Mainstreaming Terrorists

[amadeus]

You've let the propaganda convince you that Hitler was a terrorist, which he clearly wasn't. He is nothing like the terrorist organisations at all.

Sharpe never said the Nazis were terrorists. I believe his point is that negotiating with those whose aim is to destroy modern society is a losing proposition. You don't tame a rabid dog by petting it. You have to destroy it.

I would've said it myself, but I had to go to the movies.

 

[privatehudson]

However the western world did attempt to pet Hitler for some time, so I'd argue that we did attempt to mainstream the Nazis at first.

 

[GenMarshall]

I just see the terrorists fighting for a lost hope. The more they attack, the more united the free world becomes. I guess it has to take a terror group a bunch of wacks on the wall to get it.

 

[amadeus]

However the western world did attempt to pet Hitler for some time, so I'd argue that we did attempt to mainstream the Nazis at first.

Look at how well that worked out!

 

[privatehudson]

Hitler controlled a country, much easier to find and fight.

My point being your comment was wrong.

 

[Double Barrel]

Also, as the article suggests, if you give them nothing to fight against then they have no reason to kill people. Read the article and it gives plenty of examples where the punch bag for terrorists is taken away and they have nothing to punch at.

You underestimate the Jihadists' hatred of the west: the modern technology, women's rights, homosexual equality, freedom of speech, and the simple fact that we are not all Muslim.

We -- with God's help -- call on every Muslim who believes in God and wishes to be rewarded to comply with God's order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it,'' - Osama Bin Laden's 1998 Fatwa

Saudi Arabia Text of Fatwa Urging Jihad Against Americans

Do you honestly believe that a hug and a voting booth will sway the Jihadist mindset? Do you really think that simply removing our troops and business interests from Arabia will stop the hatred the Jihadists feel towards the West?

Their hatred is generational, taught from father to son for the past 600 years. They are avenging the freakin' Crusades, for crying out loud! My country wasn't even formed when this stuff occurred.

It is simple: they think we are Satan! How do we deal with that?

 

[Evie]

Will it stop OBL? No, perhaps not (likely not).

But that'S the thing. Not all terrorists are OBL-esque Jihadists. Groups that have definable goals, clear intentions, etc CAN and SHOULD be negociated with, because a terrorist group that is removed from the "terrorist" lines by negociations is)

1)NOT going to appear as martyrs to other potential terrorists, as opposed to group removed by force. No martyrdom = weaker "DEATH TO THE GREAT SATAN" propaganda drive.

2)Proof that the western world is NOT anti-arab, clearly. That arabs with reasonable goals, if they are willing to abandon their violent means, we are willing to work with. Israel seems to have accepted THAT truth, at least in part. By doing so, you tone down the anti-americanism.

3)A blow to the OBL-style jiahdists. Right now they can count on the organizations that oppose America for political reasons as allies because they all want to hurt America. Co-opt those organizations that oppose America for political reasons, and you turn OBL's allies into your friends, or at least, neutral groups. Thus weakening Osama and the absolute Jihadists.

4)Giving them a vested interest in keepign the peace. Show them that what you NEVER give in as long as they use terrorism, they can gain - at least in part - by using peceful means. Slowly spread the notion that AQ and the Jihadists are MENACES to such peaceful resolutions, which is the only way they'll attain their objectives.

It's basic strategy straight out of Sun Tzu's art of war, really.

 

[amadeus]

Hitler controlled a country, much easier to find and fight.

My point being your comment was wrong.

What then do you propose to stop terrorism, if you believe it can be stopped?

 

[Evie]

Stopping terrorism is as much of a pointless dream as stopping war; both of them are means to an end, not ends, and you can't figh against a mean.

 

[plustaticman]

I'd be interested to hear the views of the military folk here who served against 'the terrorists'. Should the coalition be breaking its moto negotiating with them?

The decision isn't really ours to make.

If the Iraqi government wants to negotiate, then it is our job to facilitate that so long as Coalition aren't killed while Iraq's government sits idly by. Should that happen, we leave.

Make no mistake. Coalition soldiers want Iraq to be successful. We like it when we can rely on them to do their own raids and keep the peace themselves. We don't get shot at that way, and we get home to our families sooner.

All that said, I can't find a word strong enough to describe my "dislike" of terrorists. It is, to say the least, a weak way of fighting a war. Only the most cowardly hide behind the innocent. And only the most evil kill target them and call it war.

 

[plustaticman]

By rooting them out and eliminating them. However, this has to be done quietly, and in such a way that we don't create more of them by killing their families with airstrikes and shelling as we occupy their countries. I wonder how many suicide bombers in Iraq lost family members during the invasion and subsequent 'smaller' military offensives...

very difficult with 24hr instant media. We also do conduct very pinpoint raids in an effort to be "quiet" about removing the threats.

 

[plustaticman]

You underestimate the Jihadists' hatred of the west: the modern technology, women's rights, homosexual equality, freedom of speech, and the simple fact that we are not all Muslim.



Saudi Arabia Text of Fatwa Urging Jihad Against Americans

Do you honestly believe that a hug and a voting booth will sway the Jihadist mindset? Do you really think that simply removing our troops and business interests from Arabia will stop the hatred the Jihadists feel towards the West?

Their hatred is generational, taught from father to son for the past 600 years. They are avenging the freakin' Crusades, for crying out loud! My country wasn't even formed when this stuff occurred.

It is simple: they think we are Satan! How do we deal with that?

We kill when we have to.

But we play soccer with the kids, give them candy, hand them a Baseball cap from an American team, show them pictures of our kids at home. Then, we hope that 10 years later, when they have the choice of whether to become a terrorist, they remember that soldier who gave them those things and wonder to themselves if we are really as bad as they are being taught. The adults are gone, win over the children if we can. I truly believe that is our last hope. If we fail there, then it is unfortunate, but only one of our cultures will come out of this.

 

[privatehudson]

What then do you propose to stop terrorism, if you believe it can be stopped?

In some cases adressing the aims of the terrorist group and/or their political affiliations. In others I don't believe it can be, only made worse by our own actions.

 

[storealex]

Exactly! They try to split US from EU. We should try to split AQ and other "We wont stop until you are all dead" from the ones who are more like "We wont stop until we get at least 25% of the parliament seats"

 

[amadeus]

In some cases adressing the aims of the terrorist group and/or their political affiliations. In others I don't believe it can be, only made worse by our own actions.

Saying that doesn't really mean anything. What would you be willing to give up?

 

[BasketCase]

I was actually talking about the ideological root.

We must push for reform in Islam...We must foster the young to be moderates, not rabid fundies.

Theory posed by a friend of mine: introduce skateboards to the Muslim world.

Then Muslim teenagers will be so busy bustin' a move on stairs and benches with their street planks that they won't have time for suicide bombings.

 

[Rambuchan]

We kill when we have to.

But we play soccer with the kids, give them candy, hand them a Baseball cap from an American team, show them pictures of our kids at home. Then, we hope that 10 years later, when they have the choice of whether to become a terrorist, they remember that soldier who gave them those things and wonder to themselves if we are really as bad as they are being taught. The adults are gone, win over the children if we can. I truly believe that is our last hope. If we fail there, then it is unfortunate, but only one of our cultures will come out of this.

I like your attitude man. I hope you are learning equally from them too. Showing them some common humanity and brotherhood is a good way to start winning back some hearts and minds.

EDIT:

@ Doublebarrel: Again you are characterising them all by the one doctrine. It's been pointed out as false already.

 

[Double Barrel]

@ Doublebarrel: Again you are characterising them all by the one doctrine. It's been pointed out as false already.

Rambuchan, as I've already stated, there is a clear difference between Muslims and Jihadists.

I am not generalizing anything. If we can reach those extremist Muslims that desire a peaceful coexistence with the West, then fine, your plan of action might work.

However, your idealism is blinding you to the cold hard reality that there are Jihadist elements of the extreme fundamentalist Muslim populations that will never compromise with the West.

They desire ends that cannot be accomplished without the full and complete destruction of our way of life, including the elimination of Israel, homosexuals, women's rights, and a host of other societal structures that they have deemed an affront to their version of Allah.

What I am asking you, without all the unrealistic ideals of what you would want to achieve in a perfect world, is what do you propose we do with the tens of thousands of Jihadists that have sworn their lives towards the destruction of the West?

I don't need words of a delusional optimist, as we can all hope for peppermints and buttercups. For an education, I want to see your idea(s) of the methods of dealing with an extremely violent group of religious fundies that cannot be tamed with negotiation.

 

[JoeM]

Hehe...hopefully not.

Seriously though, that may be a large part of the problem. Trying to depose a dictatorship in a muslim country while at the same time trying to fight muslim terrorists is a good way to not accomplish either goal. Each action makes the other immensely more difficult.

Well I disagree and I think several Anti-Iraq War people fall for the same bull assumptions about the "War on Terrorism".

I admit I don't know but I will bet you any money that those responsible are not Afghani or Iraqi.

I'll admit if we had just carried out an invasion of say Saudi Arabia I'd be quicker to agree. In fact we pander to the Saudis, and Saudis still train to be and sponsor terrorists, so the arguement doesn't hold to conclusion.

 

[privatehudson]

Saying that doesn't really mean anything.

I believe it does. I don't see a problem with recognising that whilst all terrorists are scum, sometimes some of them can be dealt with by adressing the root of the reasons for their actions such as has happened in Northern Ireland. At the same time there clearly are other terrorists whose aims are impossible to address. What I'm not convinced about is that invading other countries that support the wrong kind of terrorist actually achieves more than the damage it does back in terms of adding more potential recruits and excuses to justify those aims in the eyes of extremists.

Perhaps that's not an answer you wanted, but it is my view on the matter.

What would you be willing to give up?

Very little. I take the view that only reasonable levels of precaution should be taken and not extremes. For example whilst baggage checking on planes is not something that bothers me, I'd be against the same on trains as this would make the cost of train travel ridiculous and train journey times would be similarly mad. On the other hand I'm not against the principle of ID cards. We cannot in my opinion ever totally prevent such attacks, if anything Israeli experience shows us this. I refuse to change my life drastically, or vote for someone who would plan to out of a paranoia over something that cannot ever be completely prevented.

I'm afraid you'd have to ask a more specific question if you feel my answer didn't address it. If you have a specific thing or list then do feel free to ask me by all means.