[GS] Making the jump from King to Diety

[Alashiya]

Hi, I've recently decided to start trying to master the game at Deity level, I'm having a great time* but Imy a$$ is getting kicked esp from instant dislike neighbours whats the best way to ensure you can survive the initial storm on Deity level?

2 slingers rather than scouts so I can beeline Archery?
Go for Agoge or Maritime industries ASAP?






*I'm not a masochist but I'm loving the challenge

 

[Odofakyodo]

On the very turn you meet someone, send them a delegation (if you have the gold) and offer open borders (if you have the Early Empire civic). This will make them friendlier toward you. Also, if your economy permits it and it is necessary, you can give them gifts (gold, strategic resources, luxuries, diplo favor) to make them like you more. Favorable trade deals can get up to +10 toward their friendly disposition toward you, but it decays over time.

I think your idea of starting off with 2 slingers and beelining archery is probably the safest option. I usually start off with a slinger so I can fend off barbs and hopefully get the archery boost. After that I may go for a builder if I feel like I'm in a pretty safe position, but if I have met someone and haven't been able to get them to like me, I will go for the second slinger and beeline archery. Sometimes I have guessed wrong, though, and gotten killed by playing it too safe (rare, but does happen).

I don't usually go for scouts because scouting too far too early means I'm more likely to meet more people sooner. If you meet people too early - before you get a comfortable foothold and establish some defenses and an economy - then you may not be able to send them a delegation, or you may not be able to defend yourself. Also, occasionally you might get a free scout from a tribal village, in which case the production for your initial scout seems somewhat wasted. On the other hand, by not scouting far you won't pick up as many goody huts and may not be able to trade with civs that turn out to be friendly.

Two archers is a good start to a defense, but you'll want to make 3 archers eventually to get the boost to Machinery, so if you have to do it sooner than you want that's okay. If nothing is threatening me I would be feeling pretty confident mobilizing most of my army toward one of my neighbors in the hopes of stealing a settler from them.

That's typically what I'm thinking about in the very early game. Next steps for defense might be a little variable depending on map and situation:

• Build a quarry to get the boost to Masonry and build Ancient Walls (which will give the boost to Engineering).
• Increase the garrison strength of your cities by working toward stronger units: Spearman, Horseman, Swordsman, or even Galley.
• Build an encampment. I usually do this in my 2nd city to provide extra defense closer to neighbors. At least one city with an encampment is needed to get several tech boosts throughout the game.
• Build more units, period. Use Agoge or Maritime Industries as necessary.

 

[Alashiya]

Thank you Odofakyodo I see now that my management of neighbouring civs was poor it was the meet neighbour, neighbour takes instant dislike to you , neighbour swamps you with warriors > game over. that waskilling me I've been playing as Phoenicia so I tend to go for naval power once I've build up a defensive on land bridgehead

 

[Alashiya]

I've kinda figured out how to survive the early attempt at wiping me out where I'm constantly weak is keeping up with Science & Culture despite trying to create a Theatre & Campus zones asap

 

[HiRezAudio]

I'd go to Emperor mode first, just to get the hang of the advantages the AI gets.
On Deity mode I can win probably 4 times out of 10 at best though....
Ideally my initial build order is slinger, slinger, monument, settler, settler - I want to have 3 cities planted by turn 50 if possible, but this is not always an option.
The reason for the 2 slingers is that 3 units seems to be about the point where the AI will not automatically come for you although if you get Monty near you at the start a re-roll is usually best.
Don't build Campuses too early - unless there is an outrageously good site - the first district proper should be the Government Plaza, and the first governor should be Magnus, promoted to not lose pop on settler & to add the extra food & growth with traders, and then get trade routes out as fast as you can on internal routes to get those roads & city growth.
New cities should be sited as close to each other as possible too for Loyalty reasons unless there is a potential target, sorry an AI near you in which case get as close as possible & fill in the gaps later.

It all kinda depends on what Civ you are playing.
2/3 archers and a warrior & you can hold off all comers - do not attack barbs with warriors, instead fortify & let them suicide on you (they always will).
Avoid spearmen as they suck, ditto catapults (2 shots & they are dead)

Set yourself targets and do not think too hard about win strategy for 100 turns - all you are trying to do is survive - and all you really need are 10 cities to win.
Do not try for huge populations, but instead plan your city layouts and use the extended map tacks mod as this will tell you what district yields you will get.
Plan your IZ next to Aqueducts & Dams so that each IZ hits as many cities as possible.
So many possible strategies in the first, crucial 100 turns....

 

[HiRezAudio]

Forgot this:
Beeline Cultural Philosophy for Civics, going to Early Empire before Craftsmanship.
Techs? depends entirely on what Civ you are playing as.

 

[Leucarum]

I've kinda figured out how to survive the early attempt at wiping me out where I'm constantly weak is keeping up with Science & Culture despite trying to create a Theatre & Campus zones asap

The best advice I got was actually not to rush these districts ASAP. District costs will increase as you go through the game, but if you place them but then don't build them it locks the cheap cost from when they were placed. It might feel like an exploit, but it does seem to be what the developers intended. I guess it prevents the cost of a district suddenly changing while you are building it.

As a result, your best early game plan is probably to try and just lay the foundations of your empire so you can fill it in more cheaply later. Try to get 8-10 cities out within the first 100 turns, either by building or conquest, and rather than building districts, just set up where you will want them to be and lock in the cheaper cost. When you then go to build all of them (or chop them out once you have feudalism) you'll find that you can suddenly and very rapidly catch up with the AI and then overtake them by being more efficient.

 

[HiRezAudio]

I totally agree with placing but not building districts too soon - this is a common mistake, as it is much more important to
A - not look like an easy target (3 archers should allow you to hold off most problems if you also have early walls up)
B - get those important first 5-10 cities up ASAP.
The main early district is the Government Plaza, which needs to be done ASAP.

 

[Alashiya]

how do I boost settler production up when I start? I'm using Magnus (with Provision) and the early empire civic and sometimes the government plaza + Ancestral Hall I'm still falling right behind the other civs and Ive already lost by the end of the classical era

 

[Leucarum]

If you have some screenshots it might be easier to help.

How much are you improving your tiles and which tiles are you improving? Try making sure you boost (and work) production tiles (as long as you have enough food to grow) to make sure you can get those settlers on the board.
Are you having trouble securing space to grow? The extra time spent building the gov't plaza and the ancestral hall can often equate to a couple of settlers depending on how much production you have, and getting those settlers out early can be more important than the free builder and a discount, especially if you have to forward settle to secure land.

More advanced but if you are a religious civ and can score a golden age then getting monumentality can turn settler production into easy mode. In particular, civs that have start biases to terrains associated with the terrain-specific Pantheons (Tundra - Russia/Canada, Rainforest - Brazil/Vietnam, Desert - Mali/Nubia) can get a head-start on insane faith production early which monumentality can turn into a tonne of settlers.

 

[Bibor]

how do I boost settler production up when I start? I'm using Magnus (with Provision) and the early empire civic and sometimes the government plaza + Ancestral Hall I'm still falling right behind the other civs and Ive already lost by the end of the classical era

The govt plaza itself can be a relatively cheap investment. What's really expensive is the Ancestral Hall. What I usually do is to pre-chop settlers & send them on their merry way, and *then* I chop out the Ancestral Hall before they found their respective cities. I do a similar thing if about to research Feudalism. Waiting a turn or two with your settler in spot can be worth it for the extra 3 charges (Ancestrall hall) or +2 charges (Feudalism).

I also 'feed' these free workers from newlyfounded cities back to the Ancestral Hall city, to chop even more settlers out, thus creating a feedback loop.

I usually start by building only one settler as soon as i hit pop 2. I send it to found the second city that will get the govt plaza (with lots of forests/deer/stone). After that I usually focus first on defense (3 slingers + a warrior or something similar), followed by focus food & production in capital (to about pop 6) before starting working on settlers again. Effectively, I get the second city down at around turn 20 (normal speed) and then there's a 30 turn hiatus till turn 50-60 and then I rush the rest of the settlers out with from T61 to T100.

This gives you a 30 turn 'gap' between settlers that can be used for whatever you need (defense, infrastructure, monuments, early half-cost districts etc.).


It's really, really important to settle on a 2/2 tile and be able to work at least two 2/2 hexes with both your initial cities.

The potential production loss in this 30-turn gap can be huge if you settle 2-production cities (1 from city center, 1 from worked tile). It can be anywhere from ~50 production per city, all the way up to ~150 production per city, perhaps even more. This is where your deficit production comes from that makes you fall behind in the early game. With two cities, that can mean more than 200 production, forever lost. Just for comparison, that's 4 slingers & 2 warriors worth of production.

 

[Alashiya]

Forgive my ignorance but I'm not sure how monumentality can boost settler production

 

[Leucarum]

Forgive my ignorance but I'm not sure how monumentality can boost settler production

If you get a monumentality golden age then you can use faith to purchase settlers - it works out very cost-effective and civs that have a lot of faith production can jump ahead very fast.

 

[Alashiya]

If you get a monumentality golden age then you can use faith to purchase settlers - it works out very cost-effective and civs that have a lot of faith production can jump ahead very fast.

Thank you! I get that

 

[Just another Jaguara]

I usually start by building only one settler as soon as i hit pop 2. I send it to found the second city that will get the govt plaza (with lots of forests/deer/stone). After that I usually focus first on defense (3 slingers + a warrior or something similar), followed by focus food & production in capital (to about pop 6) before starting working on settlers again. Effectively, I get the second city down at around turn 20 (normal speed) and then there's a 30 turn hiatus till turn 50-60 and then I rush the rest of the settlers out with from T61 to T100.

In my latest games, it's been better for me to go for an early third city (even before Early Empire, and even if I'm planning to build the Ancestral Hall later). It seems counterintuitive, but I guess the third city helps boosting culture to reach Early Empire and State Workforce. This would be my peaceful approach today.
If I intend to rush a neighbor, however, I'll only found a second city then work on an army.

 

[Bibor]

In my latest games, it's been better for me to go for an early third city (even before Early Empire, and even if I'm planning to build the Ancestral Hall later). It seems counterintuitive, but I guess the third city helps boosting culture to reach Early Empire and State Workforce. This would be my peaceful approach today.
If I intend to rush a neighbor, however, I'll only found a second city then work on an army.

If you play Rome, then yes. Otherwise, I guess the hammers will be better spent on monuments? You have to also count in the number of turns it takes to settle the city (again something that Rome's auto-roads are great at).

Also, natural wonders can be used in this fashion. It's pefectly valid to have a third city "dedicated" to an early natural wonder like Cliffs of Dover.

 

[Just another Jaguara]

I guess the hammers will be better spent on monuments?

As I mentioned, it's counterintuitive. Monument is my first building in almost every city. However, this does not apply to my capital and often not to the second city. Actually, I know I've been delaying the monument in my capital, while favouring settlers, units or even a builder. This probably explains a lot.

 

[Bibor]

As I mentioned, it's counterintuitive. Monument is my first building in almost every city. However, this does not apply to my capital and often not to the second city. Actually, I know I've been delaying the monument in my capital, while favouring settlers, units or even a builder. This probably explains a lot.

No need for intuition, just count the turns, production and yields.

Your capital gains roughly 480 prodution (on a really good spawn) in 50 turns.
Your first settler costs 80, your second one 30*20+50 = 110. That's 190 production. 290 is left for productive use.

If you chain two settlers from the get-go, you plant the first city at around turn 22 (wait for pop 2, then build is 12 turns + movement to city position), and the second one at turn 36-ish.
Being very generous again and presuming settling on a 2:2 tile and working another 2:2 tile, these two cities combined will yield 247 production till turn 50.

Thus, for an investment of 190, you gain 247, which is an incremental 30% increase in empire-wide output.

But, you also lose population in your capital, twice, so that's another possible 20-25 production loss, which with other factors brings down the effective yield of your new cities closer to 200 production.

In short, except for the land grab, three cities that don't bring additional benefits into the mix (like settling a natural wonder, culture, faith or generally really good tiles) will give you a net zero benefit till turn 50.

***

Now lets talk monuments.
Building a monument at turn 10 (monument first) yields 82 culture till turn 50.
Building two settlers first, building a monument as a first build in your second city, and then one in your capital (the third city can't even finish it till T50), yields a total of 62 culture till turn 50.

Yes, Rome is very powerful for snowball. It shaves off turns in settler movement (provided you chain cities in one direction) as well as yielding whopping 184 culture till turn 50. Provided you go "two settlers first".


EDIT: My math is sloppy, its more to illustrate a point. Exact numbers would require counting population growth timings and actual available terrain quality.

EDIT2: Regarding how good is Religious settlements – it grants you 110 production for free and instantly. But... so can a free worker with its 3 chops and proper policy cards. It really depends on what you need. If you need a settler anyway, the free one is the way to go. Otherwise, a free worker might be "worth more" since you can "chop in" anything, including the Ancestral Hall (for even more free workers).

 

[DeckerdJames]

Hi, I've recently decided to start trying to master the game at Deity level, I'm having a great time* but Imy a$$ is getting kicked esp from instant dislike neighbours whats the best way to ensure you can survive the initial storm on Deity level?

2 slingers rather than scouts so I can beeline Archery?
Go for Agoge or Maritime industries ASAP?

*I'm not a masochist but I'm loving the challenge

Remove half the players from the game so that you have more room, and time, in the beginning of the game. So try 6 players for a huge map. You and 5 opponents. Then add players back in if you want earlier challenges.

 

[Ordnael]

Interesting stuff. As soon as I finish this session with the Cree i am also planning go try deity. Not a jump as big as OP trying to make. I also advice trying Immortal first to learn how to deal with AI having 2 cities before you can pop...anything. Also good to practice some settler hunting...although by the posts above I realize that might be impossible.
I was thinking going Byzantine (mostly because I haven't play with them yet...I haven't played with half of the NFP civs yet) or go Roman (Cree music is too loud and I now I crave something more classic and melodic...also THE ROMAN EMPIRE!).
So the tip slinger slinger monument settler settler is solid then?
I rarely go above 4/5 cities middle game...I can't fathom settling without good resources around, I haven't tried maps bigger than standard though. I was thinking trying a huge with six players like posted above, I think the Nintendo Switch can manage that. I will also enable my 3 favourite modes: Secret Societies (love the vampires), Heroes and Legends and Monopolies and Corporations.