Master of Mana

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Modpacks' started by Sephi, Dec 21, 2010.

  1. graywarden

    graywarden King

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2007
    Messages:
    819
    The new improvement system has went through a lot of adjustments since its inception, just now is it starting to get a little easier, though even I still have trouble understanding it in its fullest. But I also have not spent a lot of time trying to either, I just kinda limp along, and bit by bit I discover some little tidbit that I didnt understand before.

    here is the link to the main thread on the Master of Mana website forum if it helps any.

    http://www.masterofmana.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=548&start=0
     
  2. Deon

    Deon Lt. of Mordor

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2008
    Messages:
    2,956
    Location:
    St.Petersburg, Russian Federation
    Thank you, it helps :).

    I wonder how do those resources (stone/lumber/leather) speed up the construction?

    They seem to accumulate and never be spent. What does the "you have 241 lumber" mean? What can I do with that? :) I wonder do I spend them when I build something which is "sped up"?
     
  3. graywarden

    graywarden King

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2007
    Messages:
    819
    The global yields speed up building and unit production.

    If you have a stockpile of wood, then you can build that building faster (game turns) then without for example.

    If you have a stockpile of metal, then a mele unit can be built faster AND have a metal weapons promotion depending on what level of metal you are currently producing.

    http://www.masterofmana.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=64&start=0

    is another thread that may help, should link you to a guide that one of the guys came up with.
     
  4. Deon

    Deon Lt. of Mordor

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2008
    Messages:
    2,956
    Location:
    St.Petersburg, Russian Federation
    Yes there is a guide in another thread.

    Also it says
    :/
     
  5. graywarden

    graywarden King

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2007
    Messages:
    819
    Oooppss, sorry about that, I didnt realize that thread was so outdated. :crazyeye:
     
  6. God-Emperor

    God-Emperor Deity

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2009
    Messages:
    3,551
    Location:
    Texas
    Here's a hint for the current improvement system:

    There is no restriction on building primary improvements next to each other. In fact, you are often better off doing so since some of them give bonuses to other adjacent improvements. Example: a watermill gives all adjacent cottage and trade post series improvements +1 production.

    Also note that some optional features (enabled by a game option) block improvements in all adjacent plots: the mana shrine, witch hut, and lost temple. Generally speaking, once a city has popped its borders a few times and gotten a significant population the losses from not being able to improve the blocked plots can be much worse than the benefits from these features (a little extra mana, spell research, or faith each turn), so you should avoid putting your cities too close to them. In my current game, the first where I turned these on, my capitol is 1 plot diagonal and 1 vertical from a mana shrine, so that is blocking 4 plots from being improved (although I couldn't have improved one of them anyway as it has a unique feature - the Mirror of Heaven, or whatever it is really called) while the city could easily handle at least 2 more trading posts (as the Malakim, these only count for half) and a watermill without paying any upkeep (all the other improvable plots are improved). I knew this would happen, but didn't realize how great the impact would be a couple hundred turns down the line and there was not really any better place to settle in sight (or, as I discovered later, anywhere reachable without a ship).
     
  7. Fuyu

    Fuyu Emperor

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2009
    Messages:
    1,225
    Location:
    Austria
    How could I have missed this? Sounds like something that needs to be ported back to stock BTS for Better AI.


    Sounds like an overly complicated new game mechanic. Any special reason why this has to be there?
     
  8. Soro

    Soro Warlord

    Joined:
    May 22, 2003
    Messages:
    193
    Should I assume that the Advanced AI content mentioned back on the last page is of no interest? Just checking, since I there was no response one way or the other. I can certainly live without it, though I like the idea of letting in non-military units via an agreement without letting in all of another player's units.
     
  9. Deon

    Deon Lt. of Mordor

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2008
    Messages:
    2,956
    Location:
    St.Petersburg, Russian Federation
    Ahha! I now see why couldn't I build a mine, there was a temple in a forest nearby. Where can I get info on what they do? Their pedia descriptions are blank.

    I've played three games and got used to it. I believe that the special reason is that it's a cool mechanic :). You now have to plan your infrastructure ahead and you can get really wonderful results if you think a bit, or a disaster if you don't. I find it nice, it's good when the player's skill allows you to play better, rather than presets. In original game I would just automate my workers :).

    Speaking of which, how are the automated workers here? I haven't tried to make them to work plots yet, I prefer to make it manually, but it would be nice to know.
     
  10. Deon

    Deon Lt. of Mordor

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2008
    Messages:
    2,956
    Location:
    St.Petersburg, Russian Federation
    Oops, sorry Soro, I missed it. It's a great system, I remember it. If we had more diplomacy options, especially a trade without unit movement, it would be grand.

    May I suggest you to offer it on the mod forums? I am sure it will get more attention there.
     
  11. Nor'easter

    Nor'easter Emperor

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2007
    Messages:
    1,737
    I believe that Sephi's basic idea was that having improvements in every tile didn't suit the flavor of a fantasy mod, so he wanted to limit them in some way.
     
  12. God-Emperor

    God-Emperor Deity

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2009
    Messages:
    3,551
    Location:
    Texas
    I recommend a look at the MoM Quick Start Guide posted by Kingknarf over on the offical MoM site's forums.

    From that, and playing some, it looks like a mana shrine gives +2 mana/turn (same as an improved mana node, or double that of an unimproved mana node location, or the same as two mage guild buildings), a witch hut gives +3 spell research/turn (same as one mage guild), and a lost temple gives +4 faith/turn (base, there is a time related adjustment that starts out at -100% penalty on the turn you switch to a religion, increasing each turn until it hits a +100% bonus somewhat later) if you have a state religion (the same as two cities with your state religion). You don't need to be working the plots to get these benefits, they just need to be within your borders. Not mentioned in the guide, but from some hints in the game text file, it also looks like a mana node may provide some spell research each turn (or maybe not - the text may be out of date) and the witch's hut provides some of the new herbs accumulating resource (I think it is 1/turn). You may need to work the plot to get the herbs.

    The mouse-over text for the plot with the thing on it should give info about it, like that you can't improve the adjacent plots and what extra yields it gives. Tags for this exist in the mod's game text files. Unfortunately that text is not actually displayed anywhere in the game that I have noticed.

    The total benefit from lost temples is clearly listed on the mouse-over help pop-up for the faith resource, but the mana bonus is grouped in with other things and the research bonus is not listed separately anywhere I have noticed - by adding up everything else you could deduce the added research since there is a total given on the Overview page of the Magic screen.

    Sadly, even if you had looked in the XML you won't be able to tell what these 3 improvements do since they are apparently hardcoded in the DLL (I expected to find new tags in the XML so that what they provide can be set there, but that is not the case and I find no mention of them in the Python therefore it must be in the DLL, the source for which is not in the mod download so I couldn't check to see what it says). The XML does reveal that they have the bPermanent tag set, which is why you can't raze them (and you can't settle a city on top of one to wipe it out either - on my cramped and resource poor section of continent in the game I mentioned above I ended up settling a city right nest to a lost temple because of this, which greatly hampers its development).

    One more note. They don't block water plot improvements (fishing boats or fishing villages/pirate coves), which also don't count in the main improvement related upkeep calculations. Any time an improvement is blocked by one of these there should be a line in the displayed help text indicating why you can't do it, like "Your people refuse to work at this mystical place. They say Nature itself would smite upon them if they dare to construct an Improvement next to a Mana Shrine."
     
  13. [to_xp]Gekko

    [to_xp]Gekko QCT junkie

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2005
    Messages:
    7,950
    Location:
    Seyda Neen, Vvardenfell
    as weird as the new improvement system may sound, it's an excellent mechanic once you actually try it out. for the first time you'll actually be thinking about what to build and where.
     
  14. Fuyu

    Fuyu Emperor

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2009
    Messages:
    1,225
    Location:
    Austria
    As stupid as I may have sounded, I am not. I know I'd get the new system eventually, it's just more micro for no gain (as far as I can see at least, that esthetical requirement that tiles in a fantasy world shouldn't be completely covered with improvements sounds only like a fetish) but I am/was very worried about the AI. But if the AI being completey rewritten includes worker AI, my worries may have been unfounded though.
     
  15. [to_xp]Gekko

    [to_xp]Gekko QCT junkie

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2005
    Messages:
    7,950
    Location:
    Seyda Neen, Vvardenfell
    the aestethical point is A point, not THE point. the point is what I have posted previously. Sephi wouldn't make such a huge change just for the sake of aestethics, I have no idea how that rumour started :lol:
     
  16. Nor'easter

    Nor'easter Emperor

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2007
    Messages:
    1,737
    Sephi's first post in the thread describing the new improvement system, the very first bullet point reads "You will build less improvements and not every tile will have an improvement. Much better for a fantasy mod."

    So maybe that's where the rumor originated. ;)

    I don't doubt that there were other considerations also at work, but flavor/aesthetics was clearly involved as well.
     
  17. [to_xp]Gekko

    [to_xp]Gekko QCT junkie

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2005
    Messages:
    7,950
    Location:
    Seyda Neen, Vvardenfell
    good point :lol:

    sure it's involved, it's just not the main reason ;)

    check it out for yourself, constructive criticism is always beneficial...
     
  18. Sephi

    Sephi Deity

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2009
    Messages:
    2,970
    I thought about that as well. But it seems Better BTS AI is finished or not in Development at the moment even if they were interested.

    When I was more of a casual player of Civ, I really liked the Improvement System. But the more I played the game, the more I got annoyed by the fact, that you have to do a lot of decision, which are all mostly meaningless. There are games that do it better though:
    Colonization (the original): When you improve a plot, it costs you tools which are expensive in the early game. So you need to make a decision which plots to improve first
    Imperialism: When you improve a plot, it costs resources. you also need to connect the plot via railroad/ocean trade, so you have to make the decision what areas to improve first.
    I think the new Improvement System has the same characteristic that is gives you less decisions (because there are less Improvements to be build), but each decision is more important. You can decide if you want to improve the local city or increase your output of globalyields like lumber or metal for example.

    I think Afforress has done a great job and it surely fits RoM. But if I merge it, I would only pick up a few things.
    The pedia links to the wrong txt_keys. It will be fixed next patch.

    I actually wrote a new worker AI before. The new worker AI basically uses the same idea like the actual effects from BUG mod. So workers will calculate what an improvement will actually bring to the city. For example if the city has some buildings with commerce modifier, it will understand that commerce improvements give higher value. It's true, any improvement is useless if the AI doesn't understand it, but I think the AI is pretty good at it although it surely needs some polish here and there.
     
  19. Blue Senshi

    Blue Senshi Warlord

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2009
    Messages:
    136
    It looks like you were right; the CTD during "initializing graphics" only happens on the "huge" map setting. I had no problem on "large" or "standard" except that I get several "BUG failed to initialize" this and that error messages when the map first appears.
     
  20. Soro

    Soro Warlord

    Joined:
    May 22, 2003
    Messages:
    193
    I hope you'll consider it, but of course, I'll understand if you don't. You're adding a great deal, as it is.
     

Share This Page