Math01 - My first SG: OCC Space Race

Mathias said:
You realize that was actually 2-turn growth, 2-turn archer. This is general gameplay. I'm not criticizing this, it is just something you need to know, and be aware of. When a city grows, the new citizen is added before production is calculated, so that citizen will contribute shields immediately. Khan was apparently unaware of this as well, judging by his comment "it grows in 1 for worker in 2" concerning the position at 2350 BC.

Yes I knew that, it still took 3 turns though, we were producing 8spt that turn, the next citizen also put in another 2 on turn 2 however that was 18shields total. If you notice from my turnlog:

dl123654 said:
Turn 1 2310BC:
Worker->Archer
Have a choice of 2 turn growth with 3 for the archer or reversed, choose 2 turn growth

...

Turn 4 2190BC:
Archer->Archer in 2

The suicide boat was because the southern boat has almost reached the northern boat by my last turn and I've seen in many games a small island like that connecting the two landmasses so I thought it was worth a shot. I also saw the sea near us but our boats are nowhere near there during my turnset. If I had built the boats I would have sent them across there before I explored my island, especially for a game like this, all the AI on our island will come to us and the contacts would have been worth the small risk.
 
Yes, we will be OK here. Revolt in 1600 BC, finish Colossus around 1450 BC.

The Great Library is off limits. It produces way too much culture, and we would get very little from it as far as tech goes. Remember, this is a full-throttled approach. We will bee-line for Astronomy.

After Colossus, sword or archer if needed, a curragh or two, then Mausoleum in 7 turns. Library after that. We'll be in the next turnset by then, so we can discuss more after Renata's turns. As far as wonders go, the Great Lighthouse and Great Wall are inexpensive, low-culture tourist attractions. I'd like to get both of them. Especially the Lighthouse, denying our rivals the ability to travel between our continent and the other continent, which is apparently not too far east of us, prior to Astronomy.

Renata, check this out: GREEN BORDERS!
Green_Border.jpg


dl, that should have been 9 + 11 for archer in 2 turns. Take a closer look if you like. If we darted off early and lost our curragh, we would have to build another one. Lost production is more of a hindrance than late contact with the second contact. About your decison, I don't mind, really. The thing is, I want more forum participation, and your action directly contradicted what I posted. I would probably have agreed to that run had we discussed it and other possible locations first.
 
Green borders? *peers in vain at screen* If you say so. *smacks monitor*

I'll be sure to check it out. Ok, really going to bed now.

Renata
 
The JPEG compression blurred it a bit, they are more obvious in the game.
 
lurker's comment: Is it actually possible for those borders to be shaped that way? It looks like it's two tiles wide...
 
Ok I'm on board with the no GL, I was worried about the culture so I see the sense in it. But we should do library first, then MM, if we can -- the lib will give us +50% of our GA beakers; 7 extra turns of that is a lot. But that will be determined by our lit research rate, which we'll see when we get there. If we can't get lit in time, we'll have to do MoM first. I'm no good at calculating that far ahead...our GA republic with colossus bpt will be what, almost triple what we have now? Lit in 6 or 7?

Green borders! I see 'em...

Edit: @Tomoyo -- that is 2 screenies pasted one on top of the other. Also, Mathias, I can't see those borders in my game, but they're pretty clear in your screenshot there.
 
It's just my monitor at home; it's not all that fantastic. I can see the borders here at work, even in the screenshot.

@ Mathias -- do you normally go for Shakespeare's with this sort of game? Being able to get an early and free hospital sounds tempting, but the high culture is detrimental, and I'm not sure how the lengthy deviation from the fastest research path would work out.

Renata
 
I don't think we need the GL, either, seeing how we'll want to be at the front of the tech race anyway. However, if we get an SGL, we could use him on the GL or save him for something else. I think Shakespeare's theater would be a good addition, but if we're planning on doing our own research throughout the industrial age, Copernicus and Newton are more important. You get those two guys plus the colossus plus the republic bonus, we've got ourselves more than 400 beakers per turn. Are we planning on switching to Democracy? It would allow us a larger army.

Edit: I just looked at the save and the science rate can be bumped back 10% and we still get Philo in 5 turns, so whoever gets it next, do that first thing.

Edit of Edit: One more thing. Why not, with our GA, build the Masoleum. 3 extra content people plus it'll generate a little bit of culture and gold for us in the future. Just a suggestion.
 
I think (and somebody correct me if I'm wrong :smoke: ) all victory conditions are on. A challenge we're facing is launching our ship before we hit 20k culture. I think that's why Mathias vetoed the GL on the grounds of "too much culture".

And yes, I agree with building the MoM with our GA. My corollary is: lib first if we can. The more infra we have, the more powerful our GA will be.

@Renata -- For what it's worth, I was assuming we'd get the shakes, er, that is, get Shake's. :banana:
 
Ok, playing now. I also think that library first (if possible) will be the way to go -- +50% on beakers is more than we'll get out of MoM-generated lux slider reduction. Need to count up shields to figure out where the workers should go once they've finished the road. Back soonish.

Renata
 
Shakespeare comes out quite late, I doubt we can get it's culture doubled, and it's effects are amplified in OCC. I'd say that we need it for later research. And it will allow us to sell the other improvements such as temple and cathedral.
We must build it IMO.
 
Yes, all 5 standard victory conditions are enabled. We can expect that our own culture victory would trigger in the late 1900s, sometime after 1975. If all goes well, we should launch our spaceship prior to 1950. Keyword: if.

Shakespeare's - That depends on two things: (1) that the AI researches Democracy before we discover Medicine, and (2) that we will actually be able to complete it. We do not want to research multiple optional techs. Although we can predict where the AI will go, it is far to early to even guess on how soon the will get there. Basically, we will either pick up Free Artistry and build the Theater, or get Sanitation and build hospital, cathedral, and coloseum.

SGLs - If we get one, we should save it for SETI. If we are lucky enough to get two... U.N., Apollo, and 640-shield SS parts come to mind. Any available SGL would also serve as emergency backup on Cop's and Newt's, but I don't expect those to be challenged. We will further discuss leaders as we get them.

Library & MoM - We will begin research on Literature 3 turns before completing Colossus. It should take as little as 7 turns to research if we trade excess shields for commerce, making library available 4 turns after Colossus. We can prebuild it for up to 2 turns, with a couple of units before that. Plan on building Library before MoM.

Renata, the Inca have 25 gold. Sell them The Wheel so we can get Philo in 5 turns. Damn, she's already playing... I hope she's telepathic.
 
LOL. :) Not telepathic, didn't want to sell so cheaply, but got Philo in 5 anyway. Turns went well; only major problem was some barb interference that delayed some worker tasks. But it wasn't critical. Will post turnlog and save as soon as I get some pictures uploaded.

Renata
 
Eagerly waiting...
 
Preturn, 1750 BC: Not much to look at -- yay for OCCs. :) Philo in 5, will try to hold to that. Colossus in 8 exactly making 17spt.

F4: We're up CoL and Wheel on the Inca; they have 25g and 4 cities, no luxes & no horses. Russia has an apparent mysticism monopoly, but we're up CoL; they have five gold and five cities. One incense hooked up, no horses.

1. 1725 BC: Curragh moves out into the sea, one archer heads for the green border (which I can actually see now -- must just have been too sleepy last night, or bad lighting, or something); other back toward London. The one heading for London finds a barb warrior to his east. 8gold and -4gpt. I make a scientist out of the citizen on the unmined hill. Each turn he isn't working is one turn we'll need to be making 18 shields later, else we'll wind up with a horrendous overrun on Colossus. Should have 3 or 4 post-revolution turns to make up any shortfall now. Can lower science a notch, now philo in 4 at -1gpt.

IT: Barb warrior attacks and takes one hp off the archer. Curragh survives.

2. 1700 BC: Scientist back to work on the hill; philo in 3 at -1gpt. Archer waits a turn to heal, other proceeds west. Hola green borders! From F10 I'm guessing it's Japan. It'll be a couple of turns yet before contact unless they send a unit out. Other civs are Sumeria, Zulu, Mongols, Egypt. Workers to the other hill; I want that done as soon as possible after coming out of anarchy, if not sooner. Hate to build swords with 28spt.

IT: Well, joy, here come the barbs. One appeared due north of the workers.

3. 1675 BC: Workers must retreat; can't risk losing them. The returning archer is still many turns away. One warrior from London goes to the mined hill. I make a scientist again for philo in 2 at break-even with no extra lux tax. Now need two turns at 18 shields to build Colossus efficiently. Curraghs have finished their circumnavigation; I'll see if I can find anywhere along the west coast that looks like a likely jump-off spot. Almost 20 turns to bring them back to London area -- too far.

IT: Russians start Oracle. Barb warriors fortifies, which is ok by me, all things considered, although it'll keep the workers off that hill.

4. 1650 BC: Say hi to Tokugawa, class. Hi, Tokugawa! Tokugawa is in rotten shape. He has only three cities, has iron-working, but lacks masonry, writing and pottery. Cathy and the Inca guy have IW, too, so they must have met in the last few turns. The deal won't last, so masonry and pottery for IW and 7g (his entire treasury). What a resource-poor start -- I see no iron, either. 30 shields not exactly critical, then. I can see two irons in Russian borders and one in Mayan. The archer heading back to London walks right into a barb camp with a loose barb warrior next door. Joy. Philo and the glorious revolution next turn if all goes well. Scientist goes back to work again.

IT:

math01slingshot.jpg


London, of course, riots. No barb attacks.

5. 1625 BC: Disperse the barb camp for 25g, no hp lost. Shuffle some units at London due to the barb there, set some entertainers and a scientist.

IT: Japan wants us out. Warrior is attacked at London and promotes.

6. 1600 BC: Workers belatedly start on the mine on the second hill. Curragh reaches a jumping-off point for next turn.

7. 1575 BC: Nada.

IT: Japan gives us the boot. Curragh survives.

8. 1550 BC: We're a Republic. Citizens adjusted. 20% lux will do us even without the Colossus or the golden age. Lit currently in ten at a deficit. Curragh reaches sea tiles and sees light blue borders. Will we sink?

math01contact.jpg


9. 1525 BC: No sinkage. Second curragh will attempt similar crossing next turn. Anyway, the light blue is of course Sumeria. Gilgamesh has 130 in gold but does not know alphabet. *smirk* He does have mysticism. He will pay everything he has for alphabet -- sure sign he's not researching it yet. Let's see if we can find anyone else before trading it around over there. Russia comes up with horseback riding.

10. 1500 BC: Second curragh makes the leap.

11. 1475 BC: No sinkage. Interesting numbers right now. Colossus due next turn. 9 gold in the treasury, -8gpt, and 7 turns left on lit. Second curragh spies Egpytian borders. First is heading north along all Sumerian coastline so far.

IT: Still no sinkage. Yay for seafaring trait!

12. 1450 BC:

math01goldenage.jpg


London is currently making 28spt. That will be 30spt as of the current interturn. Too bad we don't have any 30-shield units to build. I'll do one more archer, then on to the library. We can get lit in 4 at a bare minimum of positive gpt. We meet the Mongols (not Egypt). They are apparently the researching beasts of the far continent, as they have mysticism and horseback riding. They lack writing, though. They have 170g. Since alphabet is not a monopoly tech on this continent, I pull the deal with Gilgamesh: alphabet for mysticism and 130g. Crank research to 80%, lit in 3, will skip the archer. Switch to Pyramids as library pre-build. Which reminds me: I sell off the granary. Can be rebuilt in 3 turns if we need it after Shakespeares or whenever.

13. 1425 BC: Misclick sends southern curragh one move the wrong way before getting back on track. Northern curragh meets the Zulus. They have polytheism and horseback riding, as does Sumeria. I can get both for writing and some chump change. We hardly need HBR with no horses, but at that price? Too bad neither civ has any gold, though. Anyway, Sumeria skeers me if they get in the tech lead, so I make the deal with the Zulu for the two techs, giving them writing and 21g. Polytheism alone gets me the 170g in the Mongols' treasury. Trade mysticism to Japan and the Inca for worker/6g and 97g, respectively.

14. 1400 BC: Slave worker starts a road.

IT: Get Literature, switch pre-build to library.

15. Library-MoM. No beakers invested yet -- do we want mapmaking now that we have contact with all but one civ already, or should we go math-currency first? Archer attacks the barb camp north of London, wins (-1hp) and promotes, but there's still a horse there. Now might be a good time to get out one more archer; next player can decide. Workers on the hill will be done with the road next turn, then should get to mining the food bonuses for more shields. We'll max out at 36spt in the golden age, but we'll be most of the way through it before we get that many.

Save is attached. Whoever's next, have fun!

Renata

Late edit: We have a nice surplus at the moment; might be wise to build a few embassies.
 
Good job on the trades, except for the slave thing. I don't like slaves here. We need capable AI in this game, so robbing them of their workers is bad for us, in theory at least. Besides that, the slave is all but useless to us. I would like to send him home when he finishes the road. Your thoughts?

Worker actions: I complained about dl mining the hills before the food bonuses, then you go and do the same thing :confused: Both grasses could have been mined in the same time it would have taken to mine the second hill without barbarian interference. I said I was picky about worker efficiency... we could have had all twelve worked tiles fully developed. I'm not too much of a perfectionist, am I? :mischief:

Science: Math in 4 at 60%, we can cut that to 50% after 1 or 2 turns. Then on to Construction (7 turns) before Currency (5 turns) That's 16 turns of GA research, I believe we have 17 left.

Military: Why is that archer exploring the far west? We don't need to explore, we need military only to fend of barbarians. He is costing us 2 gpt, and I think he is too far out to bring home. I vote to disband. Our warriors can help take care of the barbarians.

Builds: After MoM, I would like to start prebuild for next wonder. Lighthouse or Wall in 9 turns at 34 spt. We'll have Construction in plenty of time, but I'd rather build the Lighthouse first. We should not have a problem acquiring Map Making after 10 or 12 turns. We may want or need a couple of units first. This will set the wonder back a few turns, and the tourism that goes with it by at least 10, but that's better than being pillaged by barbs.

I feel like I've left something out... Oh, yes. It seems that dl's suicide run was almost justified. I apologize if I was a bit harsh. The reason I made such a big deal is that it contradicted a post that no one openly disagreed with.

Edit: RE Embassies - We need our treasury to pay for maintenance and military support, and it never lasts long enough.
 
Mathias said:
Good job on the trades, except for the slave thing. I don't like slaves here. We need capable AI in this game, so robbing them of their workers is bad for us, in theory at least. Besides that, the slave is all but useless to us. I would like to send him home when he finishes the road. Your thoughts?

Do we really want our nearest neighbor to be very strong? Japan's going to have a ton of space to expand into and could wind up being a monster if not checked. Russia or Incas expanding into the same territory will be much less problematic, since it will not be productive for them. To be honest, I was thrilled at the opprotunity to take a slave off of Japan. The slave can road tiles ahead of our main crew of miners/irrigators.

Worker actions: I complained about dl mining the hills before the food bonuses, then you go and do the same thing :confused: Both grasses could have been mined in the same time it would have taken to mine the second hill without barbarian interference. I said I was picky about worker efficiency... we could have had all twelve worked tiles fully developed. I'm not too much of a perfectionist, am I? :mischief:

Well, I won't say it if you don't. :mischief: My turnlog didn't explain my reasoning very well. (Such as it was.) I wanted a road on the hill in case iron turned up there, so we could build a sword after the Colossus. And with anarchy upcoming, I wanted to maintain maximum food for as long as possible. We already had the shields to complete the Colossus in a timely fashion (as it was, after getting into Republic we wound up with 2 extra that I burned off by working the coast), so the mining wasn't urgent, I didn't think. I got burned by the barb showing up, though, and I admit that that possibility totally slipped my mind.

At any rate, we couldn't have had all twelve tiles fully developed. The hill only makes 11 -- at size 12 we're working a coast tile rather than an undeveloped grassland.

Science: Math in 4 at 60%, we can cut that to 50% after 1 or 2 turns. Then on to Construction (7 turns) before Currency (5 turns) That's 16 turns of GA research, I believe we have 17 left.

Why not currency next after math? We'll get a fair amount out of a marketplace, even if we only average 10% cash economy for a long time.

Military: Why is that archer exploring the far west? We don't need to explore, we need military only to fend of barbarians. He is costing us 2 gpt, and I think he is too far out to bring home. I vote to disband. Our warriors can help take care of the barbarians.

There are barb camps over there in all that jungle and swamp -- I drove the boats past two of them. After going to meet Japan, he was more than halfway there already. He should pay for himself until the AIs get settlers to the area if we keep him, and every tile he uncovers is one we don't have to pay for after navigation.

Builds: After MoM, I would like to start prebuild for next wonder. Lighthouse or Wall in 9 turns at 34 spt. We'll have Construction in plenty of time, but I'd rather build the Lighthouse first. We should not have a problem acquiring Map Making after 10 or 12 turns. We may want or need a couple of units first. This will set the wonder back a few turns, and the tourism that goes with it by at least 10, but that's better than being pillaged by barbs.

What's the purpose of the Great Wall? Tourism only? Lighthouse I can see -- if those sea tiles you highlighted east of London are really there (can't see 'em on my monitor) then keeping the Lighthouse will be the only way for us to control overseas trade until astronomy.

I feel like I've left something out... Oh, yes. It seems that dl's suicide run was almost justified. I apologize if I was a bit harsh. The reason I made such a big deal is that it contradicted a post that no one openly disagreed with.

Such are the vagaries of succession games. :)

Embassy edit: True enough about the cash going away, but if it keeps the neighbors happy enough not to march 17 swords up to our doorstep it might be worth it.

Renata
 
I agree with having at least 1 archer out "hunting" for barb camps. As long as we are finding 1 every 12 turns or less.
 
A question: when does MoM expire?

Renata
 
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