[MapScript] Erebus Continent

[[to_xp]Gekko]

hey m8, sucks to not see much feedback about your beta but I guess it means nobody is having issues since you know most people only post when they're having problems

so any news? don't tell me you've been working on yet MORE improvements!

 

[Seven05]

Actually, I'm trying to track down a bug pointed out in the Wild Mana board, once I have that fixed I'll post 2.65. Once 2.65 is up I have a second FfH map script that I've been secretly developing that I may release. Not sure about that second part yet though...

 

[Valkrionn]

Actually, I'm trying to track down a bug pointed out in the Wild Mana board, once I have that fixed I'll post 2.65. Once 2.65 is up I have a second FfH map script that I've been secretly developing that I may release. Not sure about that second part yet though...

Speaking of which, I really need to start testing that for you.

Will start running my test games on it.

 

[Seven05]

Yes, yes you should

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

that bug was for version 2.64, right? mabe it's already fixed and that's why you can't find it..

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

one thing I'd really like to see, at least on high cohesion, is a routine that makes sure there's not a big continent separated from the mainland. sometimes you get this big amount of good land separated by a damn small amount of water which makes all that good land pretty much useless. that's annoying enough, plus it means that no starting spot can be placed there, while often that would have been excellent in order for the startspotchooser routine to space them around as evenly as possible. I mean you can WB a tile of land to reconnect the runaway continent, but that won't fix the civ placement.

 

[Seven05]

one thing I'd really like to see, at least on high cohesion, is a routine that makes sure there's not a big continent separated from the mainland. sometimes you get this big amount of good land separated by a damn small amount of water which makes all that good land pretty much useless. that's annoying enough, plus it means that no starting spot can be placed there, while often that would have been excellent in order for the startspotchooser routine to space them around as evenly as possible. I mean you can WB a tile of land to reconnect the runaway continent, but that won't fix the civ placement.

You can get starting plots on multiple continents, there is nothing to prevent that from happening. The script wants 66% of the available land to be used for starting areas, so a single continent that has 66% or more of the total land will have all of the starting plots but if it's less than 66% and there is another landmass than can support at least two players you'll get starting plots on that one too. The only thing I actively try to prevent is players starting alone on a landmass but even that can occur if there simply isn't enough room for them elsewhere.

I didn't go with the simple method of defining a 'new world' like the original Civ4 Terra maps. Each landmass has a raw value based on the number of non-peak land tiles and the number of resources. A minimum raw value is determined by taking the best area (highest raw value) and dividing that value by the number of players, any area with a raw value less than that result is excluded from the area selection. That gets rid of the really small islands and the larger islands with lots of peaks since those are all guaranteed to be bad starts.

Typically, this cuts the list down to no more than a couple of continents and then we just have to decide if it would be worse to cram them all on one or split them up. While a human player can do ok off by themself the AI may as well be pulled from the game if they're forced to start like that, at least until somebody fixes the naval AI. If a human player starts alone like that they're basically unkillable, again until the naval AI is fixed. So, for now, we cram as many players together as we can.

If you actually prefer a game that plays like a buch of isolated games with a couple of civs each on different landmasses you'll have to wait for my next script

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

yeah I know it wants at least two thirds of the land for ALL starting spots

I was just pointing out that it has happened, with high cohesion + low sealevel, to have another continent ( definitely not one third of the land, but still big enough to make a noticeable difference in the amount of land available ) . the script is working exactly as intended, still I feel like that extreme setting of cohesion and sealevel should be more consistent in giving a pangea without stranded land. this is not even taking into account naval AI deficencies, simply that having that big continent connected to the mainland via an ishtmus would have made a difference in the quality of the distribution of civs on the map. I can take a couple small islands, but these were bigger I know the script is supposed to be unpredictable and that's what makes it great, but some times the end result would have been a lot better if it just had added a couple tiles of land in a specific point

I'll see if I can get a screenshot as an example later

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

so, did you manage to squash that pesky bug? I get anxious if I don't hear from you for so long

 

[Seven05]

It hasn't even been a month

Just busy here and haven't had much time to play with it. I have a long weekend coming up though so I should have some time to post an update here in the next few days.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

so, what's been going on lately?

 

[Maksim]

Hi!

I've used this script and one reason why we could be seeing a lot of initial settler movement is that you undervalue the bonuses - looking at the code, there is this:

value += shuffledPlots[m].hillValue * civPref.hillValue
value += shuffledPlots[m].bonusValue

Civilizations that have hillValue of two, will value a single blank hill as much as a useable bonus. That definitely doesn't seem right, and the Civ AI will move to a location with more bonuses.

I tried changing the line to:

value += shuffledPlots[m].bonusValue * 5

And it seems to be giving much better results.

 

[Seven05]

so, what's been going on lately?

I've been hiding, patiently awaiting Civ5, modding the Alien Swarm code for some friends, enjoying some fresh air while it's still summer here (and since I know I'll be locked away inside for a while once Civ5 is released).

I tried changing the line to:

value += shuffledPlots[m].bonusValue * 5

And it seems to be giving much better results.

Originally I had the bonus value adjusted per tile based on the era when the bonus became available and its proximity to other bonuses. I avoided using civ specific valuse for individual bonuses to keep the map script flexible enough to work with newly added civs without requiring a re-write. Later, I removed most of that code and meant to replace it with a static modifier based on the map option for cultural starts.

Your change to x5 sounds a bit extreme though. That means a single tile that would otherwise be worthless (0 value) or unwanted (< 0 value) could be preferred over as many as 5 otherwise better tiles. Take snow or tundra for example, an area with a cluster of 4 fur would have a value of 20, add in some nearby crabs or fish and you can push that up to 30+ easily. It is possible, even if not common, for that to end up as the highest valued plot for a civ that would do substantially better somewhere else. Since there is nothing in place to see what that bonus is, it may be mythril which offers no early game bonus at all, or Mana which is actually detrimental to have within your city radius. Although this is probably a non issue if you prefer balanced starts over flavored starts.

Even with the low value of 1 it serves as a simple +1 per bonus. So yes, a flat tile with a bonus is potentially worth less than a hill with no bonus for a civ that prefers hills however a hill with a bonus is worth far more than a flatland tile without one in the same example. But, it isn't quite that simple, the value of each plot in that shuffled list is actually a collection of that plot and the 24 surrounding plots so the exact location of the bonus is unimportant.

I'm not suggesting that you not do that if you're happy with the results, just pointing out the downsides to those of us who prefer more flavorful starts over purely balanced starts.

I still have an unreleased map script based on this that I should release before I forget so if I'm going to do that I should also go in and adjust the bonus value based on the flavor map option like I intended to do so long ago

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

if you're talking about World of Erebus that comes with RifE 1.3, it's not as good as this one due to the simple fact that High cohesion ErebusContinent is The Mapscript For FFH until the AI can use navies well. I'd much rather see 2.65 come out of the Beta status before other scripts come out, unless there is a "always create pangeas" option that comes with it

one humble request I'd like to add to all the others that are already in the last couple pages of the thread would be to add a small flavour for jungle to the Clan of Embers, similar to Doviello and tundra. reason for this is that, unless you're using non-default races like the Mazatl, there will not ever be any jungle on the map when using the Override option. that, and even in base FFH orcs and goblins get bonus strength in jungle, while most modmods give them even greater bonuses in them. it's their flavour to start on the edge of the jungle

Great to see you back, hope you had lots of fun!

 

[Seven05]

if you're talking about World of Erebus that comes with RifE 1.3, it's not as good as this one due to the simple fact that High cohesion ErebusContinent is The Mapscript For FFH until the AI can use navies well.

Yeah, that was an early (first attempt even) version that nobody ever really tested as far as I know. Regardless of the naval AI (or lack thereof) I prefer the mostly single continent maps of Erebus Continent, I also dislike using the full range of the climate from north to south poles as it compresses the climate zones far too much trying to get that full 180 degrees of latitude.

I'd much rather see 2.65 come out of the Beta status before other scripts come out, unless there is a "always create pangeas" option that comes with it

The two aren't exclusive

All 'World of Erebus' did was use the global tectonics from Perfect World 2 (modified to use Cohesion) and the full latitude range for the climate.

one humble request I'd like to add to all the others that are already in the last couple pages of the thread would be to add a small flavour for jungle to the Clan of Embers, similar to Doviello and tundra.

Thats easy enough, provided I don't completely forget about it by the time I get home tonight.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

you rock, can't wait

one thing you should probably do when you have enough free time on your hands, and are inclined to do so, is review the last couple pages for suggestions from me and others and discussion about those, related to 2.64 and 2.65, as I guess you haven't been thinking about the script while you were away

 

[Seven05]

I tried changing the line to:

value += shuffledPlots[m].bonusValue * 5

So it turns out that in 2.65 (not in the first post) I had already addressed this like I described in my last response. The base value for bonuses was 1 for coastal resources, 2 for land resources and 4 for land resources with early access.

For 2.7 I did update it so that limited and minimal flavor starts value bonuses more. I also added the requested preference for Jungles to the Clan.

The first post will be updated shortly.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

thanx for the update!

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

here is a great example of why imho pangeas should get enforced a bit more!

standard size, high cohesion, low sealevel. you can see in the minimap that there's a huge continent west. in the main screen you can see how just 3 tiles of land would have connected it to the mainland, providing a lot more usable land without use for navies, and keeping the map as good looking as it is. clearly that would have allowed for starting plots to be a lot more evenly spaced around.

I still think a east/west shuffling for that would complement the north/south shuffling very well, and since you have that in WorldofErebus I guess it would be pretty easy to add this to this mapscript

 

[Seven05]

here is a great example of why imho pangeas should get enforced a bit more!

standard size, high cohesion, low sealevel. you can see in the minimap that there's a huge continent west. in the main screen you can see how just 3 tiles of land would have connected it to the mainland, providing a lot more usable land without use for navies, and keeping the map as good looking as it is. clearly that would have allowed for starting plots to be a lot more evenly spaced around.

It's very hard to identify the perfect spot to do that and which maps it would and wouldn't be good for. I wouldn't want it on every map personally and then trying to write the code to spot that and connect it without it looking horrible is a lot more difficult that it sounds

I still think a east/west shuffling for that would complement the north/south shuffling very well, and since you have that in WorldofErebus I guess it would be pretty easy to add this to this mapscript

East<->West shuffling is already in, there is no North<->South shuffling. As each civ is placed they alternate between a preference for east/west starting plots. North & south are used by some civs to get them to start in specific regions since this script doens't have cold lands in the south or jungles in the north.