[GS] Mali Discussion Thread

[Giskler]

You'll be swimming in cash, only spending hammers on districts and wonders while buying everything else with faith & gold. They are super powerful.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

You'll be swimming in cash, only spending hammers on districts and wonders while buying everything else with faith & gold. They are super powerful.

With Reyna and Moshka you can buy districts too.

 

[Lord Lakely]

You and Lily are spot on. This production nerf is ROUGH. Why could it not be 15% instead of 30%? That's too much! Gold cannot replace production in the early game at all. It's just too early.

Oh this penality is actually perfectly fine. Mali's bonuses more than make up for it, just buy the lot at a discount. The penalty can be as big as 50% and it won't matter post-classical.

The problem *for me* is that the -1 production mining penalty Mali receive on top of it applies to all mines. Not just desert mines. Not just mines on resources. All mines. As such, settling outside of desert gives Mali a significant disadvantage compared to other civs, which is a restriction other assymetrical civs, such as Maori and Canada do not have. Mali have to rely on quarries, pastures and lumber mills to get their production, which is quite convoluted. The mining penalty is the one that needs to be changed imo, not the generic production one that applies to buyables.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Finally!!!
And for the record I am fine with that Commercial hub replacement as Sugaba means “big marketplace” in Mande.
With all that gold and faith I don’t mind the penalty for mine production. You can still build IZs around the mines.

 

[Sagax]

You'll be swimming in cash, only spending hammers on districts and wonders while buying everything else with faith & gold. They are super powerful.

If you survive early game. Depending on difficulty level, that can be a huge “if”. But then again, when will Deity players realize that the game has never been balanced around Deity or *gasp* Multiplayer.

 

[Arent11]

Somehow that merchant/religion vibe would IMHO have fitted Arabia.

 

[DJ_Tanner]

I'm pleased to see another asymmetric civ design, although this one doesn't cater to cultural Victories like I prefer.

I think culture may be their best VC. Like with everything Mali you have a slower start, but you should be able to slingshot past anyone with faster yields as you can flat buy all the buildings you need, and with Rome's culture grwoth since a monument in every city will be easy. No one wants to give up a great work, but with Mali you can make them an offer they can't refuse. With internal trade routes offering a great way to speed up internal empire growth. Then in the late game you already have a built-in faith economy allowing you to get parks and rock bands out the door quickly.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

The Suguba discounts will stack nicely with Theocracy and Democracy discounts.

 

[UWHabs]

Oh this penality is actually perfectly fine. Mali's bonuses more than make up for it, just buy the lot at a discount. The penalty can be as big as 50% and it won't matter post-classical.

The problem *for me* is that the -1 production mining penalty Mali receive on top of it applies to all mines. Not just desert mines. Not just mines on resources. All mines. As such, settling outside of desert gives Mali a significant disadvantage compared to other civs, which is a restriction other assymetrical civs, such as Maori and Canada do not have. Mali have to rely on quarries, pastures and lumber mills to get their production, which is quite convoluted. The mining penalty is the one that needs to be changed imo, not the generic production one that applies to buyables.

They get -1 on mines, but mines give +4 gold. Given that the general purchasing power in the game is 1 prod = 4 gold, you're really not any worse off for them. Especially once they get their purchasing economy started, then even that ends up being a bonus to them overall.

Basically, Mali doesn't care about production. They get enough penalty that I don't even know if it's worth it for them to build stuff like lumber mills. You just have to change your viewpoint, and realize that outside of the first 40-50 turns in the game, as Mali, you will simply never build anything useful again. They should simply always run projects, and simply move Reyna around to each city when it grows enough to need a new district.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I think culture may be their best VC. Like with everything Mali you have a slower start, but you should be able to slingshot past anyone with faster yields as you can flat buy all the buildings you need, and with Rome's culture grwoth since a monument in every city will be easy. No one wants to give up a great work, but with Mali you can make them an offer they can't refuse. With internal trade routes offering a great way to speed up internal empire growth. Then in the late game you already have a built-in faith economy allowing you to get parks and rock bands out the door quickly.

Religious Victories are going to be their strongest suit. They may not get that first Holy Site up quickly, but they should be able to straight up buy a Great Prophet once it is finished. Then they will have no trouble buying apostles.

Aside from that, they are quite generalist like other economic civs.

 

[DJ_Tanner]

Oh this penality is actually perfectly fine. Mali's bonuses more than make up for it, just buy the lot at a discount. The penalty can be as big as 50% and it won't matter post-classical.

The problem *for me* is that the -1 production mining penalty Mali receive on top of it applies to all mines. Not just desert mines. Not just mines on resources. All mines. As such, settling outside of desert gives Mali a significant disadvantage compared to other civs, which is a restriction other assymetrical civs, such as Maori and Canada do not have. Mali have to rely on quarries, pastures and lumber mills to get their production, which is quite convoluted. The mining penalty is the one that needs to be changed imo, not the generic production one that applies to buyables.

Sure the -1 Spacely Sprocket in on all mines, but so is the +4 gold. So if you settle outside of desert all you give up is the faith/food bonus to your city. You still are able to do what Mali does best, produce gold by the truckload.

 

[Lord Lakely]

You'll be swimming in cash, only spending hammers on districts and wonders while buying everything else with faith & gold. They are super powerful.

uuuuuuuuuuuuuuum.

I often faith buy units in my game (I play on King difficulty ftr), and I very often run out of faith. Late game armies can cost into the 2-3 thousands of gold and/or faith. the 20% discount is fantastic in itself, but it will bankrupt you very quickly, even if you make, say ~400 gold and faith per turn. That's why I'm not to hot on the "just buy everything!" gimmick, you can't. You will run out of money and faith, and then what?

of course, the irony is that, because gold and faith is the axis of the malinese economy, these yields become even more valuable than they normally are and you'll want to persue more. It's the Civ 6 equivalent of a cocaine addition, instead you're snorting gold dust and angel tears up your nozzle.

 

[Tiger Genocide]

If you survive early game. Depending on difficulty level, that can be a huge “if”. But then again, when will Deity players realize that the game has never been balanced around Deity or *gasp* Multiplayer.

Right the vast majority of people play alone on probably Prince difficulty. Even then, why make civs that are unplayable or significantly disadvantaged for Immortal/Deity and Multiplayer. Good design would mean that you could use them on all modes of play. I can still play a low tier civ on deity or an island map. I can also roll a low tier in multiplayer and still win with good fundamental game play. This is not really fair to Mali to have such a negative to early game. I bet they struggle mid and late game too. I would bet money nobody at Firaxis tried them on a hard difficulty level and they probably do not play each other hard/competitive when they do their multiplayer stuff.

This is like Capcom making a new character, never has a semi pro or pro tour player test it out. Oh wait... nevermind. I don't know where I was going with that. lol

 

[MrRadar]

You'll be swimming in cash, only spending hammers on districts and wonders while buying everything else with faith & gold. They are super powerful.

Well, in the game where production is King, Musa might just not be able to keep his crown up until the point where he just buys the world. Until he gets his first HSs and adjacent Sugabas on rivers, he's very vulnerable. He'll be praying for (semi-)isolated starts to have some time to climb out of the rather steep starting hole. On TSL I see Amanitore eating him alive every game.

 

[steveg700]

I'm pleased to see another asymmetric civ design, although this one doesn't cater to cultural Victories like I prefer.

Well, a civ doesn't have to offer direct boosts to tourism to cater to cultural victories.

Anything that lets a player deploy districts and buildings faster can cater to a victory condition. Inca was an instance of getting more production, while Mali uses faith and gold for direct purchasing power.

 

[Tiger Genocide]

uuuuuuuuuuuuuuum.

I often faith buy units in my game (I play on King difficulty ftr), and I very often run out of faith. Late game armies can cost into the 2-3 thousands of gold and/or faith. the 20% discount is fantastic in itself, but it will bankrupt you very quickly, even if you make, say ~400 gold and faith per turn. That's why I'm not to hot on the "just buy everything!" gimmick, you can't. You will run out of money and faith, and then what?

of course, the irony is that, because gold and faith is the axis of the malinese economy, these yields become even more valuable than they normally are and you'll want to persue more. It's the Civ 6 equivalent of a cocaine addition, instead you're snorting gold dust and angel tears up your nozzle.

That's the problem in this thread. Everyone's excuse for this civ is just "buy it". Well this game is not 1:1 when it comes down to gold and production. The math does not add up like that. Also there is that problem of buying things like builders and settlers cost increasing everytime you buy one. OOPS!

Unless you can get 400-500 GPT by the time you get knights, this Civ is probably going to fail.

 

[bbbt]

Move over Russia and Indonesia, we've got a new "first choice of pantheon" civ. First city in the desert and it's basically yours.

I share concerns about the production malus from mines, as there are a lot of steps to jump through before you can faith/gold buy districts or the like. I have a feeling Mali won't be terribly flexible in a lot of it's choices (if you found a religion (good luck getting those early holy sites up with no production), you are going for jesuit education. First governor tiles are all going to faith/gold buy districts, etc. I feel like they should have been given the ability to buy districts from the get go or something like that.

Also I was very confident - and apparently very wrong - that the unique CD would be the Ottomans.

 

[DJ_Tanner]

Well, in the game where production is King, Musa might just not be able to keep his crown up until the point where he just buys the world. Until he gets his first HSs and adjacent Sugabas on rivers, he's very vulnerable. He'll be praying for (semi-)isolated starts to have some time to climb out of the rather steep starting hole. On TSL I see Amanitore eating him alive every game.

TSL aside, for the most part that is exactly how it will be. Mali is going to be tucked away in the desert somewhere there is little incentive to explore/expand into that in the early game for most civs. And if they did, Mali's cities are straight garbage for literally anyone else, so they offer little incentive to waste resources on as well as being particularly annoying to take since a Mali army will just appear out of nowhere since, everything is paid for.

Mali does have a slower start, and will take a little time to get their engine running, but once they do they are a formidable foe. Outside a deliberate hunt by a super fast early civ or a super unlucky barb roll (and really all civs struggle when facing these conditions) I don't see Mali having all that much trouble surviving the early game and are given all the tools needed to slingshot into the lead.

 

[steveg700]

Meh. Some civ's have early benefits, and some don't. The latter are generally concerned about the former as neighbors.

Some players see Civ as having a single vanilla playstyle and civ's are deemed strong or weak based on how well they compliment the accepted approach. My interest is always piqued when such players are derisive or dismayed.

I wonder if the AI code will look at Mali's desert city and deem it to even be worth the effort to conquer.....unless, of course, it's going dom.

 

[Nikolai II]

I'm not a fan of desert tiles getting less production, it'd really hit you if you settler a city which is all desert. Though I suppose if your city is part desert it's not too bad.

I have a suspicion this civ is not meant to produce anything, just buy it.