Making of "Brave New World" - article from Polygon

[PhilBowles]

What room is there for another expansion? What basic gameplay mechanics are still missing? Health and sanitation? Other than that (which seems to me would be functionally redundant with happiness), I don't know what people think is missing.

That's looking at it from the perspective of "what was in Civ IV that isn't in Civ V" rather than "what could be added". There's a whole host of things that could be included that haven't been in any Civ game (as with archaeology and tourism in this expansion). Some are treated by mods - for example, migration between cities. What's more, even apparently minor elements can sell an expansion - while international trade was recognised as a key omission from Civ V + G&K, few people here thought "trade routes + UN" would work as major expansion themes.

We've had one expansion focused broadly on the "early game" and now one focused on the "late game", with very broad-brush mechanics and a focus on big game/world events - religion, interactions between civs (espionage, naval improvements, two revisions of diplo victory, added CS types, international trade, tourism, ideologies), and victory conditions. We now have a rather comprehensive set of 'macro' mechanics and systems.

What's notably missing in a game focused on empire building is much focus on the empire itself - internal factors affecting your own society's development. This is a broad thematic umbrella that could incorporate, for instance:

- Taxation
- Health
- Internal migration and immigration/emigration policies
- Civil unrest and civil wars
- Government (beyond the existing social policy system) and corruption.
- Environmental management (such as sustainable use of resources)

On top of which, there have now been two overhauls to diplomatic victory and one to cultural victory. There's still scope for revisiting science and domination victory conditions (perhaps including reviving the trip to Alpha Centauri and optional extra spaceship parts to speed the journey).

On top of possible changes to the tech tree, extra civs, extra units and buildings, extra Wonders and NWs, and changes and refinements to existing systems, that's more than enough for one more expansion.

Health seems like it could be implemented as a purely local mechanic for each city.

There's an imperfect but nice mod doing just that. However, the best city management mod I know of for Civ V is called Emigration, which is basically a twist on the old Civ games' local happiness system. Prosperous cities (the prosperity system takes account of several factors, but is designed so that local happiness is the most important) attract migrants to them from surrounding cities (including foreign ones), while less prosperous ones suffer a 'brain drain' elsewhere. This and the health mod both succeed in making happiness and health management meaningful, with bonuses for performing well and penalties for doing badly, rather than simply acting as constraints on growth as in past Civ games.

They're both fun mods to play, and show that Civ V can be adapted well for micromanagement. The only downside is that, while they seem naturally to go together, they aren't compatible with each other - Emigration works fine, but Health & Plague loses the city health score, and without that your cities will be plague-ridden in no time.

 

[King_Course]

Why is it so important to fill in geographic holes when almost everyone plays on non-earth maps?

Because, as he mentions with Indonesia, the players are more and more often coming from these geographical holes and want to play a Civ they can identify with.

 

[God of Kings]

Because, as he mentions with Indonesia, the players are more and more often coming from these geographical holes and want to play a Civ they can identify with.

It is mainly for marketing reasons (although it does not explain Canada's absence).

 

[Viregel]

I'll say upfront that I'm not arguing for their exclusion, just how much the bit in bold should play in the decision making process.

Yes, they are the only BRIC nation not represented, but we shouldn't put too much weight on what COULD be. It really understates the massive challenges that are ahead of them.

I am sceptical about Brazil's economy, but given the current pension system and the rest of its sources of wealth, it looks likely to collapse within the next few years.

Because no one would take Canada seriously. Least of all the Canadians.

I would take Canada seriously...

They were involved in D-Day, so that should make them slightly less ridiculous.

 

[Luziadus]

its so ridiculous when they were chosing the civs:

"And so, Indonesia and Brazil. Check. Zulu and Morocco, check. (without discussion) Five to go.

then

"Portugal ... doesn't meet the geographic diversity requirement, because Europe was already heavily represented, but it's a fan favorite," says Strenger."

lolol what a moron so Portugal doesnt meet the geographic requirement but Zulu and Morrocco meet? and Venice? Shoshone? so ridiculous.

 

[Luziadus]

That's looking at it from the perspective of "what was in Civ IV that isn't in Civ V" rather than "what could be added". There's a whole host of things that could be included that haven't been in any Civ game (as with archaeology and tourism in this expansion). Some are treated by mods - for example, migration between cities. What's more, even apparently minor elements can sell an expansion - while international trade was recognised as a key omission from Civ V + G&K, few people here thought "trade routes + UN" would work as major expansion themes.

We've had one expansion focused broadly on the "early game" and now one focused on the "late game", with very broad-brush mechanics and a focus on big game/world events - religion, interactions between civs (espionage, naval improvements, two revisions of diplo victory, added CS types, international trade, tourism, ideologies), and victory conditions. We now have a rather comprehensive set of 'macro' mechanics and systems.

What's notably missing in a game focused on empire building is much focus on the empire itself - internal factors affecting your own society's development. This is a broad thematic umbrella that could incorporate, for instance:

- Taxation
- Health
- Internal migration and immigration/emigration policies
- Civil unrest and civil wars
- Government (beyond the existing social policy system) and corruption.
- Environmental management (such as sustainable use of resources)

On top of which, there have now been two overhauls to diplomatic victory and one to cultural victory. There's still scope for revisiting science and domination victory conditions (perhaps including reviving the trip to Alpha Centauri and optional extra spaceship parts to speed the journey).

On top of possible changes to the tech tree, extra civs, extra units and buildings, extra Wonders and NWs, and changes and refinements to existing systems, that's more than enough for one more expansion.



There's an imperfect but nice mod doing just that. However, the best city management mod I know of for Civ V is called Emigration, which is basically a twist on the old Civ games' local happiness system. Prosperous cities (the prosperity system takes account of several factors, but is designed so that local happiness is the most important) attract migrants to them from surrounding cities (including foreign ones), while less prosperous ones suffer a 'brain drain' elsewhere. This and the health mod both succeed in making happiness and health management meaningful, with bonuses for performing well and penalties for doing badly, rather than simply acting as constraints on growth as in past Civ games.

They're both fun mods to play, and show that Civ V can be adapted well for micromanagement. The only downside is that, while they seem naturally to go together, they aren't compatible with each other - Emigration works fine, but Health & Plague loses the city health score, and without that your cities will be plague-ridden in no time.

and random events, like natural catastrophies.

 

[Louis XXIV]

"Portugal ... doesn't meet the geographic diversity requirement, because Europe was already heavily represented, but it's a fan favorite," says Strenger."

lolol what a moron so Portugal doesnt meet the geographic requirement but Zulu and Morrocco meet? and Venice? Shoshone? so ridiculous.

Ummm, certainly the answer is yes for the Zulu and Shoshone. Do you understand what they mean by geographic diversity?

 

[PhilBowles]

its so ridiculous when they were chosing the civs:

"And so, Indonesia and Brazil. Check. Zulu and Morocco, check. (without discussion) Five to go.

then

"Portugal ... doesn't meet the geographic diversity requirement, because Europe was already heavily represented, but it's a fan favorite," says Strenger."

lolol what a moron so Portugal doesnt meet the geographic requirement but Zulu and Morrocco meet? and Venice? Shoshone? so ridiculous.

As another poster stated, I'm not sure you understand what he refers to by geographical diversity.

As for Morocco and the Zulu, in an earlier part of the same section (before discussing Indonesia and Brazil) the designer mentions Africa as an area players want more representation from, and it's that that he's referring to by "Morocco and Zulu in". It's badly-parsed and doesn't flow very well, but it is there.

 

[PhilBowles]

and random events, like natural catastrophies.

The designers are explicitly against random events, and considering that in games of this nature (including Civ IV) they can be gamebreaking, I can't altogether blame them. The much less substantial randomness of discovering a key Natural Wonder, getting an early faith ruin, or a good ruin promotion in Civ V is decried by many. The mods I mentioned act as a caution as well - plague in Health & Plague is handled as a random event, and while health management can reduce your chances of contracting plague in your city, there's always a random chance it will spread (and in the early game not enough sources of positive health to make it especially unlikely), and if it does there's nothing you can do but wait for it to die naturally (again a random chance), preferably without killing many citizens (with a random chance of losing 1 each turn from a plagued city).

This can effectively wipe some civs out of the game if they're unlucky, which adds a further random element on top of the random chance that plague will hurt you much more sometimes than at others given exactly the same conditions - you obviously have a much easier time if one of your close rivals is debilitated (so long as he's not quite close enough to spread plague to you).

As I say, Health & Plague is imperfect - it's drastically unbalanced by the huge role randomness plays until you reach a point when you can almost stop plague spreading, and AI inability to plan for plague conditions (because the AI hasn't been adjusted for the mod) can heavily stack the game even after that point - but it's not atypical of this kind of thing in games more generally. While I miss it for flavour reasons, the Civ I/II civil war random event was probably even more absurdly unbalanced than the worst excesses of Civ IV.

 

[Luziadus]

As another poster stated, I'm not sure you understand what he refers to by geographical diversity.

As for Morocco and the Zulu, in an earlier part of the same section (before discussing Indonesia and Brazil) the designer mentions Africa as an area players want more representation from, and it's that that he's referring to by "Morocco and Zulu in". It's badly-parsed and doesn't flow very well, but it is there.

well he says that Portugal doesnt have the requiments for geographical diversity and even says that Europe was already heavily representend so what they do? add Poland and Venice, is this geographical diversity?

 

[Morningcalm]

and random events, like natural catastrophies.

Right, and while CS quests do clutter up the "events of the day" in the game quite a bit, I think there's room to include random events (captured spy, holy mountain quest, etc) so long as they aren't just arbitrary damage. (i.e. "The construction of your factory has angered some workers, and there is talk of a strike." (with some actions you could take to avoid the strike, and then only after you ignore it will they strike, causing a happiness dip, productivity dip, etc).

Still, I doubt they'll make another expansion, even if there is definitely room for one.

 

[Sharkweather]

- Taxation
- Health
- Internal migration and immigration/emigration policies
- Civil unrest and civil wars
- Government (beyond the existing social policy system) and corruption.
- Environmental management (such as sustainable use of resources)

Oh my, yes please. This would be an awesome addition.

 

[phos_hilaron]

As much as the community has voiced their opinion on additional Expansion packs, an interview with Polygon here:

http://www.polygon.com/features/2013/6/27/4453070/civ-the-making-of-brave-new-world

tells us that BNW is the final expansion pack. Here's the quote:

Strenger now sits at a table with Ed Beach and Scott Lewis, veteran designers who, along with Strenger, are the leads of Firaxis' upcoming Civ 5 expansion, Brave New World, the final official release for the game this team has been working on for seven straight years.

How do you read this?

 

[AlpsStranger]

Final? I guess.

I mean, that's obviously the plan. Plans do change sometimes.

That said, if I were betting my first born son I would say this is probably it ( barring some DLC. )

 

[JanghanHong]

Final? I guess.

I mean, that's obviously the plan. Plans do change sometimes.

That said, if I were betting my first born son I would say this is probably it ( barring some DLC. )

Good choice, if the third expansion comes out, you won't have time to tend your first born son.

 

[SnowKomodo]

Already a thread for this:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=499330

Moderator Action: Threads merged

 

[joncnunn]

Yup, I would read "putting to bed" as no more expansions or new DLC for Civ V. There are likely to be a few patches though. My guess is the last patch will be sometime between December 13 & June 14.

As to couple of years; they better already have (in secret) started Civ VI if the targeted release date is only two or three years away. The last thing the civ franchise needs is for paying customers to feel like they were all beta testers for the first nine months after release again.

 

[PhilBowles]

Oh my, yes please. This would be an awesome addition.

Forgot to note that pollution could be in the environmental management section.

Thing is, it's striking that so much from older Civ games (some omitted in Civ IV, like civil wars) can be grouped into a single coherent theme, along with possible new mechanics. It would be a shame not to take the opportunity.