Maori Warrior Review

[Stalker0]

The MW was noted as a potential "F" in our initial balance review. In this thread, feel free to discuss this unit specifically.

 

[pineappledan]

Sounds like the current idea is increase CS to 22, and increase haka war dance to -15% to adjacent units.

It's an improvement, but it's a bit bland. There's no need to make the unit overly powerful given that polynesia does well enough even when ignoring their UU, but this will at least keep the unit from being obviously worse than base units.

Another nice thing is this differentiates haka dance from feared elephant. The two were identical before

 

[Hinin]

I'll repost what I just said in the "Final Tunin: The "F" stuff" thread.

Spoiler Answer :

Let's not forget the effect of the Polynesian UI on the MW : all Polynesian units within 3 tiles of a Moai gain +20 % CS. I think that, because the Moai aren't the kind of UI you don't build whenever you have the occasion, this bonus will be seen almost all the time in defensive wars (not like, for example, the Iroquois combat bonus near natural wonders, which is rarely seen, except when you steal a good spot from another civilization just so you can have a NW).

I think the reason why the MW hasn't got some boost to its base combat strenght in the past is because of this.
For example, with this bonus, a MW will have a better fight against a knight than a pikemen (24 v 22.5 for the MW / 25.5 v 25 for the Pikeman), and will beat a Longswordman pretty easily (24 v 18), or even a Samurai (24 vs 21.6).
However, when some promotions come into account, the superior base strength of the Knight and the Samurai will make them superior in the long term against the MW (which compensate the fact that these units are more expensive and require strategic resources).
So, to me, the MW is at its best as a defensive "militia" unit : if your opponents try to invade your islands, this unit can be brought to the field quite quickly, and will provide some good power for its price, when combined with the Moai that is : have your Moai pillaged, or obtain this unit through a CS, and it will be clearly subpar when compared to most unique units.

There are several ways, to my mind, to give a wee more punch to the unit (trying to keep it simple, since "passive abilities aren't AI friendly") :
- reinforce this "defensive militia" aspect by reducing the production cost of the unit a bit (they weren't as equipped as the typical Pikemen after all)
- increase the effect of the "Haka war dance" promotion : -15 % CS seems indeed a good amount. The only thing that bothers me is that the "Feared elephant" promotion already suffers from the fact it is always lost on upgrade, so making the "HWD" promotion have a more powerful effect will definitively bury the "FE" promotion as the "weaker" version. Maybe we could try to find something to make the two promotion a little bit more different (difference in aura size, in the types of units affected... I'm just throwing ideas)
- simply increase the base combat strength of the unit (knowing that it will increase the effect of the bonus from the Moai) : it will force us to buff the Shotelai and the Goedendag a bit, @pineappledan, so that they stay relevant. I'm not really fond of this idea, since as I said the bonus of the Moai already make the unit quite strong (in terms of power/price ratio).
I would be for a mix of the first two ideas : to me, the unit only needs a bit more love (at least to be of some use as a gifted unit), no a flat out buff to base combat strenght.

 

[ElliotS]

I'll repost what I just said in the "Final Tunin: The "F" stuff" thread.

Spoiler Answer :

Let's not forget the effect of the Polynesian UI on the MW : all Polynesian units within 3 tiles of a Moai gain +20 % CS. I think that, because the Moai aren't the kind of UI you don't build whenever you have the occasion, this bonus will be seen almost all the time in defensive wars (not like, for example, the Iroquois combat bonus near natural wonders, which is rarely seen, except when you steal a good spot from another civilization just so you can have a NW).

I think the reason why the MW hasn't got some boost to its base combat strenght in the past is because of this.
For example, with this bonus, a MW will have a better fight against a knight than a pikemen (24 v 22.5 for the MW / 25.5 v 25 for the Pikeman), and will beat a Longswordman pretty easily (24 v 18), or even a Samurai (24 vs 21.6).
However, when some promotions come into account, the superior base strength of the Knight and the Samurai will make them superior in the long term against the MW (which compensate the fact that these units are more expensive and require strategic resources).
So, to me, the MW is at its best as a defensive "militia" unit : if your opponents try to invade your islands, this unit can be brought to the field quite quickly, and will provide some good power for its price, when combined with the Moai that is : have your Moai pillaged, or obtain this unit through a CS, and it will be clearly subpar when compared to most unique units.

There are several ways, to my mind, to give a wee more punch to the unit (trying to keep it simple, since "passive abilities aren't AI friendly") :
- reinforce this "defensive militia" aspect by reducing the production cost of the unit a bit (they weren't as equipped as the typical Pikemen after all)
- increase the effect of the "Haka war dance" promotion : -15 % CS seems indeed a good amount. The only thing that bothers me is that the "Feared elephant" promotion already suffers from the fact it is always lost on upgrade, so making the "HWD" promotion have a more powerful effect will definitively bury the "FE" promotion as the "weaker" version. Maybe we could try to find something to make the two promotion a little bit more different (difference in aura size, in the types of units affected... I'm just throwing ideas)
- simply increase the base combat strength of the unit (knowing that it will increase the effect of the bonus from the Moai) : it will force us to buff the Shotelai and the Goedendag a bit, @pineappledan, so that they stay relevant. I'm not really fond of this idea, since as I said the bonus of the Moai already make the unit quite strong (in terms of power/price ratio).
I would be for a mix of the first two ideas : to me, the unit only needs a bit more love (at least to be of some use as a gifted unit), no a flat out buff to base combat strenght.

Let's compare that to the Caroleon or the Impis. Both Sweden and Zulu buff all the units in their line, but despite that both the Caroleon and Impis are much, much stronger than their base units. I would take the military bonuses of Sweden or the Zulu over the CS granted by the Maoi, and yet the Moai Warrior is much weaker than the other UUs.

There's a central problem with the unit design, that we need to grapple with. They're a UU, the cream of the crop for a civ, that's a replacement of a unit meant to replace Pikemen. Pikemen are a backup unit. They're not meant to be a shiny star.

Spoiler It's like putting a spoiler on a junker car. :

So my solution is to make them a unit that can fight at the level of longsword UUs. It's not the best solution, but honestly I don't think there's a great solution outside of redesigning the whole unit.

 

[Gazebo]

Let's compare that to the Caroleon or the Impis. Both Sweden and Zulu buff all the units in their line, but despite that both the Caroleon and Impis are much, much stronger than their base units. I would take the military bonuses of Sweden or the Zulu over the CS granted by the Maoi, and yet the Moai Warrior is much weaker than the other UUs.

There's a central problem with the unit design, that we need to grapple with. They're a UU, the cream of the crop for a civ, that's a replacement of a unit meant to replace Pikemen. Pikemen are a backup unit. They're not meant to be a shiny star.

Spoiler It's like putting a spoiler on a junker car. :

So my solution is to make them a unit that can fight at the level of longsword UUs. It's not the best solution, but honestly I don't think there's a great solution outside of redesigning the whole unit.

Since Polynesia is not a warmonger, the entire purpose of the Maori Warrior (in my design) is to give Polynesia a defensive edge against the medieval/renaissance powerhouses that get UUs around that time (like Shaka). If the MW can perform that role now, then it is fine. If it cannot, then we need to increase it's bonuses until it can. It's not designed for an offensive war.

G

 

[pineappledan]

Let's not forget the effect of the Polynesian UI on the MW

The moai combat bonus would be there even if the unit was a base pikeman. Bearing the moai in mind is necessary of course, but describing it as you have downplays how every other Polynesian unit gets the same bonus, so MW still has nothing to commend it.

- reinforce this "defensive militia" aspect by reducing the production cost of the unit a bit

The unit is already 15 cheaper than a base pikeman.

The only thing that bothers me is that the "Feared elephant" promotion already suffers from the fact it is always lost on upgrade, so making the "HWD" promotion have a more powerful effect will definitively bury the "FE" promotion as the "weaker" version

Haka war dance overshadowing feared elephant is a good thing, far as I'm concerned. Feared elephant is a promotion tied to 3 units, one of which is available to every civ. It's more or less part-and-parcel with the elephant unit model, and isn't that special on its own. Haka is a true unique promotion, I think it's entirely appropriate for it to be better.

it will force us to buff the Shotelai and the Goedendag a bit, @pineappledan, so that they stay relevant.

I have already raised the Goedendag to 20, but this was mostly in response to the Landsknecht. I think a pikemen UU needs to be at least as good as the landsknecht, which is effectively a pikeman replacement that everyone can get.
The Shotelai is already at 21CS, stronger than berserker, and has very powerful unique promotions. I see no problem with keeping it where it is.

the entire purpose of the Maori Warrior (in my design) is to give Polynesia a defensive edge against the medieval/renaissance powerhouses that get UUs around that time (like Shaka). If the MW can perform that role now, then it is fine.

I don't think MW performs this role effectively right now, simply because its numbers are too low.

• 20CS makes the unit equivalent to a longswordsman, except with the Haka promotion instead of shock I. 20%CS from a nearby improvement should not be considered because it does not make the unit more competent than a longsword which enjoys the same benefit.
• It is categorically worse than a landsknecht, which has 5 special abilities to MW's 1:
  • bonus vs mounted
  • pillage movement
  • gold on city attack
  • move on purchase
  • full XP on purchase

In keeping with the defensive focus, here are some other ideas besides just bumping CS and HWD:

1. Special "Mana" promotion, doubles the effect of moai combat bonus (+20% CS when within 2 tiles of moai improvement. table already exists)
2. Special "Pa" promotion, +15%CS in hills, +15%CS when defending

I'm not a huge fan of making synergies between the MW and the moai, since they come from 2 disparate cultures, and having them interact mechanically feels a bit... gross? But it's a possibility.

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

I'd give it a promotion that gives a 15-25% CS bonus when fighting in owned/friendly lands.

 

[CrabHelmet]

You could use something based on the Pā. It'd be really neat if the Maori Warrior could build temporary citadels in friendly territory that were disbanded if, at the end of the turn, there were no units present not them. Probably too much new code, though.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pā

 

[pineappledan]

The maori civ mod did that. My suggestion was just to let them build forts; basically accomplishes the same thing

 

[CrabHelmet]

Spooky, I just saw your suggestion too. That's at least 3 people all independently coming up with the same idea - sign of a good one, perhaps?

 

[pineappledan]

I made my suggestion based off having seen the maori mod. Credit where credit's due. Two unique improvements on the same civ would be overboard though, hence forts.

 

[tu_79]

This gives an idea. Why not replacing Conquistador settling ability for the Maori Warrior? Founding cities would be much more useful and thematic to Polynesia. Conquistadors may not need another bonus in exchange (strong unit, defends well at sea, no penalty vs cities), and the settling ability was very minor for Spain anyways.

 

[CrabHelmet]

Honestly, I'd be okay with that, and I play a lot of Spain.

 

[Hinin]

This gives an idea. Why not replacing Conquistador settling ability for the Maori Warrior? Founding cities would be much more useful and thematic to Polynesia. Conquistadors may not need another bonus in exchange (strong unit, defends well at sea, no penalty vs cities), and the settling ability was very minor for Spain anyways.

Zealotry/Fealty Spain would like to have a word with you.

 

[Deadstarre]

Maori is a unique pikeman, however hes missing the spearline boost vs mounted for some reason. maybe thats all thats needed here? i cant see why he didnt deserve that buff

 

[pineappledan]

Probably because the weapon the Maori warrior is using, which looks to be some sort of tewhatewha, wouldn't be very effective against horses. I think I would prefer a second free promotion that stays on upgrade instead

 

[chicorbeef]

Why not give these guys the Guerrilla Fighters promotion? It's unique, thematic, reinforces the friendly territory idea, partly makes up for what you'd miss by not getting Shock 1, makes them decent scouts (fitting for Polynesia).