Lying-flatism

[choxorn]

I suspect another element is people not giving up on relationships but giving up on and/or delaying commitment/marriage/having children.
If your employer is pressurising you to work long hours, not take holidays or sick days, you can't afford to buy a flat/house and childcare is expensive the traditional get married, buy a house, start a family route that previous generations went down doesn't look very viable.

Well yeah that's part of it, and also there's how in recent times we've seen the disappearance of a lot of what are known as "third places", social gathering spots away from your home or your work (think like, a park, or a library, or a community center, or a church, or anywhere you could just go to hang out and meet people)- or at least, we don't have very many places like that where you can socially gather without spending money, and depending on your age and race, hanging out in a place that is free like a park might get you negative attention from the cops. And that's not even getting into how a lot of our infrastructure is really unfriendly to anyone who doesn't have a car.

TL;DR version: We've made it so it's a lot harder to meet new people IRL and we've made it so nobody really has time or money for anything after work, so unsurprisingly lots of people just say "screw it, I'm binge-watching Netflix and playing Civilization all weekend" because that's all they have the energy to do.

 

[Theov]

The average homeowner age in the UK is something like the mid-to-late 30s now (last I checked). My wife and I are 34 and have given up all hope of seeing a house in the near-to-medium future (didn't help that one of our cats just cost us several thousand pounds, but what are ya gonna do).

We put off both getting married and having kids, eventually chose one, and then a few years later was able to do the other (it was a small wedding though, literally just us and our young son). And while we waited to have kids, a lot of my friends and people in the same age range as me have been waiting even longer. Most are only starting to have kids now, and that includes the well-off folks that have been in finance for a decade or so.

What is making the house prices so high and the net salaries so low in the UK?

 

[Gorbles]

What is making the house prices so high and the net salaries so low in the UK?

In one word, while trying to avoid a derail? Capitalism!

 

[Narz]

Anyway tl;dr life is for living, and excessively ambitious people should consider therapy

Excessively ambitious people make you & others in the surrendertown camp their b**** as it has been for all of human history.

Ironically "going to therapy" involves taking advice from someone who's ambitious (gotten multiple degrees thus by definition ambitious) so they're not gonna be able to relate to you.

If you don't go for yours you don't deserve anything & people will take what little you have. With no ambitions what's the point of being alive. I guess that's ok if you're elderly or disabled & you know others will take care of you although even then having some goals self efficacy will extend your life & well being.

 

[Narz]

I work REALLY HARD to anticipate where your online viewing is going, and I get up PRETTY EARLY IN THE MORNING to post threads that might correspond to that online viewing. Not like this younger generation of "lying-flatters."

Anyway, the movement seems

Anti-careerist
Anti-materialist
Anti-consumerist
Against letting society dictate what's going to count as success for you.

And further seems to be a way of positively calling out the premises of capitalism. All to the good.

I wish the lying-flatters all the success in the world. Or whatever.

I'm all for dictating one's own terms in life & not climbing some ladder you don't even want to climb but being unambitious & avoiding social, economic & romantic risks cause whats-even-the-point-man is a pathetic way to life & you're gonna just get dominated & have to play the game anyway (unless you're disabled or have a family willing to shoulder the burden of you).

This movement sounds like a tiny step up from the hikikomori movement (is that still a thing?)

 

[Narz]

No love? No romance? Relationships are all about hard work. The longer the relationship, the harder the work.

Relationships are NOT all about hard work. If you have to work & struggle to get along w someone you need someone better.

I even suspect, one of the reason not the sole reason that give birth to this new phenomenon is the redpill movement, they are convinced by it but instead to participate to the rat-race they are instead reacted with "Well screw all of these then, I don't need woman as well, I'm content with who I am and I don't need them to make myself happy, how about that?", their confidence is destroyed, but they deny and reject the desire to coupling as a way to cope/accept the situation.

This lying-flat seems to have alot in common w the red-pill people. "I don't want to play the game" basically. Except @ least red-pill folks are into self-improvement & aren't trying to weed themselves out of the gene-pool by giving up on the opposite sex entirely (however misguided their ideas might be).

I'm shocked that so many people who have racked up tens of thousands of posts on a computer game forum would strongly identify with a slacker way of life.

Cause procrastinating things you should be doing to post random opinions on the internet is so taxing? Posting on the internet as opposed to doing real stuff fits pretty well into slackerism to me.

 

[Senethro]

I'm all for dictating one's own terms in life & not climbing some ladder you don't even want to climb but being unambitious & avoiding social, economic & romantic risks cause whats-even-the-point-man is a pathetic way to life & you're gonna just get dominated & have to play the game anyway (unless you're disabled or have a family willing to shoulder the burden of you).

This movement sounds like a tiny step up from the hikikomori movement (is that still a thing?)

The people determined to eat your lunch as well as their own are the people degrading the planet's support capability.

Laying flat are closer to living within their means in terms of resources consumed, rather than whats in their bank account.

 

[Akka]

What is making the house prices so high and the net salaries so low in the UK?

It's certainly absolutely not limited to the UK, it's West-wide and probably world-wide. It's a common acrid joke to compare the price of housing in the 60-70 to now and end up having eyes popping up from their socket.

My personal experience about this :
My parent's house cost them one third of what mine cost me (taking count of inflation) while being bigger, twice closer to a big city and in the flatlands.
My father bought two flats when I was a teenager. We have been able to sell them last year, and my share of the sale (one third) was equal to their buying cost at the time.

 

[Gorbles]

Except @ least red-pill folks are into self-improvement

Hating women isn't self-improvement. It's externalising blame.

 

[H4run]

This lying-flat seems to have alot in common w the red-pill people. "I don't want to play the game" basically. Except @ least red-pill folks are into self-improvement & aren't trying to weed themselves out of the gene-pool by giving up on the opposite sex entirely (however misguided their ideas might be).

It's a variation of incel I guess but with less anger and more withdrawal and giving up (hence it has its hikikomori sprinkle in it), it reacted in a way that it withdraw from the pressure instead of being vengeful toward it, while Redpill derived from the similar stupid generalization and went, "Alright then women, if you want a chad and a bad boy I will accept the condition, I'll man-up become an absolute chad, when that moment come I'll make you bent on your knees and worship me" which everything is rooted from a concept of rejection but with difference reaction toward it. Ok, why rejection? because in all of those variation of perspective they shared one thing in common: the women reject to accept the man as himself, but only accept him for what he has, achieve, he wear or he owned. So it leave the same spiteful and bitter taste.

But you are right in a way that it's at least still maintain its drive and purpose, but we can't also deny that it has its own bitterness as well. I don't believe there's an ultimate altruistic motive in a relationship, but the perks that we look at out partner and also our partner look on us, are also varied not one dimensional, it's going to be quite wrong to tell that all men just after physical beauty, as it's quite degrading to say that all women just basically a gold digger that look for the best host to settle, all sounds equally dumb.

 

[Arwon]

enjoying a tour of the brain cathedrals in this thread

 

[Narz]

The people determined to eat your lunch as well as their own are the people degrading the planet's support capability.

Laying flat are closer to living within their means in terms of resources consumed, rather than whats in their bank account.

Maybe some people come @ it from an eco-perspective, that's cool. I support the voluntarily childless & if you can't be arsed to deal with women (or men) in the dating realm you do you (better to sort yourself out before trying to get your needs met by another).

But to quote the high-brow comedy Idiocracy :

• Pvt. Joe Bowers : Why me? Every time Metsler says, "Lead, follow, or get out of the way," I get out of the way.
  Sgt. Keller : Yeah, when he says that, you're not supposed to choose "get out of the way." It's supposed to embarrass you into leading - or at least following.
  Pvt. Joe Bowers : That doesn't embarrass me.

This lying-flat business also reminds me of the quote : “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”

Society is hard & rigged against us but being a surrender monkey not only does a disserve to ourselves but to all the rest of humanity.

As I said no one should have kids if they don't want to but one good thing about having kids is you can't fall into these types of emo movements w a clear conscience because a responsibility to your kids includes a responsibility to molding the future of the society they grow up in (however small an influence you might think you have). But @ any age & in any circumstances lying-flat is some b**** s*** there's simply no two ways about it.

Hating women isn't self-improvement. It's externalising blame.

I agree.

I think the whole red-pill thing is reactionary & ultimately self-destructive. That said it's not always realized by those who get into it.

 

[Senethro]

Maybe some people come @ it from an eco-perspective, that's cool. I support the voluntarily childless & if you can't be arsed to deal with women (or men) in the dating realm you do you (better to sort yourself out before trying to get your needs met by another).

But to quote the high-brow comedy Idiocracy :

• Pvt. Joe Bowers : Why me? Every time Metsler says, "Lead, follow, or get out of the way," I get out of the way.
  Sgt. Keller : Yeah, when he says that, you're not supposed to choose "get out of the way." It's supposed to embarrass you into leading - or at least following.
  Pvt. Joe Bowers : That doesn't embarrass me.

This lying-flat business also reminds me of the quote : “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”

Society is hard & rigged against us but being a surrender monkey not only does a disserve to ourselves but to all the rest of humanity.

As I said no one should have kids if they don't want to but one good thing about having kids is you can't fall into these types of emo movements w a clear conscience because a responsibility to your kids includes a responsibility to molding the future of the society they grow up in (however small an influence you might think you have). But @ any age & in any circumstances lying-flat is some b**** s*** there's simply no two ways about it.

Can't. Need to survive.

The problem is already much bigger than a full time job. What am I supposed to do with a couple of hours here and there? Additionally, have you seen how merely withdrawing personal support from society was activating the Loyalty Circuits of some people? Imagine what reaction actual Opposition would create. If you're not big on coercion or violence, even defensively (and I use the term loosely), thats a hard path to consider.

 

[Joij21]

Well, at least you're in the right thread for finding out that this "similarity" is imposed on you by a weak society that pressures a gender to live down to a certain image. Emotional unavailability and an inability to reach out aren't inherent to us.

Naw it can't be a weak society, our society has achieved so much. It can destroy all the world's people at a minutes notice and go to the Moon!

Therefore it must be weak genes!

I've highlighted the flaws in your first statement.

As for the second, your inability to do something has no impact on the many thousands who seem to be quite capable to do that very thing on a daily basis.

Naw man, I'm right and your wrong. Let's face it civilization is collapsing.

Now give me free money!!!

 

[Lexicus]

Excessively ambitious people make you & others in the surrendertown camp their b**** as it has been for all of human history.

Lol, okay

Ironically "going to therapy" involves
taking advice from someone who's ambitious (gotten multiple degrees thus by definition ambitious) so they're not gonna be able to relate to you.

I have multiple degrees

If you don't go for yours you don't deserve anything & people will take what little you have. With no ambitions what's the point of being alive. I guess that's ok if you're elderly or disabled & you know others will take care of you although even then having some goals self efficacy will extend your life & well being.

I guess you must have missed the word "excessively" in my post

 

[Joij21]

I think it should be called welfare-mamaism.

 

[Senethro]

I think it should be called welfare-mamaism.

You're really Bloke Down The Pub-ing right now. Very high confidence, uncertain quantity of knowledge.

 

[Lexicus]

I'm shocked that so many people who have racked up tens of thousands of posts on a computer game forum would strongly identify with a slacker way of life.

That's pretty funny because I'm laughing at people who have racked up thousands of posts on a video game forum defending a #hustle mindstate; to my mind, if they took that stuff seriously they'd be out there #hustling and not posting.

 

[Farm Boy]

Relationships are NOT all about hard work. If you have to work & struggle to get along w someone you need someone better.

This metaphor struggles with the definition of "work." If by "work" we mean the negative connotation of "chore," then yes, we have a problem. That reads similarly to "nagging" sorts of things to do that you don't want to do*. If you take "chore" in the positive connotation, like "morning chores" which is more "the routine and flow of my life**" then yes, a big longstanding partnership takes a lot of chores, a lot of work. It's about prioritization. If you don't prioritize it into everyday activities(the sort we call lifestyles) than it simply becomes not a priority. If the work is fun, life doesn't really improve much from there. That's a type of actualization. When you got it grab it hard.

*but the sink molds if you don't

**she smiles when she notices I scrubbed the stove top after she cooked

 

[Birdjaguar]

This metaphor struggles with the definition of "work." If by "work" we mean the negative connotation of "chore," then yes, we have a problem. That reads similarly to "nagging" sorts of things to do that you don't want to do*. If you take "chore" in the positive connotation, like "morning chores" which is more "the routine and flow of my life**" then yes, a big longstanding partnership takes a lot of chores, a lot of work. It's about prioritization. If you don't prioritize it into everyday activities(the sort we call lifestyles) than it simply becomes not a priority. If the work is fun, life doesn't really improve much from there. That's a type of actualization. When you got it grab it hard.

*but the sink molds if you don't

**she smiles when she notices I scrubbed the stove top after she cooked

Effort might be a better word than work in this situation. It is an ongoing commitment to the other person that puts their needs over one's own.