ls612's C2C Units

[ls612]

I opened it up and only see a Camel Biplane under the G8 folder.

Oops, I thought that the g8 stood for something else. Nevermind then, I'll just use the Dune Wars ornithopter.

 

[Hydromancerx]

2. Oh, that is intended atm. I didn't make any changes to the promotions, as I wanted to wait and see if we got any nonrepeatable crashes from the units. I can change the promotions and see what that does. Do you have any other ideas for balance changes?

Ok now that I have thought it over I think that giving workers combat is much too over powered. If you want to guard your units you should have to attach a combat unit to the worker and have it escort them around. This method accomplishes the same thing as a combat worker but makes you have to actually work a little to protect those workers.

In short I feel that the combat workers line of units should be removed. I know strategyonly feels similar about this.

 

[ls612]

@Hydro: Yay, your Tank works! The xbowman has some issues though

On the issue of Combat Workers, two things.

1. Did you notice that there is an iextracost modifier on the new Combat Workers? I added that as a balance counterweight.

2. I also plan to make the Combat Workers have a bonus building Forts and Roads, and a penalty building other things, of 25%. The tags for that need to be made however, so I may ask on the Tag Requests thread for that.

In short, could we please wait until everything is completely implemented here before just axing it?

 

[Hydromancerx]

0. OMG!!! That's great news!! That means I can make some more custom units!

1. Yes I noticed, and in general workers cost a lot more than combat units anyways, but its not the cost that is unbalanced its the fact they can both make improvements AND fight.

2. Well I was thinking if it was possible to make building that gave normal workers faster bonus to different stuff like forts or roads. Or just giving special worker units those promotions. Note it would be good candidates for Wonders or Culture units.

3. I did not want you to get too far into stuff just to have to axe the stuff. note not all stuff in C2C works. We had to scrap the % gold Civic, I had to redo all the "goods" I made, DH has had to redo some of the terrain features to resources, plus a bunch more stuff that just did not work out. I know it may seem as we accept just about everything, but some things we do try, test and then remove (or chnage).

I hope your not too upset since it did take time and effort to make. I just strongly believe that workers should not be giving the ability to fight. its The one thing that they and other non-combat units like merchants and settlers have that make them venerable and thus worth protecting when they move around.

EDIT: How about this. We could save it for a Culture Unit. i would also like to bring back the Fast Worker for some civ in the India region. That way it would not be over powered if limited to 15 units.

 

[ls612]

0. OMG!!! That's great news!! That means I can make some more custom units!

1. Yes I noticed, and in general workers cost a lot more than combat units anyways, but its not the cost that is unbalanced its the fact they can both make improvements AND fight.

2. Well I was thinking if it was possible to make building that gave normal workers faster bonus to different stuff like forts or roads. Or just giving special worker units those promotions. Note it would be good candidates for Wonders or Culture units.

3. I did not want you to get too far into stuff just to have to axe the stuff. note not all stuff in C2C works. We had to scrap the % gold Civic, I had to redo all the "goods" I made, DH has had to redo some of the terrain features to resources, plus a bunch more stuff that just did not work out. I know it may seem as we accept just about everything, but some things we do try, test and then remove (or chnage).

I hope your not too upset since it did take time and effort to make. I just strongly believe that workers should not be giving the ability to fight. its The one thing that they and other non-combat units like merchants and settlers have that make them venerable and thus worth protecting when they move around.

Oh well, I actually figured they might be underpowered! I had reduced their work rate to be about 2/3 of their 'normal' counterpart, and also had their strength lower. I will remove it, but I still think it is workable.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@ls612

Here is a culture unit...

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Menalamba
Graphic: (See Attachment) [Taken from CivGold mod]
Icon: ?
Type: Archery
Strength: 6
Movement: 1
Cost: 50
Req Tech: Siege Warfare
Req Resource: Merina AND (Copper OR Iron)
Upgrades To: Musketman
Special Abilities

• 25% vs Wild Animals
• 25% vs Mounted
• 50% vs Archery
• Can Perform Ranged Attacks
• Accuracy 15
• Starts with Hillsman, Guerrilla I

Notes: Use Early Skirmisher as a Base.

-----

Also the Early Skirmisher should not be a national unit. It should not have a limited amount of units.

Thanks in advance!

 

[ls612]

@Hydro: Removing the new Combat Workers caused some XML errors which I don't have the time to fix, so I'm going to put them back on the SVN for now. Sorry about that.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@ls612

Here are some more culture units ...

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Swazi Tracker
Graphic: Here
Icon: ?
Type: Hunter
Strength: 10
Movement: 2
Cost: 80
Req Tech: Iron Working
Req Resource: Swazi
Upgrades To: Game Hunter
Special Abilities

• -20% City Attack
• +325% vs Wild Animals
• +50% Savanna Attack
• +50% Savanna Defense
• Starts with Hunting Sight, Hunting Sight II

Notes: Use Ranger as a Base.

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Uighur Knight
Graphic: Here
Icon: ?
Type: Mounted
Strength: 11
Movement: 2
Cost: 90
Req Tech: Armored Calvary
Req Resource: Uighur AND Iron
Req Building: Horse Trainer
Upgrades To: Cuirassier
Special Abilities

• Immune to First Chance Strikes
• Doesn't Receive Defense Bonuses
• +25% Grassland Attack
• +25% Plains Attack
• +25% Desert Attack
• -25% Jungle Attack
• -25% Forest Attack
• -25% Swamp Attack
• Flank Attack vs Catapult and Trebuchet
• Starts with Commando, Sentry I, March

Notes: Use Knight as a Base.

-----

Thanks in advance!

 

[Hydromancerx]

@ls612

The Drache Helicopter is missing its helicopter blades texture. Can you try to find them or replace them with another helicopter's blade texture?

 

[Thunderbrd]

I'm going to chime in on the warrior workers. I think at this point, what I said earlier about them simply being too strong is now worthy of merit as others are beginning to agree. I think we could get away with including all your hard work and innovation you've applied so far by doing the following:

1) set the worker ai to the same as the standard worker. It should thus mean they should act exactly as workers normally do.

2) Gatherers should be given 1 str but a free promo "Non-Combatant" that gives it -50% str. (I believe this should also be done for Bands and Tribes and Slaves.) This is so they aren't vulnerable to 'harmless' animals but are vulnerable to pretty much everything else, even if they won't go down without a slight fight.

3) Workers and Settlers should be given 1 Str. This means on the right terrain they are somewhat capable of defending themselves.

4) Step up by 1 pt for each unit upgrade from there.

At this point, workers CAN get fairly good at defending themselves (but never really up to snuff against a real military unit) or even better at working if they are lucky enough (though working itself should give some xp so they can access those special worker promotions.

We can create a line of POOR workers (slower work speeds) that are much better at fighting (combat engineers) for those frontline work projects but for now, keep them under the same AI until we can tell them to prioritorize their work efforts in more dangerous areas (but not TOO dangerous) just behind the front, or among the military stacks they accompany.

I think, all in all, this would make the whole system, animals included, work a bit more realistically.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@ls612

Here is an Autogyro I merged the Fokker Biplane body (mines some wings) with the blades of the autogyro that dacubz145 made. Let me know if it works. Use the Gunship Helicopter for animations. The stats and button should already be posted here.

 

[SargontheGreat2]

Hydro, I might ask? How in the World do you find these models

 

[ls612]

I'm going to chime in on the warrior workers. I think at this point, what I said earlier about them simply being too strong is now worthy of merit as others are beginning to agree. I think we could get away with including all your hard work and innovation you've applied so far by doing the following:

1) set the worker ai to the same as the standard worker. It should thus mean they should act exactly as workers normally do.

2) Gatherers should be given 1 str but a free promo "Non-Combatant" that gives it -50% str. (I believe this should also be done for Bands and Tribes and Slaves.) This is so they aren't vulnerable to 'harmless' animals but are vulnerable to pretty much everything else, even if they won't go down without a slight fight.

3) Workers and Settlers should be given 1 Str. This means on the right terrain they are somewhat capable of defending themselves.

4) Step up by 1 pt for each unit upgrade from there.

At this point, workers CAN get fairly good at defending themselves (but never really up to snuff against a real military unit) or even better at working if they are lucky enough (though working itself should give some xp so they can access those special worker promotions.

We can create a line of POOR workers (slower work speeds) that are much better at fighting (combat engineers) for those frontline work projects but for now, keep them under the same AI until we can tell them to prioritorize their work efforts in more dangerous areas (but not TOO dangerous) just behind the front, or among the military stacks they accompany.

I think, all in all, this would make the whole system, animals included, work a bit more realistically.

I think this is about what I'm doing at the moment. Here is a quick summary of how it is now.

1. "Old" workers have a combat strength about 1/3 to 1/5 of other actual military units right now. This means they can fend off the odd sparrow or injured unit, but still get destroyed by units that can really fight. The primary issue with them is that the AI has issues escorting them according to Koshling, but that is something beyond my control. Do you think that they should be even weaker than that already low number?

2. The new combat workers have about 2/3 the work rate of their normal counterparts. They are probably unbalanced right now as I do not have a tag to make the work rate changes I want to for specific improvements. However, once that is available, I could make my final balance of them. Would you be willing to make such a tag?

3. The worker AIs have not been changed

So, to balance things for now I think I'll make them national units (limit 15). Once the tag to affect work rate on specific improvements is made, I'll make the combat workers have 1/2 work rate, and +150% work on Forts and route improvements. Does this sound reasonable?

 

[Hydromancerx]

Hydro, I might ask? How in the World do you find these models

Which ones?

Most come from the download section under units. Some are in other mods such as RI or WoL. A few I have custom made and most of the animals have been converted from Zoo Tycoon 2.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I think this is about what I'm doing at the moment. Here is a quick summary of how it is now.

1. "Old" workers have a combat strength about 1/3 to 1/5 of other actual military units right now. This means they can fend off the odd sparrow or injured unit, but still get destroyed by units that can really fight. The primary issue with them is that the AI has issues escorting them according to Koshling, but that is something beyond my control. Do you think that they should be even weaker than that already low number?

2. The new combat workers have about 2/3 the work rate of their normal counterparts. They are probably unbalanced right now as I do not have a tag to make the work rate changes I want to for specific improvements. However, once that is available, I could make my final balance of them. Would you be willing to make such a tag?

3. The worker AIs have not been changed

So, to balance things for now I think I'll make them national units (limit 15). Once the tag to affect work rate on specific improvements is made, I'll make the combat workers have 1/2 work rate, and +150% work on Forts and route improvements. Does this sound reasonable?

1) Bare minimum should be the rule of thumb on that I think. The only reason they'd gain any strength at all from upgrades is that they may have some small arms on them like a farmer might have a pistol on hand for coyotes, that sort of thing. So keep them at the lowest possible str, like 1 + 1 per upgrade at best. I'm thinking settlers could be justified to have a bit more but still not much.

2)About half seems right, though I like the idea of making them better with roads and forts, though probably no faster than a standard worker would be.

As for the tags you requested, I could take a look this weekend and see if I can work out the worker rate coding enough to fit those in. As stated previously, making tags is easy... its the programming that makes them work that can be challenging. I'm not sure how hard or easy the task of making workrate dependant on the work mission would be yet. Obviously simply manipulating the rate itself would be straightforward but conditionally could be tough. I'll take a look and see for you.

3) Interesting point on the AI's feelings regarding sending accompaniments. I'm NOT very good at understanding the ai unit command coding... my understandings there are rudimentary which is why prophets just spawn and plant religions in the capitals only right now. I could look at that down the line but I promise the other guys are way better at that sort of thing right now

Anyhow, I'll take a look for you soon k?

 

[SargontheGreat2]

Ok, just, the unis section is a mess

 

[ls612]

@Hydro: Could you please make me some buttons for the three new Culture Units? Thanks in advance.

@Thunderbrd: Thanks man for looking at making those tags, I think that when I can get my final implementation of the Combat Workers in that people will generally think that they are balanced. I think that the current workers have low enough strength for now, they have 1/4 to 1/5 the strength of comparable combat units for their era, which means they can only really win against heavily injured units, which makes sense from a realism point of view.

 

[ls612]

OK, so Koshling pointed out some serious AI issues with the Combat Workers, so I have removed it all for now, until after V24 when he can make the AI address the workers properly. Thunderbrd, you don't need to look at those new tags I asked for quite yet.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Hydro: Could you please make me some buttons for the three new Culture Units? Thanks in advance.

Here ya go.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@ls612

Some problems ...

1. Repeating Crossbowman has a pink button.

2. Menalamba has the Early Skirmisher button instead of the new one I sent you.

3. The Swazi Tracker has the Ranger button instead of the new one I sent you.

4. The Uiguhur Knight has the Knight button instead of the new one I sent you.