise it and get back to you in a hour, hopefully with stats (got business).

 

[mrtn]

You can get the first unit in the first era, the second in the middle of the second and the third in the end of the third era, for example. I think we should only have four eras if we can fill them with relevant techs. "Empty" techs are just boring, in that case it is better to increase the tech cost.

 

[PCHighway]

Key: DEF\ATT\MOVE - HPB=Hit Point Bonus
I was thinking of giving them cheaper costs (half as much as men?) But have one less defense.
Defensive Infantry line-
1a-b.Goblin Spearman1 (embryodead) Name: Goblin Spearman
3\1\1 0HPB
If we give them the 0Bombard Range option, it may represent ‘mass & movement’. Not as good as the archers, and it would only work with more than 1 unit i.e.
IF-Bombard Strength 1 Range 0 and rate of fire 1.

1c.Goblin Spearman2 (Kindred) Name: Orc Spearman
4\2\1 +1HPB
IF-0 Bombard Range, Rate of Fire 1, Bombard strength 2.

1d. Cave Troll (Kindred) Name: Cave Troll (didn’t they turn to stone in sun?)
6\4\1 +3(?)HPB
IF- They shouldn’t have this ability, lets pass it on to the Orcs Main Offensive line in the last era.

Offensive Line-
2a. Orc Warrior color conversion Name: Orc Warrior
1\2\1 0HPB

2b. Orc Warrior Name: Orc Swordsman
2/3/1 0HPB

2c. Black Orc (embryodead) Name: Orc Axeman\ “This looks meaner than the swordsman.”
3\5\1 0HPB

2d. Uruk Hai Berserker Name: Uruk Hai
4\6\1 0HPB
IF-0 Bombard Range, Rate of Fire 1, Bombard strength 3.

Archer line-
3a.Black Orc Archer color conversion (embryodead) Name: Goblin Bowman
2\2\1 -1HPB
Bombard strength of 2\ Rate of Fire 2\ B. range of 0.

3b. Orc Archer color conversion(embryodead) Name: Orc Bowman
2\3\1 -1HPB
Bombard strength of 3\ Rate of Fire 2\ Bombard range of 0.

3c-d. Goblin Archer (embryodead) Name: Orc Archer
3\5\1 ? - 0HPB
Bombard strength of 6\ Rate of Fire 3\ Bombard range of 0.

Cavalry Line-
4a-b. Wolf Rider (embryodead) Name: Wolf rider
2\2\2 -0HPB *blitz (*wheeled?)

4c-d. Warg Rider (embryodead) Name: Warg rider
3\4\2 +1HPB *blitz (*wheeled?)


MEN
The idea with this is to make Mordor and Men start with the same cav stats in the first age, and have slightly less than the Mordor cav in 3rd era (actually second age in LotR) but Men surpass by far in the fourth era (third age in LotR). Do you agree people?

Cavalry Line-
1a-b. Horseman (civ3) Name: Horseman
2\2\2 *Blitz

1c. Cavalry (Jimmyh)??? Name: Cavalry
2\3\2 0HPB *blitz

1d. Knight? (Civ3?) Name: Knight
4\5\2 +2HPB *blitz

The Evil Men (Dunlendings\Southrons?) will have the same as the other Men Lines stats (maybe slightly less in last era), except they will use different graphics, Tarkan (Jimmyh)for cavalry replacement and Cataphract(?) (JimmyH) Name: -?-

My thoughts anyway.

 

[mrtn]

You do wrong! Everyone else writes att/def/move. Bloody non-conformist. *mumble mumble*

The stats look good. I agree about the horses. Kinboat is making an awsome-looking Cataphract which hopefully will be finished soon. We could also use the Horse Archer by Kryten. Personally I'm not that fond of the AoK conversions. And of course the Oliphaunt as a knight-replacement for the southrons.

 

[PCHighway]

mrtn-
You do wrong! Everyone else writes att/def/move. Bloody non-conformist. *mumble mumble*

The stats look good. I agree about the horses. Kinboat is making an awesome-looking Cataphract which hopefully will be finished soon. We could also use the Horse Archer by Kryten. Personally I'm not that fond of the AoK conversions. And of course the Oliphaunt as a knight-replacement for the southrons.

Hah! I don't care how well you type English! You put *mumble mumble*! It should be *grumbles incoherently* or something along those lines. And damn straight, I'm not conforming anything you crazy Socialist you*grumbles incoherently about socialists* .

I think the AoE\K conversions look great... Except the cavalry, moves to much on default, but some are acceptable. Maybe we should start discussion of UU's and 'stand alone units' (SAU ) for Mordor\Isengard and the 'man' Civs. I was thinking the Oliphaunt could be a stand alone? What graphics, the standard Civ3 ones or AoK Elephant Archer\Rider? If they are stand alone we can include both, and get rid of Cavalry except the first era one, for them. As I don’t remember the Southrons using any cav in the books, only the Dunlendings.

 

[mrtn]

Say that to my socialist friends, and they would laugh their pants off.
I don't like the Elephant archer. I don't get the point of why you would put a bow on top of a elephant. I say use the vanilla elephant.
And the Southrons get very little attention in the books, IIRC.