Low Sea Zara (Deity Isolation)

[krikav]

Nice Oracle run!
Not at comp until tonight so cannot analyze.

Why I want CoL first? To be more fair. Getting confu at t80 is aceptable. Getting it late T90s is bordering cheese territory for me.

 

[soundjata]

T130 Astro
(fog of war and AIs unspoiled)

Spoiler :

Commerce jumps from 140 to 215!

After Optics I self teched Math + Myst + Poly + Priesthood.
Traded for Alpha, Aesthetics, CoL, Currency and Monarchy, with stuff like Compass, MC and Machinery.

Optics monopoly is about to break (someone is just few away)
I can buy a map and circumnavigate this turn.

Did the double switch into HR and Caste (nice "11 cities" tip @someone) so as to starve down Lalibela for the last scientist (save 4 turns)

Resources available

We need to wait 3 turns for the next civic switch (just Bureau probably)

Diplomacy looks good. There are wars

Oromo we go

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Why I want CoL first? To be more fair. Getting confu at t80 is aceptable. Getting it late T90s is bordering cheese territory for me.

I see, thanks for answering. Confu has some value.

CarpoolKaraoke :

Spoiler :

Yes, getting Fishing first is indeed a way to get the commerce we need ! Working the fish adds up quickly. T51 is still in the safer kind of zone. It definitely speeds up all the backfilling post-Oracle.
I think it's also conceivable to insert Fishing in between Bronze and Mysticism (I almost did that, almost - but it is a delay towards The Oracle... and getting that wonder is certainly a racing situation - so I didn't do that). That would still let you settler Gondar asap, which is sort of a big deal.

Funneling barbs happens naturally if/when we fogbust the Western area, which we can do with scout + warrior. Another warrior to secure the Eastern desert tiles completes the job.
i.e. happens when we control the sides.

Aren't you playing with BUG installed ? I swear you can get gold with excess overflow.
I would almost never do it but Isolation is a special case (and so is going broke).
Oh... Maybe you need BUG+BULL. BULL has very little but extremely important features : most notably, Workers stop before chopping. They pre-chop and stop. Very convenient.

Very nice job overall, growing Aksum back to giganormous sizes

Soundjata :

Spoiler :

Your tech situation seems extremely favourable, this is boding well !

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

Aren't you playing with BUG installed ?

No, I just added the Blue Marble art pack.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Why I want CoL first? To be more fair. Getting confu at t80 is aceptable. Getting it late T90s is bordering cheese territory for me.

Cheesing... You're not mincing your words. That's harsh
Me cheesing my way at T85 :

Spoiler :

Libraries have been set up. Gondar has started working on some gpp but I'll need a Caste switch to speed up the first dude.
I can now 1 turn Agriculture, which I'll probably do. Aksum has 5 warriors and 5 unhealth.
Compass (Harbour) is the next priority tech. Requires Sailing and Iron Working.
I have a 6th worker, now, who's starting to road random tiles in the south. 1 turn into a settler in Lalibela. I'm not quite sure about the settling order, there. I think I want more health and am better set to claim fish/deer first.
Yeha has been... let's say the city is very shy and not very vocal about asking help from our workers.

Final question is when do I revolt into Caste (not now) and how do I go about my GPs ?
Academy, Philosophy bulb, Golden Age How to order that ? Maybe it's Caste, Golden Age, Philo bulb, Academy. That saves on anarchy and makes use of Aksum's gpp+high pop.

T82 is the turn

Spoiler :

CarpoolKaraoke builds his academy and I start working on scientists

 

[soundjata]

@BornInCantaloup I'd say Academy can wait. It's more of a bonus (but you got another one) than a necessity really.

Edit: Maybe Astro is not the beeline you need idk.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Yes, I agree, I think the Academy comes last. And I need to save my pop, which is a little awkward with only the 5 cities and need for settlers.

Edit: Maybe Astro is not the beeline you need idk.

Let me guess, Divine Right ?
You mean Maths/Civil Service. It's certainly worth considering but I think Astro is likely better. You showed resources trades, remember ? It's a big deal, raising caps all around. Also, I'm not working Villages, I'm working Hamlets and Cottages at the moment
Also, with a lock on Confusionism and Tao, Liberalism is close to guaranteed, so there's no need to rush it. It would be different if we had easy Universities/Oxford, because then Education would be a real draw.
I wonder if I can send a Great Merchant on a Caravel, hum... that's a thought

 

[soundjata]

I mean the way you are already turbocharging research (and GP creation through pacifism) you might end up in a position where you have to stall research because Astro bulb is not ready and you can't research Civil Service (as it breaks the Astro bulb)

But maybe i'm under-estimating the number of GP you can collect in the next ~50 turns

Edit @great merchant on a caravel, I think I did that on Monty Island. (and TOA was so close ^^)
Not on the initial caravel wave. Gold is available aplenty through trades at this point in time (and AIs are likely to casually demand 999 a few turns after contact.)
Good on a second wave, when one is in beeline steel / i don't trade mode.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

I mean the way you are already turbocharging research (and GP creation through pacifism) you might end up in a position where you have to stall research because Astro bulb is not ready and you can't research Civil Service (as it breaks the Astro bulb)

Turbocharging ? I like how you see things. Is it illegal to put research into Astronomy ? Worst case it comes to that. I agree I may have difficulties with but I wouldn't be too worried about having too much research...
I've played some more, setting up some Lighthouses, 3 settlers and now ready to research Iron Working.
T91 :

Spoiler :

I'll stop there for today, this may be the turn I revolt into Caste.
But first, T85 Aksum or why the Academy isn't a priority :

Spoiler :

Being deep into unhealth and working mines + less developped cottages. The Eastern helper holds most of the floodplains. I haven't whipped that city once and I want it to keep growing.
So, Aksum has pop and it will be getting infrastructure, but it isn't the commerce heaven you would think.
At this point, because unhealth, I even insert a 5 turns settler into Aksum's queue. I have the techs, I need to backfill.

Next, I had forgotten we had cheap Lighthouses, so it came as a surprise when I realized I could 1 turn them with overflow from Granary/Settler :

Spoiler :

A few things, here. Gondar will be happy at size 8 with 3 warriors. Addis Abeba will be happy at size 7 with 2 warriors (and a settler will be chopped).
It is, in fact, legal to stack warriors outside the capital
I have 2 workers south of Lalibela and some part roads to the south.
I've started to road south of Gondar but a barb archer is blocking my way. Maybe I'll get an axeman.

This is my updated dotmap :

Spoiler :

I initially wanted to settle pigs/copper by the coast but this claims the most forests/tiles.
Workboat is in position, so I'll settle fish/deer first, maybe hire an artist. I could use a 3rd worker in this area, spread between 2 cities. The abundance of forests will be nice to set up infra.
I believe I am barb galley free.

This is the north :

Spoiler :

I used my missionary in Aksum. That + Sailing has unlocked us some nice infrastructure to build. If we go Caste, I likely start with a Lighthouse, here. Otherwise it's a warrior.

Well, actually, I know I'm not whipping, here... So I should have gone Caste after the last whips, so I could revolt into Pacifism earlier. Hopefully it doesn't block me. That was an oversight. If you don't whip, BiC, revolt earlier

Save is attached, if you wanna have a peek.

 

[soundjata]

can't peek at these buffy protected files T_T

as a benchmark my T91 : slightly more research but less population I think.

 

[krikav]

Not every game syncs perfecly with a astro double-bulb.
Sometimes one bulb and self-teching the rest is the best option.
Sometimes libbing astro is best.
And sometimes CS makes sense and GScientists are scarse so just self-teching it outright is best.

Why we are so obsessed with bulbing astro is because astro doesn't have any pre-req, so the 3400 beakers or so you need to tech it, you need to tech in raw form, while almost every other tech in the game you have at least one pre-req, thus getting +20% bonus.

Had astro had one pre-req, we would not need 3400 raw beakers but instead only 3400/1.2 = 2833.
So in some sense you "lose" 3400-2833 = 570 beakers by self teching it.
Now.. if those 570 beakers are the cost of deviating from the standard bulbing, it's just a matter of deciding if the situation differs from the norm enough that the price is worth it.

 

[soundjata]

^ yay this is why streamlined and minimalistic approaches suit me better (less parameters to handle)

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Oooh, I had never thought about that, Krikav !

can't peek at these buffy protected files T_T

I peeked. We're indeed on very different tracks and I understand better why you mentionned turbocharging and beelining something else. Maybe you think the AIs will be to Astro before I am
I am indeed some 5 pop over you (which is considerable) and you are some 25 bpt above me (which is considerable).
You are mostly at a plateau with already developped tiles and cities at happy cap but started on tracks a lot earlier. There is definitely value in starting research earlier.
I am mostly not at a plateau and have potential for explosion but it will come later.
Your earlier Optics mean you'll then have potential for growth again, while I'll be living a lonely struggle and burning points. You could have an easier time with Renaissance bulbs/missions/GAs.

I realized Pacifism is a religious civic. When did that happen and who will lend me a missionary ?!

 

[soundjata]

Yes investments lead to more investments (warriors, missionaries)

I like that you speak of explosions. Same kind of vocabulary I employ with my son (see daddy is going to explode now and go cuir rush somebody )

The way I see CIV nowadays (regular military game):
- Be conservative early game. Weigh your options. Hammers > all.
- Have a plan, don't blow your cartridges too early (bulbs, wftyabta, ...)
- Brew your chemicals (GP, beeline, hammer enhancing trickeries)
- Explode (acquire a critical mass)
- Chill and win

Maybe its simplistic and we've been shown by strong players (@Lain to name just one) that more than one explosion is possible (1. Cuirs ; 2. Tanks for example)

Still, an ok model for me to work with and a reason why I am not really confortable these days with Oracle plays (early science explosion)
Back in the days, it was considered a hack wonder though...

 

[krikav]

Spoiler T115 :

Amazing what 15 turns of growth can do.
Sheep town is really underwhelming though, that one must be considered a mistake.

Grown to happycap, and hired merchants in cities w/o library to funnel the commerce through capitals academy.
Timing between commerce and GPeople might be off here... not used to playing to optics with 11 cities.

Confu-spread seems to have stalled... not gotten many more cities yet.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Soundjata, I would never say it is simplistic to state principles.
Principles hold weight and consequences very far down the line.

This is hell !

Spoiler :

I realized Pacifism is a religious civic. When did that happen and who will lend me a missionary ?!

Now you tell me ! How the hell was I supposed to know ?
And what about the other pre-reqs ?! F..... !!! You say Philosophy requires Maths ?! Never before I have heard that ! Never before ! And if I wanna bulb it, I need Alphabet on top ?!
Whaaat ?! This is a steal ! No way, man ! I'll give you Writing and The Wheel for the bulb, no more !


Yeah... So... Change of plans. I can afford the Academy, the Caste switch, no more.
All the Philo / Golden Age talk was dumb talk. Maybe that can happen in between Optics and Astrology. I don't know, I don't have a crystal ball for those things.

 

[konata_LS]

This is a very good thread! Always happy to see people share an interesting maps and their gameplay We need people like krikav, BiC, or soundjata who share their maps and ideas to keep this community active and flourishing . It also encourages some lurkers to step out of the silence and participate in the discussion.

Interesting Oracle gambit on Deity . But I guess getting Monarchy from oracle is quite good with so many flood plains and so few happy resources...?

It's quite rare that people have 8+ cities before Optics. But the nice land + ORG trait might justify it.

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

Spoiler T115 :

Amazing what 15 turns of growth can do.
Sheep town is really underwhelming though, that one must be considered a mistake.

Grown to happycap, and hired merchants in cities w/o library to funnel the commerce through capitals academy.
Timing between commerce and GPeople might be off here... not used to playing to optics with 11 cities.

Confu-spread seems to have stalled... not gotten many more cities yet.
View attachment 632680

That's a lot of science - an aspect of caste I didn't consider. It looks like you're not too far from Optics either - makes a person wonder how much urgency Optics has anyways.

 

[krikav]

That's a lot of science - an aspect of caste I didn't consider. It looks like you're not too far from Optics either - makes a person wonder how much urgency Optics has anyways.

I played on abit more yesterday and optics came T124. That is one turn earlier than the T125 that I got from my first run where I went cottages super early and stayed small to really streamline tech.
6 cities (or was it 7?) vs 11.
So much larger empire, much higher research potential, way better developed infrastructure. On top of that there is also accumulated GPP in multiple cities.
The slimmed variant might be first to astro, but even if it is it's likely not by much.
Me trying to dissuade @soundjata from settling more cities. Well, that was dumb of me.

The urgency toward optics is partially explained by @BornInCantaloup's experience with bulb-paths.
We rush toward optics to bulb astro faster because before we put the bulbs into astro, we can't trade for or tech CS since that would open up the bulb toward paper->Education->Printing press.
One game I foolishly thought I could trade for Theology since it seemed like a good brokering chip... But theology also opens up the paper bulb.

@konata_LS yeah! its these things that keeps this game so interesting and engaging. Even though there is alot of guidelines and rules of thumb, the map and circumstances are always unique and whats right is not clear.

 

[soundjata]

Optics Urgency:

Definitely a Trade off :
- A couple of turns earlier optics could make a huge difference in beakers obtained in trade (typically Monarchy / Code of Laws are free in my last 2 iso game)
- The alternative (non lean Optics beeline) definitely gives you a bigger population at the same date => Bigger Commerce and Production bases. => earlier war ?

Fog of War :
Earlier Optics >> earlier information on the map composition >> plan the next move

And the next move Oh my!
There are so many possibilities

I'll be gone on an different island for the next few days.
Let's meet @T130

 

[krikav]

@BornInCantaloup I spoke about going confu late with map knowledge might be abit cheesy... Well. I feel my game is starting to show absurd levels of cheesyness now.
Why oh why can't my games look at least more similar to this the first time through a map?

Spoiler T130 :

Preparation for caravel.

Maybe I could have reached optics one turn earlier if I ran more scientists? Discovered optics with 117 gold in the treasury.

After optics, I did some teching (finished mason+mono, had the idea to swap to slavery+OR right away to spread the religion more, but autospread has already taken care of most cities. And I didn't realize I needed to stay in caste to get the second scientist.
But with 0% slider, academy still got some use when running scientists here.
Only starved down one pop.

You get 1500+ 3*total_pop beakers for a bulb, so with this larger empire, no beakers into astro was needed.

Grew cities above happycap prior to astro bulb since goodies will be waiting.

Hatty gave the rest of CS (had about 500 beakers into it) for optics. Only 2 more cities where lacking confu and cities are already large so slavery isn't that nice I think. Revolt to Bur+OR.

Next turn.
Qohaito getting out a GPerson in 9 turns, should perhaps prepare a glorious golden age for that?
Got feud in trade for machinery+compass with hatty earlier, so going straight for steel is also possible. That will give the most time to build Oromos.

Every worker I have is in the south-east farming CS-chains, so the ivory/dye will continue to be in jungle, and capital will continue to enjoy it's iron cottage.

Trading for aestethics and theology with Hammy and Mansa is possible. Aestethics is probably not worth it, but will want to have drama eventually.
Theology will speed up paper and will be usefull eventually.

Hatty has Philo.. Only one I think. And she is getting attacked by both Mehmed and Monty. Gave her 10+10+10+10g until I reached pleased and begged her for 1 gold to avoid having Mehmed+Monty ask me to kill her and upset them by declining.
If Hatty asks me to join in on Monty, thats probably OK he is backwards and hated by everyone, but I don't want to go against Mehmed I think.
Mansa is a runaway candidate.