Maniac1 - OBC Babylon Space Race

Ouch on the Hittite fiasco. We'll manage, but that's gonna have long term implications that aren't pretty. Then again, the Zulu situation is quite far from pretty as well :p

Has anyone noticed that overall, in just about every SG game running, the rep is trashed or has come this close -->| |<-- to being trashed? Either folks are downplaying the risks associated with trade deals or aren't aware of the consequences of letting an active trade go sour.

Got it, but won't get to it until tomorrow night at the earliest.
Charis
 
Just wondering, but how did your reputation get trashed? I was rereading the logs and couldn't find out why. :confused: Where did a connection get broken?


Edit: Never mind, figured it out. Harran. Stupid reason to get a trashed reputation, but..c'est la vie. Now I'm back to lurking. :)
 
Smellincoffee, our rep got trashed because we made a 20 turn deal with a civ that did not last the full 20 turns. Because we did not "deliver" the good for a full 20 turns, we lost our rep.

This is a flaw in the trade system. We did nothing to break our deal. But it was broken so we lose our rep. It is not fair and this "feature" is a detraction from the enjoyment of the game.

Firaxis knows about it, but they dont have the manpower to fix what is actually a very difficult programing task to correct.
 
Originally posted by ToddMarshall
We have an extra spice laying arround so i ship it to the Zulu for what they'll pay, which is 7gpt and 8g.
These are the kind of deals that kill reputations. If the deal was spices for 7gpt, straight up, you have no problem. Both sides are per turn and if one gets cancelled, so does the other. But throw in the hard goods, in this case 8g, and now you are breaking a deal. I don't think the 8g or a TM (as it often is) is worth the threat of the ruined rep. Of course the destroyed Civ is a different topic all together, but it's so tough to tell who will be around in 20 turns. Anyways, just this lurker's $.02
 
Well Charis I was fully aware of the risk on that trade of course but I had to take my chances, the Hittites were still pretty strong (stronger than many other civs) and the dogpile was non-existent; in those extreme games we have to take more risks than in a normal game.
As Ridgelake pointed out we desperately needed the workers but more importantly we need to keep the other civs alive in this game and getting them horses was an attempt to that effect.
I took a risky gamble and it failed, I know that many other players would have not taken it so I apologize to the team for such risky play :sad:
 
Skyfish, no problem on the outcome or the taking of risk. I"m just pointing out that, on a whole, the rep smash or threat of rep smash has come up in almost every SG I'm in or even watching right now. Folks need to be more aware of this possibility, I just don't know if there's something Conquest specific that is causing this to happen more often. If you wanted to let them have horses to survive, just gift it to them. Speaker is dead-on-target with his general comment - tossing in a tiny 'hard' item along with a gpt item is what is playing fast and loose with ones rep. If you say we want the workers, we can pay in cash for one with a separate deal, and still give away the horses. The cash might help them rush something.

We'll deal with it just fine, the risk was your call and a reasonable one at the time, so let's not see any more "boo-boo lip" taking it hard posts, eh? What doesn't kill us makes us stronger. :lol:

Charis
 
Skyfish, I would not sweat it too much. You made a conscious, rational decision. Hindsight is always 20/20. As it turns out, we will be the tech leader in this game and everyone will be paying us gpt to keep up.

On another subject, I would not be surprised to see Charis bring the world into a dogpile on the Zulus. They are already at war with the Mongols and Portugese on diametrically opposite fronts. I suspect that the Incans could be brought into a dogpile with some tech...... Now if that big Zulu stack of about 10 MDIs moved away from Olla.....
 
Just a note. I don't often take chump change with gpt but when the civ im trading to is 50% of the world and would probably not only survive a full AI dogpile but win, then I don't think twice about squeezing them for everything they will pay.

I also thought about suggesting a full dogpile vs the Zulu now, but there are 3 problems.

1) We cant declare on them, though im fairly ceartian they declare on us if we aske them to get out

2) If we ask them to get out with that huge stack sitting next to our city we are in serious trouble

3) The Inca are currently allied with the zulu in a war and may not join us vs them period.

As for us being the tech leaders, I dono about that. I expect the Zulu will be the tech leaders. Their core lands are pretty crappy, and their acquired lands underdeveloped, but that will improve. Nevertheless, it does appear we are going to have to do our own research, especially if Portugal gets in trouble. The Inca and Mongols are in really bad shape with only 4 cities, and I'm sure will lag in tech (the only reason the mongols are caught up is because they own the GL). If a way appears for us to build Cop or Newtons in Babylon, we should do so.
 
The dogpile is actually quite a tough question. If the Zulus were significantly more peaceful and not in any wars, one could let them coexist for a while and let them bear the brunt of front-line research while we have good trade opportunities.

The problem with them being BOTH very large and so aggressive is that brining in a nation into a dogpile runs the risk of seeing the Zulus swallow that nation and becoming more of a monster. I agree with Todd's analysis -- the Zulus will surely be the tech, score and power leader for the game.

Why does one dogpile?
i) Because your army alone is so puny that you hope a few serious contenders can distract a bigger foe so that you can win a limited war against them.
ii) Because you fear the big foe brining in significant allies against you as you fight them
iii) Because you plan to be at war for a full 20 turns anyway and want a little extra help as your decently strong army puts a real hurting on the big foe.
iv) You hope war weariness will throw a leading foe into Communism where he self-implodes

We see situation 2 in many games, but not this one. There is no credible foe to the Zulu. We're closest at this point to situation 1, except there is no other big-stick to pull in. We're not at this point in time in situation 4. And we're certainly not strong enough 'now' to see it as situation 3.

In other words, I'm not sure the time is right. Given the one-dominant foe style of game, the right time would seem to be:
i) in an era of defensive-dominance, so that the Zulu do not in fact swallow up another civ but instead beat their head against a brick wall (if instead we called for a dogpile when Zulu cav go against a civ and take their saltpeter, that civ is *toast*)
ii) right after they get Communism
In fact, i and ii combine in the age between infantry and tanks.
The span after muskets become common, and knights are the attackers, is at least an equal strength period.

Any other comments? It will be interesting to see the saltpeter situation once we get gunpowder -- that might impact our course.

Charis
 
Well, I wrote up a nice lengthy discussion and my computer ate it. :grr:

Shaka has no horses. So no cavs. He has a lot of salt, and is probably the only nation that can export it. He is sending us some now as part of a tech deal.

We are sending the Mongols some horses. So they can make their UU and start their GA. Their iron got pillaged but we can ship them some in a couple of turns when our second supply is hooked up.

The portugese have all resources I believe. At least iron and salt.

Not sure about the Incans. I would be surprised, however, if a couple of techs would not bring them into a dogpile against the Zulus.

Are we ready to fight Shaka right now? No. We need more prep. Can we get into position to fight a defensive war fairly soon? I think so. With movement advantages of fighting on your own terrain, knights and longbows can chew up MDIs, the Zulu unit of choice. Even if protected by a musket or two, we can win a majority of those encounters.

There is a window here where we will can have knights on muskets and MDIs. Neither us, nor Shaka will get cavs. So the window is open until rifles.

My main concern is that Shaka will cut into either the Mongols or Portugal. That would severely cripple either. So getting a war with Shaka sooner rather than later would be done to protect the other nations. Alone, they will probably fall. Together, we might set Shaka back.
 
I start by looking at the score histogram. The Zulus don't look like
a gorilla. Then I look at the power graph :eek:
We're actually strong compared to Mongols and Portugal? Too bad for them!
Avg with Incas, weak to Zulus. The whole world is a Republic. We've got 12 Bowmen,
6 pikes, 3 muskets, and 9 Ancient Cav. (Zeus expires with Metallurgy)
The Mongols lack Iron, and are down to 4 cities. They're toasty toast. Portugal has six cities
and lacks BOTH horses AND iron. They're toasty toast. Incans are down to four cities.
They're toast. Zulu have 17 cities. Er... *ALL* civs except us and the Zulus are toast!!
That's whether or not we do anything. There's one think I notice however...

The Zulus lack horses!? No offensive unit better than an MDI. The other visible horses
are with the Incans, who are not fighting the Zulu at present. Another issue. We have no
saltpeter, but we're importing it for the next 19 turns from the Zulu!

Tech? We're only down Chemistry.

Given that we lack our own saltpeter, I don't want to hit Zulu now. By end of turn I might
have more rax done and all cities started on Knights which would at least give that option
to the next leader.

[0] 50 - MM tiles at Kazan so its granary will complete just before it grows. Ditto Tu-Tu.
Olla considers swapping from granary to Knight, but instead MM's tile to complete granary
quicker. Babylon swaps to Knight to give us at least one to be 'feared' :p

IBT Lisbon of Portugal completes the Knight's templar! Thank goodness it's not the Zulu.
Can this save them?! Incas swap to Sistine. The Zulu SOD moves away from our cities.

[1] 70 - Tiwa worker-->aqueduct. Kazan granary-->rax. IBT lots of ZUlu movement.
[2] 90 - I think almost every one of our cities just expanded a border, nice.
That salt in Zulu land just outside Almarkh mocks us. T'would be nice indeed if *Zimbabwe*
itself could be razed!!! That would really sting for the Zulus, and would get us saltpeter
back. One turn one we could put ALL our fast units on a mountain next to Zimbabwe, and
raze it the next turn, re-gaining use of saltpeter. I would make that our objective if we
ever did go to war with Zulu. If we're going to hurt them, what better way than to raze
their capital! IBT Zimbabwe finishes Leo's! If we razed the city it would destroy both
the workshop and the Great wall too!! :) Portuguese shift to Sistine.
[3] 110 - Babylon Knight-->Musket. Olla granary-->cth. IBT Lagos of Port falls to Zulu.
[4] 130 - I upgrade three pikes to Muskets while we have the salt. Should be enough for a while.
[6] 170 - Babylon Musket-->Longbow. Ta-Tu Granary to rax. Tiwanaku hits WLTKD.
[7] 190 - IBT It's painful to watch the Incas and Mongols slug it out while Zulus fight Portugal
unhindered. The Zulus capture another Portuguese city this turn.
[8] 210 - zzz
[9] 230 - More zzz.
[10] 250 - Education is due next turn. Portugal (like Incans and Mongols) are down to four cities.
Zulus have two dozen MDI and longbow heading for Guimares, it will fall next.
That's about it. We're due for infrastructure improvements to finish soon, with an option
for our next leader of Universities next all around, or knights/muskets. Lots of good
choices next for Tech at 10-15 turns each, and a possible Education-Chem trade with Zulu.

Matt_G <-- UP NOW
meldor <-- On Deck
Skyfish <-- In the hole
Maniac <-- Betwixt the warp core
Ridgelake <-- On the bench
Charis <-- On the mend

Maniac1-250AD Save

Good luck! :hammer:
Charis

PS Ridgelake - didn't see your comments til after turn. Good idea for iron to Mongols,
now that the extra just got hooked up. Just don't take hard goods for it :p
It'll be an option in around 10 turns to go to war with ZUlu. I would still advocate a
turn-two razing of Zimbabwe for maximum punishment. If we do go to war, it would be to save
Portugal, and specifically, the Knights Templar. GOod luck, Matt_G.
 
Well, that turn went about like I thought it might. Now that education is coming in, I think that I would cut back on research to make gold for rushing things. Both pikes to muskets, bowmen to longbows and improvements.

It would not take too many turns for us to get enough money to rush unis everywhere if they are worked while building cash.

It sounds like we are too late to save Portugal. On the other hand, a lot of Zulu military is over there. Do we dare use the opportunity to catch the Zulus with much of their forces many turns away? Hit quickly (Zimbabwe) and make peace before they can respond in force? If so, we better swap over to all knights. Attacking fortified muskets in a town that is on a hill (I think) will require a LOT of attack units.

Edit: Charis, sorry that I didnt make a bigger note regarding the MMing of the towns on the last turn. I noticed that you re-allocated Kazan and Olla. They were arranged based upon the chops completing next turn. My bad for not pointing that out better.

Regarding hitting Zimbabwe. It might be a good idea to investigate the city. It will be a hell of a fight if we bring 9 ACs and about half a dozen knights on to it..... Investigating will give us a clue about whether that would be enough force....

It also might make sense to skim workers from Babylon. IIRC, it is at a net 21 spt. Moving to 1 additional food should still leave it at 20spt. And we will need more workers.
 
> Now that education is coming in, I think that I would cut back
> on research to make gold for rushing things. Both pikes to
> muskets, bowmen to longbows and improvements.
> It sounds like we are too late to save Portugal. On the other
> hand, a lot of Zulu military is over there. Do we dare use the
> opportunity to catch the Zulus with much of their forces many
> turns away? Hit quickly (Zimbabwe) and make peace before
> they can respond in force?

Yes indeed, if we wait for the 2, 3, 4? dozen *slow* units to come home and then decide to declare war, it would be daft. And yes, I like the idea of investigating first. If so, it's still a tough question on dogpile. I would strongly consider *NOT* dogpiling them for two reasons: i) we would love Zulus to make peace with Portugal asap, not in 20turns; ii) we might very much need to make peace before 20 turns, so no alliances at all would give us freedom to say when to stop. If the Zulus stopped their assault, ran back home too late to stop us from razing Zimbabwe and maybe 1-2 core cities, we got salt, and if as a result the Zulus never end up getting horses, what a glorious coup that would be. Mil Tradition would be payback time in a huge way for them.

> Charis, sorry that I didnt make a bigger note regarding
> the MMing of the towns on the last turn. I noticed that you
> re-allocated Kazan and Olla. They were arranged based upon
> the chops completing next turn. My bad for not pointing that
> out better.

Actually, I MM'd, wrote the notes, then saw the chopping, saw it due, and re-arragned again. For example, got the NW granary with no shield waste on the next turn.

Charis
 
I see it, but it may be Thurs. or Fri. before I can play it.

Work is being a b**ch right now.
 
One thing to remember. We CAN NOT declare war on the zulu. Our varient rules prohibit it. If we want war with the Zulu, we have to induce them to declare on us. They currently have no units in our territory so we can't demand them out to kick it off. Unless they wander in in the next turn or 2 I think we lost our window for war with them for a while, because I'm guessing that 4 dozen is the closest guess to the size of their "spare units"
 
Hey guys, sorry about this but I have to drop from this game.

Work gave myself and 2 of my co-workers a nice Christmas present today. :rolleyes:
They laid my co-workers off and then told me I have to do their work in addition to my own.
These people are out of their tiny friggin minds. :saiyan:

As a result, I'm not going to have time to play Civ at all. What little time I have, will now be spent looking for another job.

Apologies to all concerned.
Matt
 
:eek: Lovely 8-<

Sorry to hear that Matt. I wish you luck in finding a better company and job where your effort is challenging, fun, and valued by the company!

:)
Charis

PS The Zulu are in for trouble now, as meldor is up next, followed by Skyfish.
 
My flu doesn't want to go away. I'm not going to be arround till at least sat afternoon.

By my thinking the Zulu are now too powerful for us until we get rifles, or a big stack of cannons, but hey, I'm a builder more than a warrior so I could be mistaken in that. I honestly think that as far behind as all the other civs are we can win this game w/o having to go after the zulu, though FOR SURE we need to be able to defend ourselves. No other AI civ is going to be able to research worth a darn, and the AI doesn't do very well when faced with researching alone. Plus the Zulu will spend ages chasing all the wonder techs that we can ignore. Combine this with researching the ignored techs (medicine/sanitation/clads) and with ToE and we should be fine at least till the modern era.

@Matt - That sucks. Been there, done that. GL and hopefully you will be able to find annother job swiftly.

@all - Regarding the forthcoming patch. Do NOT patch this game until I'm sure the patch works for whatever version Skyfish has and until we have a couple days to make sure that this patch doesnt screw up something even more signifigant than the gpt issue (FP being mostly a non issue in this game since only the Zulu will ever be able to build one).
 
I investigate Zimbabwe. It has 11 muskets and 1 trebuchet. I don't think all our 11 AC and 1 Knight stand a chance. So I resign myself to 10 builder's turns.

The Zulu have 30 units near the last two Portuguese cities. The Portugal and Inca sign peace. We get Education and start Astronomy.

Portugal makes peace with the Zulu when they are down to on OCC. The Mongols get horses and Iron for Gems, maybe they will stick around.

The saltpeter deal with the Zulu is over. I don't have enough cash to buy it again and I decline giveing them Lux.

We can't buy Chemistry for love nor money. We are five turns away from Astronomy. Babylon has been building Sistine as a prebuild. Uni's are about to build or have alreay been built in all cities except the Capital.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/Maniac1-350AD.zip
 
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