ls612's C2C Units

@ls612

Well while intlidave is doing his things there are some other ship stuff we can do.

1. As per DH's request make sure all Wooden ships have a production boost from Prime Timber and Hemp.

2. Also as per DH's request, please make the following units National Units and have a limit of 15 5.

- Dragon Ship Pirate
- Barbary Corsair
- Privateer
- Torpedo Boat
- Assault Ship

@Vokarya

1. The UBoat (35) and Submarine (35) come at the same tech but one upgrades to the other. Where should one be moved to?

2. The Liberty Merchant (17) and Cargo Ship Merchant (25) come at the same tech but one upgrades to the other. Where should one be moved to?
 
Hydromancerx said:
@Vokarya

1. The UBoat (35) and Submarine (35) come at the same tech but one upgrades to the other. Where should one be moved to?
Click to expand...

Keep them both because they serve different purposes. The U-Boat is for attacking enemy merchant ships. The Submarine is for attacking enemy warships and especially invading transports (as it targets them first and flanks them). I would have the U-Boat change to upgrade to the Attack Submarine instead of the Submarine.

Hydromancerx said:
2. The Liberty Merchant (17) and Cargo Ship Merchant (25) come at the same tech but one upgrades to the other. Where should one be moved to?
Click to expand...

I'd move the Cargo Ship Merchant to Conglomerates (Globalization would also work, but I'd prefer a little more space between the two). Coast Guard is now before Submarine Warfare, so I would put the Liberty Merchant at Coast Guard, put the Cargo Ship Merchant at Conglomerates just to keep some space between the two, and then change Liberty Merchant's ForceObsoleteTech to Conglomerates.
 
@ls612

Ok based on Vokarya's feedback please chnage the following as well.

U-Boat
Upgrades to: Assault Ship OR Attack Submarine

Cog Merchant
Force Obsolete At: Optics

Carrack Merchant
Force Obsolete At: Chemistry

Clipper Merchant
Force Obsolete At: Submarine Warfare

Liberty Merchant
Force Obsolete At: Conglomerates

Cargo Ship Merchant
Req Tech: Conglomerates

Thanks in advance! :goodjob:

@Vokarya

UBoat (35) upgrades to Assault Ship (55) come at the same tech but one upgrades to the other. Where should one be moved to?

Should it not upgrade at all? Right now its ....

Torpedo Boat (40) -> UBoat (35) -> Assault Ship (55)

OR

Torpedo Boat (40) -> UBoat (35) -> Attack Submarine (54) [Was Submarine (35)]

Should the Torpedo Boat and Assault Ship be on their own Pirate upgrade line?

Pirate Line
Dragon Ship Pirate -> Barbary Corsair -> Privateer -> Torpedo Boat -> Assault Ship

And then the Submarine Line ...

Nautilus -> Attack Submarine -> Nuclear Submarine -> Fusion Submarine
UBoat -> Attack Submarine -> Nuclear Submarine -> Fusion Submarine
Submarine -> Attack Submarine -> Nuclear Submarine -> Fusion Submarine
Stealth Submarine -> Fusion Submarine

Or is there a better more linear way to do it?
 
ls612 said:
No, there is a SPECIALUNIT_SEAPLANE which means that this unit can be launched from early Destroyers and Battleships. That is a rather nice and realistic feature, so I would like to leave it that way.
Click to expand...

That is not accurate. Battleships used seaplanes, but those were small, usually unarmed, and short ranged. Their purpose was to spot for Battleship's guns and they became obsolete with radar.
There were armed seaplanes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakajima_A6M2-N), but those were too large and too heavy for Battleship catapults.

The bigger seaplanes could be serviced by specialized tender ships though.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seaplane_carrier
 
Hydromancerx said:
@Vokarya[/B]

UBoat (35) upgrades to Assault Ship (55) come at the same tech but one upgrades to the other. Where should one be moved to?

Should it not upgrade at all? Right now its ....

Torpedo Boat (40) -> UBoat (35) -> Assault Ship (55)

OR

Torpedo Boat (40) -> UBoat (35) -> Attack Submarine (54) [Was Submarine (35)]

Should the Torpedo Boat and Assault Ship be on their own Pirate upgrade line?

Pirate Line
Dragon Ship Pirate -> Barbary Corsair -> Privateer -> Torpedo Boat -> Assault Ship

And then the Submarine Line ...

Nautilus -> Attack Submarine -> Nuclear Submarine -> Fusion Submarine
UBoat -> Attack Submarine -> Nuclear Submarine -> Fusion Submarine
Submarine -> Attack Submarine -> Nuclear Submarine -> Fusion Submarine
Stealth Submarine -> Fusion Submarine

Or is there a better more linear way to do it?
Click to expand...

I don't think the beginning of the Sub line is bad. You have Submarine as a regular sub, U-Boat as a commerce raider, and Nautilus as a specialized alt-tech unit, before you get to the really powerful Attack Sub. Nuclear Sub should probably upgrade to Stealth Sub before upgrading to Fusion Sub; I think by the time you can build Stealth Sub, you wouldn't want to build Nuclear Sub, so get it off the build list. If you do that, increase Stealth Sub's cargo capacity to 5 (or drop Nuclear Sub to 3) so you do not lose anything by upgrading.

Torpedo Boat should not be a Pirate ship at all. It's a regular warship with anti-capital-ship bonuses, not a pirate; it doesn't have Hidden Nationality and doesn't have any of the "loot" abilities of the other pirate ships. So it should be part of the main warship line. I don't think it needs to upgrade from anything, and it should upgrade to the second Destroyer -- the Strength 62, Diesel Ship class destroyer. By that point, it's outclassed.

So the Pirate Line winds up as:
Dragon Ship -> Barbary Corsair -> Privateer -> (U-Boat, Assault Ship)

It looks like the Assault Ship is supposed to be a German S-Boot, so it should come at the same tech. I'd make the Assault Ship Strength 45, remove the U-Boat upgrade to Assault Ship option, and add Privateer upgrades to U-Boat or Assault Ship. The player can then choose between Str-35 U-Boats that are invisible except to sub-hunters or Str-45 Assault Ships that are visible. You can tweak the numbers depending on what you want the Assault Ship to be capable of taking on. If you can find graphics, you could then have Modern-Era upgrades to the Assault Ship.

Another note: Were you going to give the Privateer the loot abilities of the Dragon Ship? I think it should have them so it matches the others.
 
My suggestion was 5 (not 15) at the nation limit on pirate ships ie just like the hunter and sniper lines are 5. If you have 15 you may as well have no limit on Huge and smaller maps.
 
@Vokarya

Yes I would like all the Pirate line to be similar in stats for uniformity. I think the pirate line should be separate from the other ships. So Privateer to only the Assault Ship. I can draw up some more modern pirate ships later.

@ls612

Arg. Ok sorry some tweaks based on feedback.

1. Make please make the following units National Units and have a limit of 5 (not 15)

- Dragon Ship Pirate
- Barbary Corsair
- Privateer
- Assault Ship

2. U-Boat Upgrades to Attack Submarine (not Assault Ship).

3. Privateer upgrades to only the Assault Ship.

4. Torpedo Boat upgrades into Modern Destroyer.

Thanks again. Sory for the confusion.
 
@ls612

I found it! It always bugged me that the Canoe graphic had an empty canoe. I finally found a mod that had the canoe with people in it. Please grab the canoe graphic from the Multiverse mod. And then replace our empty canoe with one with people in it.

Thanks!

attachment.php
 
On that note, Hydro, perhaps we can use both... does it ever seem a bit strange that we show a kayak for a regular canoe? Maybe the Kayak should be an early water based exploration unit - faster speed, terrible strength against real boats but can at least hold its own as well as a regular canoe against animals (and can't carry any other passengers...)?
 
@Thunderbrd

Well the Tomol would still use it with a reddish reskin. However I would like to combine the re-skin with this new Canoe model so the Tomol can have people inside too.

I actually found a better unit for the War Canoe too in the Realism Inviticus mod. The icon/button for it is our first Work Boat so we would need a new icon/button for that.

attachment.php


I would not mind us updating our War Canoe into this and having the old Kayak graphic become its own new unit. Perhaps something like ...

-----

Canoe
Graphic: Multiverse Canoe
Icon: C2C Canoe
Type: Wooden Ship
Req Tech: Boat Building
Req Building: Canoe Builder
Strength: 2
Movement: 1
Cost: 10
Upgrades From: Raft
Upgrades To: Galley

  • National Unit (5 Allowed)
  • Cargo Space 2
  • Cannot Enter Polar Ocean, Ocean, Tropical Ocean
  • This Unit is Tradable

Notes: Increased Cargo Space and removed Animal Bonus. As well as the new graphic.

-----

War Canoe
Graphic: Realism Inviticus War Canoe
Icon: ?
Type: Wooden Ship
Req Tech: Haprooning
Req Building: Canoe Builder
Strength: 3
Movement: 1
Cost: 10
Req Building: Canoe Builder
Upgrades From: Raft
Upgrades To: War Galley

  • National Unit (5 Allowed)
  • Cargo Space 1
  • Cannot Enter Polar Ocean, Ocean, Tropical Ocean
  • This Unit is Tradable
  • 50% vs Wild Animals

Notes: Less of a bonus to wild animals and a new graphic.

-----

Kayak NEW!
Graphic: C2C War Canoe
Icon: C2C War Canoe
Type: Wooden Ship
Req Tech: Boat Building
Req Building: Canoe Builder
Strength: 1
Movement: 3
Cost: 10
Upgrades From: -
Upgrades To: Caravel (For now)

  • National Unit (5 Allowed)
  • Cargo Space 0
  • Cannot Enter Polar Ocean, Ocean, Tropical Ocean
  • This Unit is Tradable
  • 100% vs Wild Animals
  • Can Explore Rival Territory
  • Better Results from Tribal Villages

Notes: An Exploratory unit that works similar to a Caravel. I would like to make a primitive sailing unit between this and the Caravel too. I was going to make it on the Pirate line but it fit better as a scouting unit.

-----

Also to compensate for increase Cargo Space ...

* = Culture Unit

Raft = 1
Canoe = 2
Tomol* = 3
Galley = 3
Cog = 4
Fluyt = 5
Galleon = 6
East Indiaman* = 7
Paddle Steamer = 7
Transport = 8
Landing Ship Tank = 9
Fusion Transport = 10
 
@ls612

Can you make the changes above plus use the Unit Category icon from Realism Inviticus' Sailing Ship category for our Wooden Ship Category? Currently all ships in C2C share the same icon/button. This would help in giving them a unique icon/button.

Thanks! I know its a lot of requests lately. let me know if its too much for you.
 
Cool Kayak proposal! I'd add improved results from tribal villages to that too though.

And the whole system seems to fit pretty well too except that it seems to be a lot of units that can fit on the canoe... how about limiting it to one, and giving the raft only the ability to load the small units like hunters and scouts?
 
Thunderbrd said:
Cool Kayak proposal! I'd add improved results from tribal villages to that too though.
Click to expand...

Good idea. Added to the proposal.

Thunderbrd said:
And the whole system seems to fit pretty well too except that it seems to be a lot of units that can fit on the canoe... how about limiting it to one, and giving the raft only the ability to load the small units like hunters and scouts?
Click to expand...

Well in the graphic it shows 2 people. Seems like it could hold 2 people. Also increasing the number for the rest makes Fusion Transport come out to a nice 10 cargo space.
 
I am pretty sure those units are ALREADY in C2C someplace, pls do NOT add them, unless you know positively they are NOT in C2C, again i believe they are though. (Under different names of course)
 
Faustmouse said:
That brings me to a question: is it possible that tanks and siegeweapons take 2 spaces in a cargo?
Click to expand...

And elephants. Not a bad idea but I don't think the code accounts for that at the moment. Should do that setup at some point though... I've often thought the same in play.
 
@Faustmouse while any unit can have cargo space the AI is only about cargo space across water. The AI players wont use cargo space on land units. This has been tried and rediscovered many many times.
 
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