Arvoreniad
Chieftain
- Joined
- Jun 26, 2013
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Indeed I do - removed it and Xtended works perfectly. Thanks!
Master of Mana Xtended - Download and Changelog
- Thread starter esvath
- Start date
Vital Brasil
Chieftain
Hi !
In my new playtrough i noticed a few bugs that i thought i should report
:
1 - Right after engaging a war with the Amurites, they used their world spell, and i was still able to cast spells (at that time i had only magic missiles and the charm spell from bard promotion)
2 - The staff of the Svartalfar archmage is pink. Not sure if it's intended, but it looks weird. Yeah, that's a very minor problem, but i just report everything
3 - This one is related with the restriction on building cities in tiles that produces no food. After 400 turns i encountered the Elohim and they still had not build their first city. Their settler was standing in a jungle tile that produced no food since the beginning of the game. Through the world builder i changed the tile to a fertile grass/forest and right in the next turn they build their first city.
4 - This one i had one month ago but i think i forgot to report. Even being in peace with the barbarians, they ask me for tributes/ slaves. The problem is that no other option is avaliable and i always have to give them what they want, crippling the development of my people; or declare war to barbarians early in the game, defeating one of the flavour things of the clan of embers.
In my new playtrough i noticed a few bugs that i thought i should report
:1 - Right after engaging a war with the Amurites, they used their world spell, and i was still able to cast spells (at that time i had only magic missiles and the charm spell from bard promotion)
2 - The staff of the Svartalfar archmage is pink. Not sure if it's intended, but it looks weird. Yeah, that's a very minor problem, but i just report everything
3 - This one is related with the restriction on building cities in tiles that produces no food. After 400 turns i encountered the Elohim and they still had not build their first city. Their settler was standing in a jungle tile that produced no food since the beginning of the game. Through the world builder i changed the tile to a fertile grass/forest and right in the next turn they build their first city.
4 - This one i had one month ago but i think i forgot to report. Even being in peace with the barbarians, they ask me for tributes/ slaves. The problem is that no other option is avaliable and i always have to give them what they want, crippling the development of my people; or declare war to barbarians early in the game, defeating one of the flavour things of the clan of embers.
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esvath
Apprentice of Erebus
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- Mar 27, 2008
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- 1,403
Thanks!
Glad you can play it. Looking forward for your impression of the game.
I'll check with these. The second one will be easy to fix, it's just a missing texture.1 - Right after engaging a war with the Amurites, they used their world spell, and i was still able to cast spells (at that time i had only magic missiles and the charm spell from bard promotion)
2 - The staff of the Svartalfar archmage is pink. Not sure if it's intended, but it looks weird. Yeah, that's a very minor problem, but i just report everything
I have made the changes to AI starting location for the next version.
Unfortunately, AI attitude is modded in DLL, so I can't do anything about that.
@Calavente
Ok let's go fudging point by point
Eidolons are demons first of all. And they have absolute immunity to your so-beloved poison damage. Guess that's a real point in their favor right off the gate. Against someone who spams recon and poison like you like to talk about, eidolons are amazing because suddenly all your poison damage is useless. Disciple of Aeron gives unholy damage? Guess what eidolons are immune to that too. Finally, eidolons contribute to the armageddon counter which at a high enough number will spread hell terrain which demons get stronger on. That's just on their race alone. Next, they start out with march which is a huge benefit simply because it allows them to heal while moving which means they will always be some of the healthiest attackers and defenders in a stack which means they fight more often which makes their combat advantages come up more often.
The religion tech is vastly more expensive but that is because that tech comes with bane divine which will kill all your druids once that completes.
Rangers and Satyrs are good. But better than units of the same category? What? I'm assuming you mean same tech level. Satyrs are compared to oathtakers, Rathas, Paramanders, and fudging Beast of Agares. Oathtakers have a key role in lowering armageddon counter while being great cavalry. Rathas eat satyrs alive with +50% vs recon. Paramanders are great siege units, and Beast of Agares come out with base 20 strength and have double +2 affinity. Satyrs are definitely not better than others.
Rangers I would have to agree with simply for being too early in the tech tree, not because they are too strong. If they were one guild tech higher, I think they would be balanced. Then, civs that don't rush ranger guild have units or mechanics in play to counter the ranger's strengths.
Melee are powerful because of their flexibility and reliability. The recon discipline is all about specialized units that do well versus certain things and do nothing versus others. If your nearby enemies generally have one shared weakness, of course recon will be better. But without that condition, recon units are not as strong as melee. Melee can fight anything without being horribly handicapped.
You say that you don't get XP until attacking cities. I think you are not playing correctly. Unless you are playing with raging barbarians on, barb camps are meant to be XP farms, not meant to be cleared out. There's all the XP you need.
2 movement is indeed something recon units have as an advantage, but once again, that's the tradeoff. Taking 2 movement away from recon units would just cripple them in their role as scouts.
About the Svartalfar, you can't give them more recon units. Sinister is +15% for free. Giving them more recon units to use that trait would break the civ in half. And how is assassin a niche unit. Marksman doesn't mean it's meant just for assassinating weak targets. If I have 5 assassins that kill 5 units, it is just killing them in reverse order from weakest to strongest rather than the normal way.
The Iron Maiden is weak but she is one of the few svart units that can take defense discipline and go lord protector. Not every unit has to be powerful. She is a role player as a strong defender unit.
Svart are meant to be evil. If you want to violate lore and go neutral, then yes, it takes work to get them there.
Assassin isn't tier V
Ljolsafar are a defensive civ. They feel plenty strong to me. I also feel that each civ have their OP's. I feel that Elohim are powerful. Their monks are not their secret. It's tolerant. Malakim are OP. They take over all desert terrain. Austrin are still being developed.
Svart don't need more recon bonuses. Do you hear what you are even saying. You rant on and on about how powerful Svart recon are and then turn around and say they need more bonuses. WTH?
Melee, defense, archery etc etc might need more buffs but certainly not because of the reasons you gave. You focus way too much on units and your own play rather than taking a look at what other civs have and that civ is more than a military game. The fact that you zeroed in on Malakim's units rather than their affinity for desert terrain shows how narrow your vision of the game is. Elohim monks. Great joke. How about tolerant letting them build the unique units from the cities they conquer. That surely seems to be their special point. Elohim with Vampires, golems, giants, etc. Seems OP.
All your conclusion points have been addressed above but your last point is just sheer WTH. Why should shields give atk str? You have offhand blades for that. If you want more atk, get offhand blades, don't try to change shields to do so. Shields have their own role.
Ok let's go fudging point by point
Eidolons are demons first of all. And they have absolute immunity to your so-beloved poison damage. Guess that's a real point in their favor right off the gate. Against someone who spams recon and poison like you like to talk about, eidolons are amazing because suddenly all your poison damage is useless. Disciple of Aeron gives unholy damage? Guess what eidolons are immune to that too. Finally, eidolons contribute to the armageddon counter which at a high enough number will spread hell terrain which demons get stronger on. That's just on their race alone. Next, they start out with march which is a huge benefit simply because it allows them to heal while moving which means they will always be some of the healthiest attackers and defenders in a stack which means they fight more often which makes their combat advantages come up more often.
The religion tech is vastly more expensive but that is because that tech comes with bane divine which will kill all your druids once that completes.
Rangers and Satyrs are good. But better than units of the same category? What? I'm assuming you mean same tech level. Satyrs are compared to oathtakers, Rathas, Paramanders, and fudging Beast of Agares. Oathtakers have a key role in lowering armageddon counter while being great cavalry. Rathas eat satyrs alive with +50% vs recon. Paramanders are great siege units, and Beast of Agares come out with base 20 strength and have double +2 affinity. Satyrs are definitely not better than others.
Rangers I would have to agree with simply for being too early in the tech tree, not because they are too strong. If they were one guild tech higher, I think they would be balanced. Then, civs that don't rush ranger guild have units or mechanics in play to counter the ranger's strengths.
Melee are powerful because of their flexibility and reliability. The recon discipline is all about specialized units that do well versus certain things and do nothing versus others. If your nearby enemies generally have one shared weakness, of course recon will be better. But without that condition, recon units are not as strong as melee. Melee can fight anything without being horribly handicapped.
You say that you don't get XP until attacking cities. I think you are not playing correctly. Unless you are playing with raging barbarians on, barb camps are meant to be XP farms, not meant to be cleared out. There's all the XP you need.
2 movement is indeed something recon units have as an advantage, but once again, that's the tradeoff. Taking 2 movement away from recon units would just cripple them in their role as scouts.
About the Svartalfar, you can't give them more recon units. Sinister is +15% for free. Giving them more recon units to use that trait would break the civ in half. And how is assassin a niche unit. Marksman doesn't mean it's meant just for assassinating weak targets. If I have 5 assassins that kill 5 units, it is just killing them in reverse order from weakest to strongest rather than the normal way.
The Iron Maiden is weak but she is one of the few svart units that can take defense discipline and go lord protector. Not every unit has to be powerful. She is a role player as a strong defender unit.
Svart are meant to be evil. If you want to violate lore and go neutral, then yes, it takes work to get them there.
Assassin isn't tier V
Ljolsafar are a defensive civ. They feel plenty strong to me. I also feel that each civ have their OP's. I feel that Elohim are powerful. Their monks are not their secret. It's tolerant. Malakim are OP. They take over all desert terrain. Austrin are still being developed.
Svart don't need more recon bonuses. Do you hear what you are even saying. You rant on and on about how powerful Svart recon are and then turn around and say they need more bonuses. WTH?
Melee, defense, archery etc etc might need more buffs but certainly not because of the reasons you gave. You focus way too much on units and your own play rather than taking a look at what other civs have and that civ is more than a military game. The fact that you zeroed in on Malakim's units rather than their affinity for desert terrain shows how narrow your vision of the game is. Elohim monks. Great joke. How about tolerant letting them build the unique units from the cities they conquer. That surely seems to be their special point. Elohim with Vampires, golems, giants, etc. Seems OP.
All your conclusion points have been addressed above but your last point is just sheer WTH. Why should shields give atk str? You have offhand blades for that. If you want more atk, get offhand blades, don't try to change shields to do so. Shields have their own role.
esvath
Apprentice of Erebus
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2008
- Messages
- 1,403
Thanks for the detailed impression on balance, Icezera.
This point caught my interest. Is Ranger truly that powerful? I'd love to hear your thought, and anyone else, about Ranger.
I do think it is too powerful at the tech level. Getting the required culture for ranger guild tech is very easy to do since early guild techs are so cheap. By starting ranger guild and the first culture tech, you will easily have enough for the ranger by your third city. At that point, you will probably have enough leather saved up (since we are in ranger guild) to churn out 8 rangers. They outclass any unit built at the time because of 9 base strength and their combat modifiers. Coupled with the upcoming goblin slaying promotion, I think they will be able to eat barb camps alive. Granted, I mostly play on erebus continent map that only has like half the barb camps that spawn so perhaps other maps indirectly nerf the ranger through the variety of units.
On that point, I was wondering if you know any map modders? I find Erebus continent to be the only one I can play since all the others are so weird and dont' have logical spawns. Some have no uniformity of terrain so you see hell, desert, and snow terrain all mixed together, some just aren't good to play with ai since it doesn't use portals, and others just have bad spawn settings.
I thanks you for this. It has been enlightening.
I disagree on a few points, but few of them ; for most other things I've learned.
However I really think that you compare things that are not comparable and I noticed that you "put into my words" things I never expressed.
My point were not that Malakim or Elohim only useful features were units (svart themselves are not limited to the sinister promotion)... or that Svart should be strengthened, or that Eilodon were completly not-useful, or that Svart are not thematically Evil or that "Eilodon Tech has no other interest than Eilodon"...etc.
My point is only that:
- "ever since I played Xtended I found that the recon units disciplines and class were stronger and more appealing than the melee or mounted ones" ; and
- "in my Svart game, I can feel that this is highlighted and this OPness of recon class is shown every odd turn... and I never got this impression for any other unit-category in any other of my games"
I know that FFH is about balancing different OPness and different strategies.
I know that Svart are designed to bring more out of recon than other civs. (but honestly, +15%str has no overall bearing on the str of the units I have; it is marginal : it is the worth of about 1promotion)
I know that FFH is more than a military game. (but it's easier to win when you have stronger units than the counter-part).
And I appreciate all the tibbits of strategy that you provided.
It doesn't change that IMO discipline for discipline, class for class, recon have it stronger.
The inherent strengths of the melee category that you speak of do not, most often, compensate for this.
The inherent advantages of the melee category that you cite compensate other advantages of the recon category
Spoiler for reminder :
all that is good, it is what is called "BALANCE".
however classes (aeron/poison master/bloodblade) and the exclusive poison combat/poison bomb/cripple effect are "on top of all that", and IMO break that balance.
and IMO you minimize a bit much the strategical and tactical power of movement.
Spoiler movement reminders :
But I've noticed that you disagree ^^
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Hi
Good discussion here about the strengths and weaknesses of units. I have noticed that as the Xtended has moved in the last patch towards more barbarians in the world and the camps being a true threat (at least on Emperor difficulty) - and at the same time having lower maximum unit amount (also some buildings giving less unit support then before) - having more movement has become more important then ever.
I am noticing in my games, that I am going for five stars in strength earlier then before - that's because melee units(well, it seems all units actually?) get that one extra movement point after that. Maybe this is intended -actually, it is more possible, getting exp that is, without wars now, because the camps seem to be spawning more often. Recon units are no longer as OP as they were before(especially Rangers and equivalent versions); nowadays it is more important to get more and more city attack (which recon units lack, not counting some exceptions) to beat the barbarian camps. And I do explore and destroy the barbarian camps because I need the materials - wood and stone amounts that cities eat makes that a necessity. What I am trying to say, I seem to need more diversity in my troops - faster units to catch those that try to outrun or catch those evil barbarians who are trying to pillage my hard earned money on the far corners of my ever growing empire and battle hardened troops attacking the camps to get materials to strengthen the troops or building grand structures...OK, enough about that rant
.
I do hope the Mazatl pink city screen problem is not forgotten and someone in the dev team could fix that?
Anyways, thanks for an interesting read and hope Xtended just keeps getting better and better, as it has.
Good discussion here about the strengths and weaknesses of units. I have noticed that as the Xtended has moved in the last patch towards more barbarians in the world and the camps being a true threat (at least on Emperor difficulty) - and at the same time having lower maximum unit amount (also some buildings giving less unit support then before) - having more movement has become more important then ever.
I am noticing in my games, that I am going for five stars in strength earlier then before - that's because melee units(well, it seems all units actually?) get that one extra movement point after that. Maybe this is intended -actually, it is more possible, getting exp that is, without wars now, because the camps seem to be spawning more often. Recon units are no longer as OP as they were before(especially Rangers and equivalent versions); nowadays it is more important to get more and more city attack (which recon units lack, not counting some exceptions) to beat the barbarian camps. And I do explore and destroy the barbarian camps because I need the materials - wood and stone amounts that cities eat makes that a necessity. What I am trying to say, I seem to need more diversity in my troops - faster units to catch those that try to outrun or catch those evil barbarians who are trying to pillage my hard earned money on the far corners of my ever growing empire and battle hardened troops attacking the camps to get materials to strengthen the troops or building grand structures...OK, enough about that rant
.I do hope the Mazatl pink city screen problem is not forgotten and someone in the dev team could fix that?
Anyways, thanks for an interesting read and hope Xtended just keeps getting better and better, as it has.
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esvath
Apprentice of Erebus
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2008
- Messages
- 1,403
Xtended 5.2
Download here
Changelog:
Known bug
- Ogres spawned like crazy in one barbarian city. For now, Ogres will have "Held" promotion so they won't move at all from their city.
Next version will be fine tuning balance (like Ranger) and design for the new civs. I don't think there will be any major feature introduced.
Your thought/impression/comment/suggestions are always welcomed!
Download here
Changelog:
Spoiler :
Known bug
- Ogres spawned like crazy in one barbarian city. For now, Ogres will have "Held" promotion so they won't move at all from their city.
Next version will be fine tuning balance (like Ranger) and design for the new civs. I don't think there will be any major feature introduced.
Your thought/impression/comment/suggestions are always welcomed!
Vital Brasil
Chieftain
Downloading the new version right now !! My exams week is coming, but i just won't be able to study before playing this version.
So, while the file is downloading i would like to report a few things i noticed in my last games:
- Nature's Revolt is not giving animals the enrage promotion;
- Phantasmagoria is applying the effect to all units, not only to illusions;
- There's something wrong regarding the Elohim A.I. When i was playing as Elohim, my civilization was every few turns declaring war to a random A.I player (It was happening automatically, without my will). In another game, when playing with Svartalfar, The Elohim insisted in declaring war against me all the time, despite of their military force being 10 times weaker than mine. In both cases the leader was the Einion Logos.
So, while the file is downloading i would like to report a few things i noticed in my last games:
- Nature's Revolt is not giving animals the enrage promotion;
- Phantasmagoria is applying the effect to all units, not only to illusions;
- There's something wrong regarding the Elohim A.I. When i was playing as Elohim, my civilization was every few turns declaring war to a random A.I player (It was happening automatically, without my will). In another game, when playing with Svartalfar, The Elohim insisted in declaring war against me all the time, despite of their military force being 10 times weaker than mine. In both cases the leader was the Einion Logos.
It's a great changelog. Some work, some thinking work. I will play it with great pleasure.
I have a good opinion on plenty of things : Sheaims & Magic's rebalance especially. But I may give my opinion later, after have playing. ^^
I would like to find people to play multiplayer so if someone want to play with us please contact me.
I have a good opinion on plenty of things : Sheaims & Magic's rebalance especially. But I may give my opinion later, after have playing. ^^
I would like to find people to play multiplayer so if someone want to play with us please contact me.
esvath
Apprentice of Erebus
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2008
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Will check on this.
What was happening? I am particularly interested in "declaring war without your will". That's first time I heard about this.
I'm also gonna download this immediately! Finally, Mazatl is playable without getting eye cancer. And I'm really gonna play all those civs that got cool new mechanics.
Oh and I have a question: Can someone explain to me why I want to spread Ice as Illians? Yes, my units become slightly stronger, but economically, Ice is still clearly worse than Tundra or Grassland. Similarly, even with the Grand Lodge, Camps are worse than Farms, especially with Harvesting.
Oh and I have a question: Can someone explain to me why I want to spread Ice as Illians? Yes, my units become slightly stronger, but economically, Ice is still clearly worse than Tundra or Grassland. Similarly, even with the Grand Lodge, Camps are worse than Farms, especially with Harvesting.
esvath
Apprentice of Erebus
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2008
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Oh, I forgot to re-enable them again. You can change this easily by setting bAllowAI to 1 in Xtended/XRooster/XRCivilizationInfos.xml.
1) lore
2) to make it harder for other civs to survive on that territory
Well, lore is basically my point since imo gameplay and lore should fit together, so if by lore you want to spread ice, then you should be incentived by the game to do so.
And making it harder to survive for others doesn't really matter that much for terrain inside your own borders.
Hmm, this makes me consider giving the Illians one gold on ice tiles(that's possible for civs or not?) so that economically, ice is almost as good for them as normal tiles and not significantly worse.
Edit: Oh I just had an idea: Is there some way to generate faith based on the number of ice iles around a city? That would fit lore really well and would make ice much more appealing.
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esvath
Apprentice of Erebus
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2008
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I *think* it is possible to give extra yield on terrain, not commerce type. So, giving one commerce (coin) is possible but gold is not. Haven't check the code, though.
But Illians already have +1 food from Snow. Otherwise, they can't settle on snow.
Opuhara
Warlord
Thank you for this update and dedicated work; can't wait to try the new version bvut a lot to relearn
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