Making of "Brave New World" - article from Polygon

Like the last question, good point. So is there something of a "mystery" factor to Brazil that puts it over Australia or Canada ? Its well known in the sense of name recognition, but how much do western audiences actually know OF the country's history, culture, and peoples.

So people must know of the country. Australia, Canada, and Brazil, all check. I think the thing that separates Brazil from that list is a deeper knowledge of the countries. I'll use myself as an example. I can name more cities, leaders, personalities from Australia and Canada than I can Brazil. I can tell you more about Canada/Australia from inception to now than I can about Brazil. I know of Brazil, but I don't know Brazil. They are familiar but foreign.

Name recognition, potential for a big market, and has a bit of mystery to it....and I'm assuming in the mystery is a story that is somewhat different from Canada/America/Australia.

Hmmm, you may have me convinced...lets see what Phil puts in.

Brazil is the only one not to have Elizabeth II as its monarch...

I think that the idea behind Brazil is that it is going to become an economic superpower within the next few years, while there is no such speculation for Canada and Australia. Also, Brazil's populous is far higher than both of the other two. It also increases representation of the non-English speaking world, but I still want Canada and Australia in my game. The fact that few people know much about Brazil is an even better reason to include them.
 
Brazil is the only one not to have Elizabeth II as its monarch...

Yes, does speak to the "familiarity" factor to western audiences. Needs to be known, but not too familiar.

I think that the idea behind Brazil is that it is going to become an economic superpower within the next few years, while there is no such speculation for Canada and Australia. Also, Brazil's populous is far higher than both of the other two. It also increases representation of the non-English speaking world, but I still want Canada and Australia in my game. The fact that few people know much about Brazil is an even better reason to include them.

I'll say upfront that I'm not arguing for their exclusion, just how much the bit in bold should play in the decision making process.

Yes, they are the only BRIC nation not represented, but we shouldn't put too much weight on what COULD be. It really understates the massive challenges that are ahead of them.
 
Caught this off of the Facebook page yesterday. A very nice read!

I agree I honestly think Ed and Dennis saved Civ 5 from ending up a horrible game, if they stay on, imagine what the diplomacy is going to be like!

Sans the neagtivity, I'll agree with the above. Ed and Dennis have taken the game to awesome levels and made it a lot more fun to play.

Maybe it's popularity has something to do with its player base - which I doubt -, but if Brazil's market was the only reason behind its inclusion, why not Canada or Australia instead?

Because no one would take Canada seriously. Least of all the Canadians. :lol::lol::lol:
 
Yes, does speak to the "familiarity" factor to western audiences. Needs to be known, but not too familiar.



I'll say upfront that I'm not arguing for their exclusion, just how much the bit in bold should play in the decision making process.

Yes, they are the only BRIC nation not represented, but we shouldn't put too much weight on what COULD be. It really understates the massive challenges that are ahead of them.

The BRICS (which presently include South Africa as well, also not in the game) is a political gesture - as far as I know it's not particularly based on economic theory about which powers are likely to become dominant, and was in any case founded during Brazil's recent soybean-fuelled growth spurt which has now almost sputtered to a halt in relation to the rising economies of China and India (I don't know the current state of Russia's).

Even if you feel that a game with an end date of 2050 should include a civ on the grounds that it's projected to become a potential major power after that date, it's hard not to be cynical where Brazil's concerned. Pundits of one stripe or another have been predicting Brazil's rise on and off for decades, and it never quite happened, despite both a population and land area in excess of most major countries. According to Wikipedia's entry on "emerging superpowers", unlike every other BRICS nation it's questionable whether Brazil yet qualifies as a great power exerting substantial control over its region, let alone a global superpower. Its GDP per person is lower than that of Estonia and of several Central American and Caribbean nations. As I said, it's the geopolitical equivalent of fusion power - always on the horizon but never actually arriving. And talking of it now, but not say 2008 in Civ IV's heyday, in a country riven by economic protests on the back of several years of "disappointing" (to quote Forbes) growth, seems somewhat odd.

Possibly Brazil will finally reach its potential. Possibly so will Bangladesh. But it's certainly not something to bank on, particularly now the short-lived biofuel craze that coincided with Brazil's period of fastest growth has ended.
 
The difference between Brazil and Canada is that Brazil has had the political clout to muscle nearby states into following its interests. Canada has one neighbor, and its relationship with it makes Canada act like a Civ V city-state.
 
Brazil is in the game becouse some factors: geographic (in all the 5 civilizations, we only have the Inca in South America), political-economic (Ok, we don't have the strength that we had a few years, but is yet significant, beyond what may be the most stable diplomacy of world),social-economic (Because of declining taxes, the Brazilians finally is buying games!), the little know history (probably, without Civilization you will never would hear of Don Pedro II, which in my opinion was one of the most visionary leaders the world has ever had, as I would never have heard of Haile Selassie) and the exoticism/turism. Australia and Canada are great countries, but they still "weak" in the world political scenario. Canada becouse they are overshadow by the neighborhood and Australia becouse they are too much isolated...
 
Australia has kangaroo warriors and Canada has armored bears.
That makes them better than US.
 
It was about bus fees.

Bus fees was just the beginning. Before this, the people began to complain about the corruption, the "weak" health and education systens, low quality of the public services, the "midia manipulation", the olympic games, the violence, the police, the politic freedon (we say that we should have while we condemn the parties...), the religious politics, the atheist politics, the illegality of gay mariage and the cannabis... Ultimately, the people complained so many reasons, that the moviment lose the focus and the force (too much brazilians only went to demonstrations just to put the photos on Facebook...). In the end, 80% of the protesters are that facebook photographers and the "hypocrites" (who protest by a good education and hate go to the school), 10% are the rioters, and the least 10% was the inteligent people who was disappointed with the protest. Now we had make a lot of noise just for mediocre changes...
 
If this is their final expansion then they really wasted the last few Civilization slots

Sumer>Assyria

Possibly. Sumer's "selling point" is that it is officially the first civilisation, and behind such fundamental innovations as writing and urbanisation. That is a huge selling point.

But its direct line of descent to later civilizations isn't as clear as it is with Assyria, which really dominated and consolidated its region as possibly the world's first superpower, nor is its identity as a unified society. Assyria is associated with technological advancement, has known named leaders, and even the major thing most non-specialists know about Sumer - the Epic of Gilgamesh - is known originally from a manuscript found in the Royal Library of Nineveh (incidentally, this is the reason the Royal Library UB has a Great Writing-based effect). There is no doubt at all that Assyria deserves to be in the game, and the article presents a very good discussion of Firaxis' reasoning which would justify it even if its place wasn't obvious.

Kongo>Morroco

No. It really is that simple. Kongo was large and long-lasting, and is a fan favourite possibly because of its inclusion in past Civ game scenarios, but almost its entire history was defined by European influence and intervention, it's most famous for its role supplying the European slave trade, and spent large portions of its history involved in internecine warfare. Other than as a large internal trading bloc, its influence on African history (beyond the obvious feature of its size) doesn't seem to be particularly evident.

As for Morocco, where to start? Its omission from a game so heavily-focused on civs relevant to Western and particularly European development is probably the single most glaring gap in the series. It was so pre-eminent that half the achievements listed in the Arab civ's intro text in Civ V are actually attributable to Berber Morocco (the conquest of Iberia and even the trade-focused UA among them). It was a central hub of Western learning and, following the fall of the Caliphate, of a major world religion. If you want an African civ defined by its relationship with Europe, why not choose one which was the dominant partner in that relationship?

Sioux>Shoshone

Not given the reasons Firaxis provided, which make sense. The Shoshone are an odd choice in isolation, but having read the article I agree with Firaxis that they present a more "Native American" civ than another tribe of warriors (albeit one that buys into the other, equally egregious Native American stereotype, that of the "noble savage". At least that stereotype is more specifically tied to Native Americans than the barbarian warmonger one). And having read the article I'm rather glad they weren't able to go with their plans to make the Pueblo some kind of mystic archaeologist civ, its inclusion justified by popular myths about the "Anasazi". The Shoshone ended up with a better reason to be in the game than the Pueblo would have had.

Italy>Venice

Not as a unified civ, and not for gameplay reasons - simply look at the way Venice is designed. What could be done with Italy to make it as unique? Venice is somewhat on the minor side by the standards of some Civ factions (but not, say, Sweden), but it was a genuine empire, it represents a part of Italy not covered by the Roman empire without preventing Italian cities being represented as they should be, as city-states. And the UA for the sort of Italy people were agitating for - culturally dominant, artist-spamming Renaissance Italy - is taken by Brazil. If you want to say that Italy > Brazil, I wouldn't disagree there, but still wouldn't want an anachronistic amalgamation civ.

Plus Enrico Dandolo now takes the award for best leader screen in the game.
 
Possibly. Sumer's "selling point" is that it is officially the first civilisation, and behind such fundamental innovations as writing and urbanisation. That is a huge selling point.

But its direct line of descent to later civilizations isn't as clear as it is with Assyria, which really dominated and consolidated its region as possibly the world's first superpower, nor is its identity as a unified society. Assyria is associated with technological advancement, has known named leaders, and even the major thing most non-specialists know about Sumer - the Epic of Gilgamesh - is known originally from a manuscript found in the Royal Library of Nineveh (incidentally, this is the reason the Royal Library UB has a Great Writing-based effect). There is no doubt at all that Assyria deserves to be in the game, and the article presents a very good discussion of Firaxis' reasoning which would justify it even if its place wasn't obvious.



No. It really is that simple. Kongo was large and long-lasting, and is a fan favourite possibly because of its inclusion in past Civ game scenarios, but almost its entire history was defined by European influence and intervention, it's most famous for its role supplying the European slave trade, and spent large portions of its history involved in internecine warfare. Other than as a large internal trading bloc, its influence on African history (beyond the obvious feature of its size) doesn't seem to be particularly evident.

As for Morocco, where to start? Its omission from a game so heavily-focused on civs relevant to Western and particularly European development is probably the single most glaring gap in the series. It was so pre-eminent that half the achievements listed in the Arab civ's intro text in Civ V are actually attributable to Berber Morocco (the conquest of Iberia and even the trade-focused UA among them). It was a central hub of Western learning and, following the fall of the Caliphate, of a major world religion. If you want an African civ defined by its relationship with Europe, why not choose one which was the dominant partner in that relationship?



Not given the reasons Firaxis provided, which make sense. The Shoshone are an odd choice in isolation, but having read the article I agree with Firaxis that they present a more "Native American" civ than another tribe of warriors (albeit one that buys into the other, equally egregious Native American stereotype, that of the "noble savage". At least that stereotype is more specifically tied to Native Americans than the barbarian warmonger one). And having read the article I'm rather glad they weren't able to go with their plans to make the Pueblo some kind of mystic archaeologist civ, its inclusion justified by popular myths about the "Anasazi". The Shoshone ended up with a better reason to be in the game than the Pueblo would have had.



Not as a unified civ, and not for gameplay reasons - simply look at the way Venice is designed. What could be done with Italy to make it as unique? Venice is somewhat on the minor side by the standards of some Civ factions (but not, say, Sweden), but it was a genuine empire, it represents a part of Italy not covered by the Roman empire without preventing Italian cities being represented as they should be, as city-states. And the UA for the sort of Italy people were agitating for - culturally dominant, artist-spamming Renaissance Italy - is taken by Brazil. If you want to say that Italy > Brazil, I wouldn't disagree there, but still wouldn't want an anachronistic amalgamation civ.

Plus Enrico Dandolo now takes the award for best leader screen in the game.

Don't be the guy who has to produce the counter-reasoning objective to every post.

Shoshone was a rushed together and a obscure replacement for the Pueblo. Even Firaxis admits it in the article when they talked about how hard it was to find anything relevant to them to put in Civilization. Then they throw together a few more Indian cultures into it like the Comanche. The idea they were going for a peaceful Indian civilization and then throw in the Comanche makes them hypocrites since the Comanche were one of the violent, warlike tribes. Then they top it off making the Shoshone UA be about land grabbing which goes against them being peaceful.

Venice I recognize as a worthy empire but it was still just a city state with territories it didn't raze. Before Italy was deconfirmed it was one the most popular choices to include in the expansion with Venice just being a alternative. The idea they couldn't get around the same capital name was just a excuse. Then the idea it wasn't unified for most of its history is basically saying Greece, Celts, Vikings, Shoshone, Iroquois, China shouldn't be in the game. Then finally the Brazil is UA doesn't make sense, but Italy's great people weren't just Artists. Leonardo Di Vinci falls under every category for a great person in-game. We still don't have a have civilization representing all the Italian wonders yet since Venice didn't build the Sistine Chapel, Leaning Tower of Pisa, or produce the most famous great people like Leonardo, Michelangelo, etc.

Next I agree with Assyria being a worthy civ but as the last slot we will ever see in the development cycle? That's what the article claims to be with this expansion.

Then Morocco was just made into a little and slightly better Arabia. Would be better but Camel Archers are currently overpowered. The forts they build are basically free Petra's. I also don't recall them being popular requested like Kongo is.
 
Don't be the guy who has to produce the counter-reasoning objective to every post.

Shoshone was a rushed together and a obscure replacement for the Pueblo. Even Firaxis admits it in the article when they talked about how hard it was to find anything relevant to them to put in Civilization.

That admits they were obscure, not that they were 'rushed together'. Maybe their ideas for the Pueblo sound so unappealing because they were preliminary, but I'd rather have the Shoshone as they are than the Pueblo they described, and either way it doesn't seem they'd avoid some form of Native American stereotyping.

Then they throw together a few more Indian cultures into it like the Comanche. The idea they were going for a peaceful Indian civilization and then throw in the Comanche makes them hypocrites since the Comanche were one of the violent, warlike tribes

That's quite possibly an artefact of the limited research they did (or claimed they were able to do) on the Shoshone.

Then they top it off making the Shoshone UA be about land grabbing which goes against them being peaceful.

That's exactly the point the article made - it doesn't go against them being peaceful. "Peaceful expansionists" is not an archetype that currently exists in the game, and their UA allows them a mechanism for doing exactly that. There's nothing incoherent or inconsistent in their approach there.

Venice I recognize as a worthy empire but it was still just a city state with territories it didn't raze.

Which is basically the way it plays.

Before Italy was deconfirmed it was one the most popular choices to include in the expansion with Venice just being a alternative.

It was popular on threads in the BNW forum, at least following the revelation that an Italian city-state had apparently (and we now know definitely) been replaced, but by the time the forum was up and running the expansion had already been made and the civs determined. I haven't seen many requests for Italy elsewhere, and don't think it was high, if at all, on the forum list of most requested civs.

The idea they couldn't get around the same capital name was just a excuse.

It's not a question of the capital name, it's a question of conceptual conflict with the city-state mechanic and the fact that unified Italy, while economically relevant, is not particularly notable for any of the things people wanted an Italian civ to represent.

Then the idea it wasn't unified for most of its history is basically saying Greece, Celts, Vikings, Shoshone, Iroquois, China shouldn't be in the game.

It's not that it wasn't unified for most of its history, it's that it wasn't unified for the specific part of its history when it was culturally important. This is emphatically not true of Greece, which even has a leader who represents its unified period. It's quite evident from its uniques and its playstyle that the game's Greece does not represent the pre-unification states.

The Celts shouldn't be in the game (and certainly not in their Civ V form), nor really should any Native American tribes with the possible exception of the Iroquois who, while having nothing as formalised as a central government, did have a unified identity.

The Vikings were replaced with the unified state of Denmark perhaps for that very reason.

Despite territorial changes and several periods of internecine warfare, it's a myth that China hasn't been united for the larger part of its history, and it has been important both historically and in modern times during its unified existence.

Then finally the Brazil is UA doesn't make sense, but Italy's great people weren't just Artists.

No, but at least it had Great People. It's downright bizarre that Brazil gets a UA that increases GP production, when so far as I know there isn't a single Brazilian in the GP names lists.

Leonardo Di Vinci falls under every category for a great person in-game

I don't know, he'd struggle as a Great Admiral, Great Prophet or Great Musician.

We still don't have a have civilization representing all the Italian wonders yet since Venice didn't build the Sistine Chapel, Leaning Tower of Pisa, or produce the most famous great people like Leonardo, Michelangelo, etc.

So? There was no Burmese civ in Civ IV but that didn't stop them including Shwedagon Pagoda. There's no Khmer civ in Civ V, yet we have Angkor Wat. Gustavus Adolphus was a Great General in Civ incarnations (vanilla Civ V included) with no Swedish civ. Wonders and GPs have never been tied to the identities of in-game civs.

Then Morocco was just made into a little and slightly better Arabia. Would be better but Camel Archers are currently overpowered. The forts they build are basically free Petra's. I also don't recall them being popular requested like Kongo is.

Not under that name, but "the Moors" were a heavily requested civ. That in any case should hardly be the main criterion for including them.

I think the overlap with Arabia is an unfortunate consequence of the fact that Arabia in Civ games is apparently meant to be an amalgam that includes the Caliphate and Morocco together - as I noted, the Arabian intro text in Civ V is somewhat confused, describing the Moroccan conquest of Spain for example. Morocco was the great trading power of the medieval Islamic world - Arabia should probably be reinvented as a science civ to reflect its key advances in that field.

also, it's significant that the quote in the article does not necessarily say that the consumer markets of indonesia and brazil were a big factor. the quote is: "'Even though you don't think of, say, Indonesia, as a big video game outlet and consumer market, the country is huge now,' says Beach. 'More and more places like Indonesia and Brazil, you just can't ignore how important their growth is here in the 21st century.'"

this can be interpreted a few ways, maybe ed beach is saying that the "hugeness" of these countries contradicts the notion that they're not big markets, but he could also be saying that despite not necessarily being the biggest markets, their "hugeness" makes them significant to the game. i think "huge" here probably refers to the population: indonesia and brazil are the 4th and 5th most populous countries and #1-3 (china, india, USA) have been in every civ.

It takes a somewhat creative approach to English syntax to derive this perspective. To clarify for non-English language natives, it is not conventional for a comma ("'Even though you don't think of, say, Indonesia, as a big video game outlet and consumer market, the country is huge now") to separate unrelated concepts (such as "Indonesia's not thought of as a big game market" and the separate claim "Indonesia's now an important country"). All he's saying here is "You don't think of Indonesia as a big game market, but it actually is now". Note also that he doesn't reference Brazil as a country not thought to be a large game market in this sentence. Indeed, Brazil is (according to Wikipedia) the 15th largest video game market in the world, with "potential" to overtake Mexico as the largest market in Latin America, while SE Asia as a whole is thought likely to double its video game market by 2015.

Taken out of the broader context, it might seem reasonable to interpret the comment about these countries' growth being hard to ignore in the 21st Century more broadly ... but while I don't know about Brazil, Indonesia was the fourth most populous country in the world when Civ I was released. In terms of economic growth, I already noted that Brazil's prospects for economic superpowerdom looked considerably stronger when Civ IV was released than when Civ V was. They aren't obviously harder to ignore in the early 21st Century than they were in the late 20th. In the context that both areas are growing and considered "places to watch" in the video game industry, it's most likely by far that he was referring to the game industry specifically.
 
I'm surprised Menzies didn't get a shout-out for the Venetian color theory.

The whole narrative of the article is: "this is how we use history to decide how to choose and shape our Civs. We read books and stuff. Heck, one our guys went to Venice on his honeymoon to do some research."

"Oh yeah, for the Venice colours, we just knicked it from a random flag on Wikipedia and we got found out", does not quite fit the narrative. If Menzies would have gotten a mention, it would've been for his work on city state naming/colouring
 
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