[NFP] Maya First Look

[Wielki Hegemon]

I think all religion-focused Civs are considered to be weak because this victory is considered as dull and religion I very often skipped on the deity.

 

[bbbt]

So between the +10% and the auto amenity from settling next to the lux, your first couple cities will probably have +15% out of the gate. Obviously the bigger they get the better this will be.

I don't see the Maya gunning for a religion, but if they do, they may be one of the ones who can actually benefit from work ethic.

Governor will be a difficult choice for them: you'll probably have jungles to chop (for farms) - Magnus, you'll use a lot of builder charges - Liang, and you will eventually want high pop cities (Pingala). I'd likely start with either Magnus (if I have a builder already and want to chop out another builder) or Liang (if I am going to buy a builder to start). Pingala will probably not come until the third or fourth tile.

I find the Observatory on the boring side. It's basically campus but different adjacency bonuses. I wish it had a little something more, ala the acropolis with the envoy or lavra with the gpp. I feel that about several UDs though, Shaka's Ikanda most of all.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I don't see the Maya gunning for a religion, but if they do, they may be one of the ones who can actually benefit from work ethic.

When you do you don't have to worry about sacrificing a Campus spot now for good mountain adjacencies.

 

[Atlas627]

So do people value Great Scientist points very highly or something? Everyone always talks about how good a half price district is, but having completely different adjacency bonuses certainly can mean you're getting no science from the half-price campus. Then you have to build a Library to get anything, but I suppose if everyone is always building libraries immediately (I would) then a half-price base district is still very helpful.

 

[IvoryPavane]

So do people value Great Scientist points very highly or something? Everyone always talks about how good a half price district is, but having completely different adjacency bonuses certainly can mean you're getting no science from the half-price campus. Then you have to build a Library to get anything, but I suppose if everyone is always building libraries immediately (I would) then a half-price base district is still very helpful.

But given that the adjacency bonuses of the Observatory are plantations, farms and districts you are almost guaranteed to always have an adjacency, and if you plop next to a plantation then it’s going to be splendid. (And it’s very very likely they are going to have a plantation bias, so the first few are going to have solid adjacencies).

But also, yes, the half price district is very strong on its own!

 

[bbbt]

So do people value Great Scientist points very highly or something? Everyone always talks about how good a half price district is, but having completely different adjacency bonuses certainly can mean you're getting no science from the half-price campus. Then you have to build a Library to get anything, but I suppose if everyone is always building libraries immediately (I would) then a half-price base district is still very helpful.

You certainly will get adjacency bonuses from your half priced campus - at the least you can put some farms next to it.

I haven't done the math, but I'm guessing a half priced campus + a builder is going to be faster to produce in most cases than a full priced campus (and not builder). And you are unlikely to get the crazy yields some of the peak mountain/reef/Australia/etc campuses can get, but you might be able to get some more consistent ones across your empire versus some specific lucky spots.

So it's on average likely stronger than the average campus (though a bit boring as I've said).

I don't think it's as strong as the Seowon, but I don't think anything is.

 

[Atlas627]

I'm not saying the Observatory is bad, nor am I saying you won't actually get adjacency bonuses from it. Everyone just keeps saying "even if you don't get any adjacency, half-price district is very strong". Why do people feel that way?

 

[AvianBritish]

Apart from maybe a scout or a slinger (depends if you want to explore your 6 other city placements sooner rather then later, or defend your 1 city and get the boost to your unique archer quicker) the first thing you will do as the Maya is build a builder to place 2 farms for 3 housing (which is enough to make up for not getting fresh water). Which, if placed correctly with the intention of building a Observatory next to them later, will give you a +1 adjacency for science to start off with before you unlock and build plantations.

And yes, even campuses that provide nothing but great scientist points is better then nothing; as if you are the first person to get build one and get Hypathia, you get a free library anyway (and more powerful libaries for the rest of the game).

Also on a side note... Even though you don't have to worry about settling on freshwater now; you still may want to try and settle on rivers if you have rice or wheat (or corn if that will also be included) because watermills provide +1 food to those farmable resources and requires your city centre to be on a river. 1 farmable resouce might not be enough to justify; but I've had games where I've not settled on a river with 2+ farmable resources and I've beaten myself over it inside because I couldn't get enough food to grow quicker.

 

[CPWimmer]

I'm not saying the Observatory is bad, nor am I saying you won't actually get adjacency bonuses from it. Everyone just keeps saying "even if you don't get any adjacency, half-price district is very strong". Why do people feel that way?

I don't think anyone is saying "even if you don't get any adjacency"

I think people are saying "half-price <(arguably?) the most important > district is very strong", regardless of everything else. People still assume you will get some adjacency out of it, even if it's not the normal ones.

Replace:
+2 Science for each adjacent Geothermal Fissure (GS only)
+2 Science for each adjacent Reef (GS only)
+1 Science for each adjacent Mountain
+0.5 Science for each adjacent Rainforest

With:
+2 Science for each adjacent Plantation
+0.5 Science for each adjacent Farm

Personally, I find that the Geothermal Fissure and Reef adjacencies come along very rarely in the games I play. And obliviously building Farms is well within the player's control (with certain terrain limitations, of course) which make getting a +1 to +3 Campus up and running fairly straightforward.

 

[Kmart_Elvis]

I'm not saying the Observatory is bad, nor am I saying you won't actually get adjacency bonuses from it. Everyone just keeps saying "even if you don't get any adjacency, half-price district is very strong". Why do people feel that way?

District production costs scale up throughout the game. Sure, the first couple full-cost districts are nothing too bad, but once you're settling your 10th city, that time-to-finish looks pretty daunting. There's a lot of production saved, and it really adds up.

You'll want to build that district in every city so it's a bonus you'll absolutely use.

You're saving a lot of production, so you're free to build other things. You're also getting your district online earlier, so you're getting those yields first, and more overall.

Compare: Full price campus with +2 adjacency vs half-price with +2. Full price takes, say, 20 turns. Half price is 10. That's 10 turns freed up for other production. That's 10 turns generating science. You would already have got 20 science by the time the full priced comes online.

 

[Atlas627]

District production costs scale up throughout the game. Sure, the first couple full-cost districts are nothing too bad, but once you're settling your 10th city, that time-to-finish looks pretty daunting. There's a lot of production saved, and it really adds up.

You'll want to build that district in every city so it's a bonus you'll absolutely use.

You're saving a lot of production, so you're free to build other things. You're also getting your district online earlier, so you're getting those yields first, and more overall.

Compare: Full price campus with +2 adjacency vs half-price with +2. Full price takes, say, 20 turns. Half price is 10. That's 10 turns freed up for other production. That's 10 turns generating science/faith/etc. You would already have got 20 science by the time the full priced comes online.

I understand all that, yes. But people seemed to be saying that a half-price Campus would be amazing even if the adjacency bonuses were screwed up. Say you started next to no plantations, or you don't have time to grab Irrigation and build some frankly underwhelming improvements. What good did a half-price no-adjacency Campus get you? Some production saved, yeah, but you wouldn't be generating anything for those 10 turns, or even afterward, because the Observatory doesn't have access to the same Campus adjacencies. You would generate 10 Great Scientist points, though, so that's why I was asking if people valued Great Scientist points THAT highly that a half-price Campus would ALWAYS be good, even if it had no adjacency.

Now in practice I doubt we will get stuck in situations where the Observatory's adjacency is worse than the Campus, because there will be a start bias to Plantation resources. I am not arguing that the Observatory will be worse than the Campus. I am trying to understand why those who are arguing that are being met with "no matter what, the half-price overcomes any other flaws".

Maybe I'm just misinterpreting their comments, as CPWimmer has suggested.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I think people are saying "half-price <(arguably?) the most important > district is very strong", regardless of everything else. People still assume you will get some adjacency out of it, even if it's not the normal ones.

I'm under the impression that the only adjacency bonuses are for the farms and plantations. You get no adjacency bonuses from what a regular campus does so there is no reason to build them next to mountains/rainforest etc. in the first place.

 

[Leucarum]

They still get district adjacencies though I believe? It seems like it'll be rare for the mayans to have less than +3 campuses and have an easier time reaching 10 pop than most. They should be pretty effective at triggering rationalism... Probably not as good at science as Korea but that still allows them to be pretty good

 

[yung.carl.jung]

I don't think it's as strong as the Seowon, but I don't think anything is.

I think both the Lavra and the Acropolis are better districts than the Seowon (whether they're stronger depends on highly you value science vs culture imo). They often can get more than +4, Lavra doesn't take up a hill you can mine (this one is a biggie) and they don't have to be placed apart from your other districts. If they actually are stronger, especially with the Seonwon bonus to mines and farms, is questionable

I'm under the impression that the only adjacency bonuses are for the farms and plantations. You get no adjacency bonuses from what a regular campus does so there is no reason to build them next to mountains/rainforest etc. in the first place.

This will be the biggest factor imho. If it still gets mountain/junlge bonus then it is extremely potent. If it doesn't get mountain/jungle bonus but still gets district bonus, then it will still be a good campus substitute. If it doesn't get district bonus, I'm afraid it's gonna be pretty bad.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

This will be the biggest factor imho. If it still gets mountain/junlge bonus then it is extremely potent. If it doesn't get mountain/jungle bonus but still gets district bonus, then it will still be a good campus substitute. If it doesn't get district bonus, I'm afraid it's gonna be pretty bad.

You can see the tooltip at 56 seconds of the First Look Video:
They still get +1 from every 2 adjacent districts and the Govt. Plaza.
None for rainforest/mountains/reefs/geothermal fissures.

 

[leandrombraz]

I understand all that, yes. But people seemed to be saying that a half-price Campus would be amazing even if the adjacency bonuses were screwed up. Say you started next to no plantations, or you don't have time to grab Irrigation and build some frankly underwhelming improvements. What good did a half-price no-adjacency Campus get you? Some production saved, yeah, but you wouldn't be generating anything for those 10 turns, or even afterward, because the Observatory doesn't have access to the same Campus adjacencies. You would generate 10 Great Scientist points, though, so that's why I was asking if people valued Great Scientist points THAT highly that a half-price Campus would ALWAYS be good, even if it had no adjacency.

Now in practice I doubt we will get stuck in situations where the Observatory's adjacency is worse than the Campus, because there will be a start bias to Plantation resources. I am not arguing that the Observatory will be worse than the Campus. I am trying to understand why those who are arguing that are being met with "no matter what, the half-price overcomes any other flaws".

Maybe I'm just misinterpreting their comments, as CPWimmer has suggested.

In early game, I don't think you would want to build a campus without adjacency, even a cheap one. It would be better to invest heavily on expansion, get that good spot, then build one, or even just go for another district, military to conquer a city or whatever. I wouldn't build a campus early just for the sake of building a campus, it doesn't matter how cheap it is. The discount is quite powerful and a unique campus that behave just like a normal campus, having for sole advantage the discount, would be quite strong just for that. A unique that is so bad, it often can't get any adjacency wouldn't. Cheap garbage still garbage. However, a cheaper campus without adjacency would still be an advantage in late game, where you might want to just run the campus project to close your victory. Being able to spam it everywhere, so you focus your cities in projects is quite powerful. At this point, you also have a strong economy, so you can just buy the campus buildings.

It's quite unlikely that you won't find some adjacency for an Observatory, though. I always take a screenshot on the turn I win and save it like a trophy, in a behavior uncannily similar to serial killers . I did a quick check on my most recent screenshots, I can find +4 adjacency tiles for the Observatory quite often. If the plantations are adjacent to each other, you can fit two +4 Observatories there. If you have just one plantation, you can use it to boost multiple Observatories and get to at least +3 quite easily, with districts and farms.

 

[Leucarum]

In early game, I don't think you would want to build a campus without adjacency, even a cheap one.

Triggering state workforce eureka is always nice. If I saw a decent spot I'd be tempted to slide one discounted campus into my early build order. But yeah, expansion will still trump early science rushing...

 

[leandrombraz]

Triggering state workforce eureka is always nice. If I saw a decent spot I'd be tempted to slide one discounted campus into my early build order. But yeah, expansion will still trump early science rushing...

It's better to just build a Holy site, even if you won't go for a religion, then get a golden age and use the faith with Monumentality. I only build campus this early if I'm planning to be aggressive or feeling like I'll be the target of aggressiveness from a threatening Civ, so I can keep my units updated. In peaceful games, I always go for a Holy Site. I would build a campus over a Holy Site as Maya or Korea, but only if I can get at least +3 adjacency. Less than that, I would rather build something more expensive that will be more beneficial.

 

[Bug Repellent]

I did a handful of dry runs with random civs settling off water to see how the civ develops during the first 20-ish turns. I would be shocked if Maya doesn't get a plantation start bias. If they do, their lands will look something like this (Notice the three +6 observatory spots and another six +4 spots from plantations alone):

 

[DWilson]

I think I count 3 +6, right?

• By the Bananas, Dyes, and Cocoa
• By the three Cocoa
• By the two Cocoa and a Bananas