[GS] Mali Discussion Thread

[Disgustipated]

Okay Sarah says that the unique district gets a major adjacency bonus from rivers (commercial hubs already get +2 so this looks exactly the same), and holy sites (in the video it is +2). Isn't major adjacency +1? In the video she's getting +2. I'm not sure why she mentioned rivers, since this seems exactly the same as commercial hubs. She's getting +2 from the river in the video.

 

[UWHabs]

They look really really strong if they get a couple desert cities. They will be swimming in gold like Scrooge McDuck.

Spoiler :

They won't be nearly as strong on non-desert land and will be weak early on with the production penalty.

Looks like a fun civ. They may be my 2nd new civ to play after the Moari.

They tie in really nice together:
-If you start with all desert tiles, your city naturally gets +6 food and +6 faith. That food, combined with the little extra from granary/water mill/etc... is enough to get you to size 4. As Mansa, I don't think I ever want to grow a city past size 4.
-Assuming you get desert folklore, if you have a city centre-CH-Holy site triangle around all desert with the CH on a river, that's a +5 CH, a +7 holy site. You never have to worry about either of them meeting the minimum requirements to run the policy cards
-International traders get +1 gold from flat desert tiles. Which means early game, when your trader usually only gets 3 gold from a route to a CS, will now be getting more like +7 or +8 gold. That's a lot of gold early
-However, it means they don't run internal trade routes, meaning they don't get the production bonuses from there.

Other important parts of their strategy:
-Mansa should never build an industrial zone. It's completely useless to him
-He should only ever have to build 1 encampment, as all units can be purchased from there as necessary
-He'll have enough money to buy whatever GP he needs, which as mentioned, give bonus era score. They definitely want to run golden ages since traders are very valuable
-They are definitely hurt by the change to commercial city-states splitting their bonuses between commerce hubs and harbors. They synergize with a lot of city-states too - all of the trade ones, and even others like Hong Kong (since they don't build other things, I can imagine running a lot of projects) and all the ones that give UI (since they need something to throw down on desert tiles).

He also gets the edge that nobody else likes desert to settle in, but he can settle anywhere in the desert he wants, since he probably doesn't really care if his cities grow. Even a size-1 desert city is going to be valuable to him for the faith and trade routes alone.

 

[bite]

Also you beet Indonesia to that first pantheon

 

[UWHabs]

Okay Sarah says that the unique district gets a major adjacency bonus from rivers (commercial hubs already get +2 so this looks exactly the same), and holy sites (in the video it is +2). Isn't major adjacency +1? In the video she's getting +2. I'm not sure why she mentioned rivers, since this seems exactly the same as commercial hubs. She's getting +2 from the river in the video.

Major = +2. Normal(?) = +1. Minor = +1/2.
So yeah, the only extra bonus is the +2 for adjacent to a holy site.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

I'll ask this: Is Mali liking desert and money the same kind of "stereotype" that people seem to not like about Canada?

 

[bite]

I'll ask this: Is Mali liking desert and money the same kind of "stereotype" that people seem to not like about Canada?

Well we don't know what he 'likes' yet, but they were a empire founded on desert trade route, so it fits, and yet they could have gone the science or faith route, but they are all equally fine interpretations of the empire

 

[Alexadamz]

They just made me purchase the game right now! It is not the meta, but Mali fits the kind of gameplay I enjoy. I just won one Gilga's game with this faith-purchase strategy. I played on YnAMPs Giant Earth, on Emperor, and Sumeria starts close to lots of CS. Babylon is so close that their settler can't settle because of my first city, and so i just got there and captured it, and also Jerusalem settler because AI was dumb as hell and moved closer to Antioch and couldn't settle too. That made be have 3 cities by turn 5 or so, and the AI didn't even had an advantage anymore. Then I spammed war carts and looked for closer neighbors, but all AI was too far, and I turtled my way. I went for Reliquaries belief and suserained Kandy and right then it was a massacre. I got Grand Master's Chapel and could buy everything every turn. Just too cheap. I was in fact aiming for a Cultural Victory, but ended going for Domination anyway with my faith bought army. I just imagine how it could have gone were I playing with Mansa Musa. I like that kind of gameplay.

 

[bite]

Yes, will let you know if he replies

Okay well it is 230am and I am going to be, I will let you know tomorrow if there is any news

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I'll ask this: Is Mali liking desert and money the same kind of "stereotype" that people seem to not like about Canada?

It's based on actual historical economic data, not pop culture perceptions.

 

[Tiger Genocide]

Alright, I’ll keep it real with you chiefs—I think this Civ is probably going to be bad. The production maluses are going to set you so far back in the early game that it doesn’t matter how much stuff you can buy once you get that unique commercial hub up.
If you get rolling, then yeah, this Civ could be very strong in a unique way, but I think this is easily the worst of the revealed Civs thus far. A little disappointed because they’re a cool design, but I think the cons of the Civ make them not really work.
Maori > Hungary > Inca > Canada > Mali

You and Lily are spot on. This production nerf is ROUGH. Why could it not be 15% instead of 30%? That's too much! Gold cannot replace production in the early game at all. It's just too early.

If in the Atomic/Information era you need 14 turns /w production discount card to build a corp of tanks and it will take 14 turns, it will take you 18? Oh man that sucks!

Oh no problem, use faith/Theocracy and buy your army early and upgrade them all. Ok maybe that might work once you hit mid game.

Here's my problem with this. Why do they insist on making these civs with NEGATIVE early game weaknesses? This is a game of snowball!!! If I am negative on turn one, how can I swallow my neighbor? Like Lily said, how can I defend against barbs? If you get a horse barb train from turn 5 on Deity/Immortal, that's an automatic re-roll. These guys are gonna have to take a nearby city state just to keep up.

I don't think anyone at Firaxis is good at playing this game. Has anyone in that office played a Deity game with Mali? Were they able to catch up and win?

Usually a civ with tons of money can do a fast science victory, by buying the great scientists. You need 25-30K-ish gold but if you had negative production and bought buildings/units all game instead of saving your gold, how will you have enough to buy all the proper great people in time before the AIs grab them? Spreading your religion with Mali is a waste of faith unless you are aiming for religious victory, so be prepared to get yours washed out, because you have to hoard it for rush buying.

I refuse to play this one on multiplayer. That's too much of an early game nerf to justify it. Being Mali = come kill me on turn one because I can never hope and dream enough to match your heavy chariot pain train.

This version of Civ, is not like Civ 5 BNW vanilla, it's more like Civ5 Vox Populi, where production is better than science. People used to lament regular Civ 5 in that Science was better than anything else in the game. Okay. Now Production is king in Civ 6. Then you make a civ with negative production? Come on....

 

[OzzyKP]

Looks like a great civ. I really like the civs that have a drawback.

I also love that they gave Mali bonuses on desert that weren't something stupid like being able to build farms on desert.

 

[Larsenex]

The New Calvary unit requires 20-Horses. Will resources on the map be depleted and will they 'respawn' in other locations on the map?

 

[Mr Jon of Cheam]

No idea if they'll be any good, hard to tell, but I like that they're different and they'll surely be fun to play if you're not too bothered about the optimal route to victory. I like gold.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

No idea if they'll be any good, hard to tell, but I like that they're different and they'll surely be fun to play if you're not too bothered about the optimal route to victory. I like gold.

BUT YOU CANT USE THEM TO SHAVE SIX TURNS OFF YOUR SCIENCE VICTORY

 

[pgm123]

Alright, I’ll keep it real with you chiefs—I think this Civ is probably going to be bad. The production maluses are going to set you so far back in the early game that it doesn’t matter how much stuff you can buy once you get that unique commercial hub up.
If you get rolling, then yeah, this Civ could be very strong in a unique way, but I think this is easily the worst of the revealed Civs thus far. A little disappointed because they’re a cool design, but I think the cons of the Civ make them not really work.
Maori > Hungary > Inca > Canada > Mali

We'll see if the balance gets changed. The first looks are not final.

 

[Disgustipated]

I certainly hope they get a river start bias in addition to desert start bias. Or they will really be hurting.

 

[UWHabs]

You and Lily are spot on. This production nerf is ROUGH. Why could it not be 15% instead of 30%? That's too much! Gold cannot replace production in the early game at all. It's just too early.

If in the Atomic/Information era you need 14 turns /w production discount card to build a corp of tanks and it will take 14 turns, it will take you 18? Oh man that sucks!

Oh no problem, use faith/Theocracy and buy your army early and upgrade them all. Ok maybe that might work once you hit mid game.

Here's my problem with this. Why do they insist on making these civs with NEGATIVE early game weaknesses? This is a game of snowball!!! If I am negative on turn one, how can I swallow my neighbor? Like Lily said, how can I defend against barbs? If you get a horse barb train from turn 5 on Deity/Immortal, that's an automatic re-roll. These guys are gonna have to take a nearby city state just to keep up.

I don't think anyone at Firaxis is good at playing this game. Has anyone in that office played a Deity game with Mali? Were they able to catch up and win?

Usually a civ with tons of money can do a fast science victory, by buying the great scientists. You need 25-30K-ish gold but if you had negative production and bought buildings/units all game instead of saving your gold, how will you have enough to buy all the proper great people in time before the AIs grab them? Spreading your religion with Mali is a waste of faith unless you are aiming for religious victory, so be prepared to get yours washed out, because you have to hoard it for rush buying.

I refuse to play this one on multiplayer. That's too much of an early game nerf to justify it. Being Mali = come kill me on turn one because I can never hope and dream enough to match your heavy chariot pain train.

This version of Civ, is not like Civ 5 BNW vanilla, it's more like Civ5 Vox Populi, where production is better than science. People used to lament regular Civ 5 in that Science was better than anything else in the game. Okay. Now Production is king in Civ 6. Then you make a civ with negative production? Come on....

Oh, for sure they're not balanced in multi-player. Virtually impossible to win with them, I would guess.

For single-player, it's hard to say whether the turn-1 faith/food bonus from the city-centre makes up for the lack of production. It's going to be a dreadfully slow start for them, and as mentioned, you have to pray that your AI neighbours don't decide to pick on you, since it's hard enough fighting off a horde. I could see them be stronger if they gave them an extra bonus - maybe give their units +5 combat strength in deserts? If they added that, that would probably be enough extra that you can survive the assault until your gold empire comes online.

 

[DJ_Tanner]

Really excited to play Mali. They look great and require a change in how you play. A slow start for sure, but since you aren't really competing for the same territory as other civs that should offset nicely. And in the late game you are a flexible beast, people here seem to be forgetting that Mali is going to have A LOT of trade routes (the same trade routes that have been nerfed so many times in the past), those give any yield you need and tons of gold. A little more more micromanagement is required, but worth it for such a different route to victory.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I certainly hope they get a river start bias in addition to desert start bias. Or they will really be hurting.

Desert start biases usually plop you next to a fresh water source of one kind or another.

 

[Zaarin]

Hmm, not a fan of this one, though I can't really point to anything and say, "That's why I don't like this civ." I think they'll be the civ I play right before Canada...